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On April 13 2012 06:14 Azarkon wrote:Protoss changes are horrid. Replicant removed - okay, but no unit to replace this? Tempest as air siege unit - why did you remove the carrier just to replace it with another unit that does the exact same thing? Mothership is still gone, giving Protoss no options late game vs. infestor + broodlord + viper armies. Oracle has no combat utility in army vs. army battles. Void ray still lacks purpose aside from gimmicky void ray rush builds. Protoss air still has no answer to corrupters and vikings. This is a disaster 
If we assume Protoss can get to a point where they can use air + another tech tree, Templars can be quite good at evening that divide. Just like now, it's very hard to win as late game Protoss without using 2 tech trees effectively. Also, carriers were just bad, seeing that the interceptors couldn't acquire new targets automatically and carriers became more vulnerable than naked broodlords.
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The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
So let me get this straight, the Tempest is now essentially the Carrier version 2.0? You remove the carrier to replace it with another carrier. *facepalm*
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On April 13 2012 06:37 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
So let me get this straight, the Tempest is now essentially the Carrier version 2.0? You remove the carrier to replace it with another carrier. *facepalm*
I'm pretty sure Blizzard forgot about the Carrier because it never got used.
I look forward to the day they replace the Space Marine with the Space Trooper, who should be a low health, high DPS (low damage but high rate of fire) unit. That unit would work pretty good for Terran wouldn't it? Especially if it had an upgrade that gave it extra health, and could use Stim like Marauders. I should work for Blizzard.
Make it so Blizzard!
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On April 13 2012 06:43 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:37 NEOtheONE wrote:The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
So let me get this straight, the Tempest is now essentially the Carrier version 2.0? You remove the carrier to replace it with another carrier. *facepalm* I'm pretty sure Blizzard forgot about the Carrier because it never got used. I look forward to the day they replace the Space Marine with the Space Trooper, who should be a low health, high DPS (low damage but high rate of fire) unit. That unit would work pretty good for Terran wouldn't it? Especially if it had an upgrade that gave it extra health, and could use Stim like Marauders. I should work for Blizzard. Make it so Blizzard!
But could it also get a Shield to not get beaten by every other T1 or T2 unit that in general "should be a little better if not totally specialsed"?
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On April 13 2012 06:16 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:05 Euronyme wrote:On April 13 2012 05:53 Noocta wrote:On April 13 2012 05:39 Euronyme wrote:On April 13 2012 05:34 Noocta wrote:On April 13 2012 05:18 Euronyme wrote:On April 13 2012 05:11 Fluffboll wrote:On April 13 2012 04:42 Euronyme wrote:On April 12 2012 01:41 Kimaker wrote:On April 12 2012 01:38 baldgye wrote:so happy the shreader is gone, but I really don't agree with the phonex range negating the need for the tempest.. in the blizzcon build while totally OP the tempest gave P players to go stargate without having to build robo units aswell and allowed you to be an 'air protoss' with gateway units in tow... this is something phonex range dsnt at all allow and simply makes them a little better to deal with muta's... ...some good changes and some interesting ones... I wish they would just bring out a beta for us to play around with but by the sounds of the changes they have made and are still making, i can't see a beta being anywhere close to being ready... I don't know that I want "air protoss" to be an option. It doesn't exactly fit with their particular idiom of being an honorable warrior culture with superior technology. What? If you played the single player, you'd know that the protoss home planet has been destroyed and that they all live on ships. Protoss should be only air if anything. What's weird are the colossi and all that shit. Remove the collsi, make the tempest into an air collosi, keep and buff the carrier. Boom! Lore solved. They don't live on ships... they live on Shakuras That's bullshit. They live in ships. They have a fleet of carriers and whatnot walking around in space incinerating infested planets. That's what they do. Errrhh... They live on Shakuras mostly. And most of their Carrier Fleet was lost during the Battle for Aiur anyway. What's shakuras? Did you ever go there during the campaign? You met the protoss girl trying to kill the infected colonists a couple of times iirc. She was great. Protoss still live in ships in SC2. Shakuras is the planet where Dark Templar have been hiding since they cut contact with the Conclave. ( protoss templars and executors ) Raynor, Zertatul and Artanis help the last protoss flee the ruins of Aiur with the use of a portal to shakuras just before getting overun by the Zerg. Their fleet is largely inferior to what it used to be too. Selenis might have some Carriers, but that's all for the big guns. Go play Broodwar singleplayer again, you'll see. oh gosh I don't remember anything from BW campaign lmao. Played that like 10 years ago lmao. Well this might be the time to pick it up again ^^ I was thinking of the conclave though. The dark templars have always been the strange outcast hobos, but the other guys had the carrier as the staple unit right? Look, what I'm trying to say here with my vastly inferior knowledge, is that the carrier is one of the protoss staple units. It's one of the first things that comes to mind when you say protoss. Carriers man. They're not a ground only race where air looks weird. They like space travel and stuff. It might be worth mentioning that when I played SC:BW I didn't actually speak English in any way shape or form, so my BW lore is a bit rusty to say the least ^^ Yeah, don't worry. I'm not trying to be rude. The thing is, the huge protoss flett was something really close to the Conclave. If you remember correctly, during the Alpha of SC2, the Carrier wasn't here. It was the Tempest ( the first one, not the HOTS one ) a carrier-like type of ship with strong AtG shield who use some kind of melee interceptors. The thing had dark templar colors ( like the stalker or the Voidray ) With dragon being dark, reaver schematics being loss, voidray and tempest as the main fleet, it was a way to show that the old carrier arbitor scout fleet was decimated. Protoss was forced to use more hit & run type of technology, dark templar technology. The protoss the way you see them have been defeated, they are refugies on the Dark Templar world but they try to rebuild from that. When you take a look, the only thing in the protoss army who come from the old Aiur is the Colossus ( they were disabled and hided in the corner of the galaxy ) and the Immortals, who are the last reminaing dragoons but upgraded. There's the zealots and high templars of course, but that's the protoss themselves.
Oh fair enough. I didn't remember they got quite so decimated at Aiur. I mean you'd imagine they'd escape with the carriers right.
The carrier is still the most epic protoss unit though, and if they remove it I'll be really sad.
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On April 12 2012 01:25 rift wrote:
I don't want "cool" stuff, I want a well-designed esport. Blizzard, please stop making units that are explicitly role-specific.
Swallow your pride and use the assistance of Kespa/progamers as was planned. IP rights dispute is over.
This, this all the way.
-crossing my fingers and hoping against hope that they keep the Mothership; it's really gotten to be heavily used now, to the point where it can actually be effectively countered...-
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sounds like one step forward and two steps backwards. they saw that some things are stupid but in the end they still follow the same, bad design ideas. (long range missles for terran to combat tanks? really? the players should find out a way to deal with that, not blizzard. and a protoss siege air units... oh wait, don't we already have the carrier? spider mines in the air? that's like giving terran ridiculously overpowered Scourge that would just outright kill all investment into mutas...)
Blizzard, replace your designers with people who actually have a clue. or at least bring in some people from the community to comment ond your stuff... there are so many things that are so fundamentally and obviously stupid with sc2 design that it is just sad...
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What do you guys think about giving the oracle the defensive matrix spell? In my opinion it would actually make the oracle useful in battles and open up new strategies
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On April 13 2012 07:37 TheAppetizer wrote:
What do you guys think about giving the oracle the defensive matrix spell? In my opinion it would actually make the oracle useful in battles and open up new strategies
people think that blizzard is full of shit and should just stop trying and add in the obv. needed bw units and THEN start adding new ones.
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On April 13 2012 07:37 TheAppetizer wrote:
What do you guys think about giving the oracle the defensive matrix spell? In my opinion it would actually make the oracle useful in battles and open up new strategies
Yo I heard you like Shields so I put a shield over your shield so you can shield while you shield
As long it's still susceptible to EMP I am ok with it as long as it has a reasonably high mana cost.
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On April 13 2012 07:37 TheAppetizer wrote:
What do you guys think about giving the oracle the defensive matrix spell? In my opinion it would actually make the oracle useful in battles and open up new strategies
Din't blizzard specialy said they want Oracle to be a raider type of units, that is specially designed to take away supply from the deathball army ?
So my guess would be they wont get any kind of battle utility spell. You'll keep one or two to go disable a zerg tech building, or minerals patches during battkes most likely.
And it's already such a good unit for these two ability. Just imagine the potential in disabling a Zerg the ability to make Roach or Ling for a certain amount of time.
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On April 13 2012 07:32 KULA_u wrote:
sounds like one step forward and two steps backwards. they saw that some things are stupid but in the end they still follow the same, bad design ideas. (long range missles for terran to combat tanks? really? the players should find out a way to deal with that, not blizzard. and a protoss siege air units... oh wait, don't we already have the carrier? spider mines in the air? that's like giving terran ridiculously overpowered Scourge that would just outright kill all investment into mutas...)
Blizzard, replace your designers with people who actually have a clue. or at least bring in some people from the community to comment ond your stuff... there are so many things that are so fundamentally and obviously stupid with sc2 design that it is just sad...
Yea. Why even make an expansion? Blizzard should just give us LAN, unlimited name changes, and full screen chat channels and then go away. Adding other new features and units to the game will only make the game crap by changing our comfortable understanding of an obviously perfect game.
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On April 13 2012 07:48 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 07:37 TheAppetizer wrote:
What do you guys think about giving the oracle the defensive matrix spell? In my opinion it would actually make the oracle useful in battles and open up new strategies Din't blizzard specialy said they want Oracle to be a raider type of units, that is specially designed to take away supply from the deathball army ? So my guess would be they wont get any kind of battle utility spell. You'll keep one or two to go disable a zerg tech building, or minerals patches during battkes most likely. And it's already such a good unit for these two ability. Just imagine the potential in disabling a Zerg the ability to make Roach or Ling for a certain amount of time.
Yeah, please don't touch the oracle, it's the only great new unit in the upcoming expansion. Maybe add in an upgrade to make it a detector, so toss doesn't always have to go robo vs Terran IN CASE there's a cloaked banshees opening (un-scoutable until observer, ironically).
Toss should have a detector in the 3 branches of their tech tree. Maybe make the DT have the cooldown ability " Visions" or something, to make them a detector for a short amount of time.
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On April 13 2012 07:32 KULA_u wrote:
sounds like one step forward and two steps backwards. they saw that some things are stupid but in the end they still follow the same, bad design ideas. (long range missles for terran to combat tanks? really? the players should find out a way to deal with that, not blizzard. and a protoss siege air units... oh wait, don't we already have the carrier? spider mines in the air? that's like giving terran ridiculously overpowered Scourge that would just outright kill all investment into mutas...)
Blizzard, replace your designers with people who actually have a clue. or at least bring in some people from the community to comment ond your stuff... there are so many things that are so fundamentally and obviously stupid with sc2 design that it is just sad...
The same bad design ideas that make SC2 continue to be one of the most popular e-sports?
Some of the criticism of Blizzard in this thread just amazes me. Don't get me wrong, they aren't perfect, but saying "replace your designers with people who actually have a clue" is a stupid comment showing that you don't have a clue. There's no perfect medium that would satisfy everyone.
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On April 13 2012 06:37 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
So let me get this straight, the Tempest is now essentially the Carrier version 2.0? You remove the carrier to replace it with another carrier. *facepalm*
The carrier builds interceptors, sucks without high air attack upgrades, and does not have long range.
The tempest won't need to spend a ton of extra minerals to gain (and upkeep) full DPS, won't require as much of an upgrade advantage as carriers needed because no interceptors, will have longer range (at least long enough to abuse cliffs like broodlords do) and don't need major scripting/design changes like the carrier would need if it were to ever be effective (they can start from scratch with a cool new unit)
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I still think the Carrier could be reworked instead of the Tempest.
Make it so that its like the old Tempest from Alpha? The one that had hardened shields or something?
I still think the Phoenix should get that splash damage vs air ability it had during the previews, it was pretty cool and could help to deal with mass Mutas better. But might break the game if used against stacked overlords lol.
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On April 13 2012 07:55 HeyJude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 07:32 KULA_u wrote:
sounds like one step forward and two steps backwards. they saw that some things are stupid but in the end they still follow the same, bad design ideas. (long range missles for terran to combat tanks? really? the players should find out a way to deal with that, not blizzard. and a protoss siege air units... oh wait, don't we already have the carrier? spider mines in the air? that's like giving terran ridiculously overpowered Scourge that would just outright kill all investment into mutas...)
Blizzard, replace your designers with people who actually have a clue. or at least bring in some people from the community to comment ond your stuff... there are so many things that are so fundamentally and obviously stupid with sc2 design that it is just sad... The same bad design ideas that make SC2 continue to be one of the most popular e-sports? Some of the criticism of Blizzard in this thread just amazes me. Don't get me wrong, they aren't perfect, but saying "replace your designers with people who actually have a clue" is a stupid comment showing that you don't have a clue. There's no perfect medium that would satisfy everyone.
I completely agree with KULA. SC2 continues to be one of the most popular esports because there is no competition. I can understand that people are worried about what is happening to their game, especially when you consider the great predecessor they did. There are high expectations for this game which are not met.
On the bright side - there is no better RTS right now than SC2, but that doesn't mean it's perfect, because for me like for many other people it seems they are doing things wrong. Everybody hoped they are going to repair their errors in HotS, but now we see that they disappointed big part of community.
TBH I'd happily stop playing SC2 if there was better alternative.
I think Host Swarm, Tempest and this rocket launcher are fail ideas.
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On April 13 2012 07:12 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:16 Noocta wrote:On April 13 2012 06:05 Euronyme wrote:On April 13 2012 05:53 Noocta wrote:On April 13 2012 05:39 Euronyme wrote:On April 13 2012 05:34 Noocta wrote:On April 13 2012 05:18 Euronyme wrote:On April 13 2012 05:11 Fluffboll wrote:On April 13 2012 04:42 Euronyme wrote:On April 12 2012 01:41 Kimaker wrote:
[quote]
I don't know that I want "air protoss" to be an option. It doesn't exactly fit with their particular idiom of being an honorable warrior culture with superior technology. What? If you played the single player, you'd know that the protoss home planet has been destroyed and that they all live on ships. Protoss should be only air if anything. What's weird are the colossi and all that shit. Remove the collsi, make the tempest into an air collosi, keep and buff the carrier. Boom! Lore solved. They don't live on ships... they live on Shakuras That's bullshit. They live in ships. They have a fleet of carriers and whatnot walking around in space incinerating infested planets. That's what they do. Errrhh... They live on Shakuras mostly. And most of their Carrier Fleet was lost during the Battle for Aiur anyway. What's shakuras? Did you ever go there during the campaign? You met the protoss girl trying to kill the infected colonists a couple of times iirc. She was great. Protoss still live in ships in SC2. Shakuras is the planet where Dark Templar have been hiding since they cut contact with the Conclave. ( protoss templars and executors ) Raynor, Zertatul and Artanis help the last protoss flee the ruins of Aiur with the use of a portal to shakuras just before getting overun by the Zerg. Their fleet is largely inferior to what it used to be too. Selenis might have some Carriers, but that's all for the big guns. Go play Broodwar singleplayer again, you'll see. oh gosh I don't remember anything from BW campaign lmao. Played that like 10 years ago lmao. Well this might be the time to pick it up again ^^ I was thinking of the conclave though. The dark templars have always been the strange outcast hobos, but the other guys had the carrier as the staple unit right? Look, what I'm trying to say here with my vastly inferior knowledge, is that the carrier is one of the protoss staple units. It's one of the first things that comes to mind when you say protoss. Carriers man. They're not a ground only race where air looks weird. They like space travel and stuff. It might be worth mentioning that when I played SC:BW I didn't actually speak English in any way shape or form, so my BW lore is a bit rusty to say the least ^^ Yeah, don't worry. I'm not trying to be rude. The thing is, the huge protoss flett was something really close to the Conclave. If you remember correctly, during the Alpha of SC2, the Carrier wasn't here. It was the Tempest ( the first one, not the HOTS one ) a carrier-like type of ship with strong AtG shield who use some kind of melee interceptors. The thing had dark templar colors ( like the stalker or the Voidray ) With dragon being dark, reaver schematics being loss, voidray and tempest as the main fleet, it was a way to show that the old carrier arbitor scout fleet was decimated. Protoss was forced to use more hit & run type of technology, dark templar technology. The protoss the way you see them have been defeated, they are refugies on the Dark Templar world but they try to rebuild from that. When you take a look, the only thing in the protoss army who come from the old Aiur is the Colossus ( they were disabled and hided in the corner of the galaxy ) and the Immortals, who are the last reminaing dragoons but upgraded. There's the zealots and high templars of course, but that's the protoss themselves. Oh fair enough. I didn't remember they got quite so decimated at Aiur. I mean you'd imagine they'd escape with the carriers right. The carrier is still the most epic protoss unit though, and if they remove it I'll be really sad.
that was pretty interesting, i always thought of protoss the way you did and sincerely wanted an air fleet (still want it because toss air-units have a real cool design).
but to be honest i think they failed with their concept. i mean ofc, the warp-in, stalker and warp prisms are clear harass-oriented, but the low-damage-high-hp-high-cost-concept and the more mobile mid-game-armies of the other races kinda ruin that.
overall the changes are pretty nice. does anybody know where they get the data from? I want to volunteer^^
only the idea of a terran siege-missile imo sounds horrible. if you give terran a unit that counters tanks, marines (and medivacs) will be the only played unit left in tvt. apart from that it would break tvp as well, giving terran a possibility to make further use of the banshee-tank-bio composition by removing colossi (how is a counter to tanks not supposed to counter colossus?) out of the way and giving an even stronger position at the base of the toss-ramp. the only possibility to make it playable would be to give toss a faster counter to marines or by nerfing them, so that toss can fight the bio-ball when the tanks arent in siege mode yet. which would maybe result in terran armies not to be composed of 90% marines in all matchups.
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4713 Posts
On April 13 2012 08:01 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:37 NEOtheONE wrote:The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
So let me get this straight, the Tempest is now essentially the Carrier version 2.0? You remove the carrier to replace it with another carrier. *facepalm* The carrier builds interceptors, sucks without high air attack upgrades, and does not have long range. The tempest won't need to spend a ton of extra minerals to gain (and upkeep) full DPS, won't require as much of an upgrade advantage as carriers needed because no interceptors, will have longer range (at least long enough to abuse cliffs like broodlords do) and don't need major scripting/design changes like the carrier would need if it were to ever be effective (they can start from scratch with a cool new unit)
Its still idiotic that they replaced the carrier with a ship that technically does the exact same thing a carrier is supposed to do, instead of fixing the carrier itself.
Carrier range could be increased a bit, interceptors made to continue attacking until they kill a target, interceptors made unkillable, damage of interceptors changed from 2 attacks of 5 to 1 attack of 10, or something similar, and make carriers start with full interceptors that auto-build faster then now. The required changes are not hard at all to implement and its a real damn shame that Blizzard didn't even try once in SC2 to fix the carrier, and instead continued chasing ghosts and experimenting with idiotic concepts no one wants.
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Maybe if the carrier had that shield ability to protect it against ground, but maybe phoenixes were buffed vs non-light air units (vikings and corruptors,) so they could be used together to make a strong composition, supported by stalkers or whatever.
A colossus nerf would help the carrier, as well. I kinda want the colossus to fire at the point of the target and not move it's beams if the unit moves, so it could be more dodgeable, sort of like the lurker. This would add more micro. You could also give it an attack ground ability so it can be used more effectively as well, and maybe used to control space a little bit.
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EPT
