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Australia528 Posts
Gerrard (Prime Coach, Park, Oi Shik)
+ Show Spoiler + You have won GSTL in Las Vegas, how do you feel? The reality of it hasn’t hit yet. I am grateful to MarineKing for performing so well. Also, I am very happy that Prime was the team to win the first team tournament to be held overseas. When did you decide that the victory was yours? Frankly, a bit of a mishap did happen to MKP but after the verdict, I knew that MKP would clean up for us. Today is a day to be very joyous but in one corner of my mind, I feel uncomfortable because of the misfortune that happened today. MKP was in an unfavourable position when the game disconnected and on such a major stage, careful consideration was needed. Meanwhile, if it really were a case where MKP had no chance of coming back, we were ready to admit STParting’s victory. We checked the replay with this mindset. Checking the replay, it seemed that an overwhelming victory in favour of Parting could not be determined and MKP stood a chance. I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. If you were to pick this season’s winning factor? I’ve already said in a previous interview, but if our team didn’t win, it would have been for my lack of talent. I believed in my players that much and they all worked so hard under hard conditions. Coming to Las Vegas meant that the players had trouble overcoming jet lag but all the players did their best til the end which is why we won today. MKP was sent out earlier than expected As BboongBboong lost in set 3, I decided use a Terran. Parting was catching momentum so he needed to be stopped. I could have potentially sent out GhostKing or Marineking but in the end decided that MKP stood the best chance of winning so after a discussion with the two players, MKP was decided to play. With this season’s victory, you have achieved what you could not last season finishing in second place. Now, Prime only needs to be recognised as one of the greats. Our team was established during the best days so I think we are indeed one of the greats. We did fall a bit behind the other teams during the beta even while posting some results with select key players such as MKP but we could never set up that image as one of the most powerful teams. However, I never once thought our team was weak. Our players knew that our team was strong so they played with pride. We were finally able to show our true selves this season. If you had to pick an MVP for this season’s victory? Every single member of our team worked to hold this victory in our hands. The biggest factor was MKP. Despite being young, he’s playing a huge role in our team and is very mature. His goals and aspirations as a gamer are also grand. Prime has a lot more to show and with MKP’s MLG wins and today’s GSTL victory, I think it has begun.
If there’s anything you want to improve for next season to defend your title While Prime did win this season, there’s a lot to work on. Every player has to work hard to realise their own dreams. Also, we need to build up our Protoss line up around Creator. We have ClassicPrime but he is not enough both skill and results wise. If we bolster our Protoss line up, we will do great next season too. Anything to add First and foremost, I want to thank the fans who are supporting Prime and eSports even overseas. I am grateful to my players who believed in me and followed me. I cannot take credit for any of this. It was my players who made this possible. We will use this victory as a stepping stone for greater things in the future. I want to thank TteSports and OCZ who made it possible for us to come to Las Vegas. Also, I want to thank the GomTV staff and the fans who came to cheer us on.
Source: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=1148143
MarineKingPrime
+ Show Spoiler + Your game against Parting resulted in a regame verdict because of a disconnect In the game in question, I was ahead until the midgame but because of carelessness, I was about to be overtaken. As I was fighting my heart out trying to come back, the disconnect occurred. This was the first time I’ve experienced this as a progamer so I was dismayed and bewildered. Even after the regame verdict, I couldn’t bring myself together. I think I began the regame with a numb mind. Afterwards, I gathered myself and finally played properly. Your game against bomber was a nail-biter ending in a base trade After my regame against Parting, my head was filled with a million thoughts. It was a really hard time and that’s why I was so lost. I think that’s why the game was so hard. In that moment of being driven into a corner and seeing Bomber do his mule ceremony, I made up my mind. The only way I could make it up to the fans was to try my very best. So, I made sure to concentrate and work towards my team’s victory, and this resulted in our win. With this season’s victory, you have claimed all most-win titles During my progaming career, I have gone through both peaks and slumps. During the hard times, I worried to myself if I would ever be as good as I once was but nowadays, I believe that I can be. Always taking second place, my image as a second place player was becoming set and I myself felt like I hit a wall and could never take first place. But lately, even I feel that my momentum is strong and the other players seem to acknowledge this. With this, I am posting results in various tournaments. With today’s victory, I am convinced I can become the greatest player in Starcraft 2. Mike Morhaime picked you as his favourite player There are so many people who like me. I even feel like I am undeserving of so much love and support. However, I just want to say there’s more that I want to show my fans. I will put everything on the line so that I can live up to the expectations of my fans. Your escape from the Kong line is imminent GSL, wait for me! I will take this season’s victor’s trophy. I am more confident than in any other season. I can feel the victory. You will compete in the round of 8 in IPL4 straight away tomorrow I grew as a player even as I played today. It now feels weird to be losing. I can win against anyone. If you were to pick rivals for IPL4?
If I beat Nestea and Polt, I will win no matter what Anything to add? The people in my mind right now are Prime members. It’s because I have been Prime for the longest. I want my team to celebrate and enjoy the fact that our team won. I also want to thank the coach who led our team. He is the person I rely on the most in my progaming career and he is massive help. I need his help in the future too. Working off this victory, I would like teammates to try even harder so that our team becomes the best and worthy of the name Prime.
Source: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=1148147
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gracias para this translation. And wow, Gerard putting money (err, job) where his mouth is.
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I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding.
I'm really hoping GOM releases the replay.
If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
I seriously doubt he will resign.
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United States97248 Posts
"If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. " wow that's a pretty bold statement. Glad to see Gerrard being so honest though. It's a shame that this had to happen in the finals. congrats to Prime, still. The games are over and they are the winners! Good luck in the next GSTL season!
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I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this.
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prime looking for a new toss maybe?
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I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Hm..I hope he doesn't regret saying that. I guess it's good that he's speaking out on what he believes in tho.
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wow he said he would resign if there's enough bad press... that's kind of depressing to hear.
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Wow, Gerard really putting himself on the line. What a guy.
Thanks for the interview!
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Thanks for the fast translation. I can't wait to see interviews from MKP, Parting, and the ST coach.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 08 2012 15:08 storywriter wrote:
I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Thanks for the interview, even if Parting did deserve the win, I doubt that's necessary, but sucks that the accomplishment had to be disputed because of the dc.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. Looks like Prime has an opening in their head coach position I suppose.
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I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
If this is a literal translation I find that this sense of honour may be misplaced. I don't believe this is an appropriate reason to resign at all.
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On April 08 2012 15:13 Daogin wrote: I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this.
Just shows the toxicity of a community driven by rage and the desire to bring people down in the name of vain justice.
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On April 08 2012 15:17 Akio00 wrote: Thanks for the fast translation. I can't wait to see interviews from MKP, Parting, and the ST coach. They usually only interview the winners due to politeness.
If I were ST coach, I would be furious, and if I were Parting, I'd be way too depressed right now.
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Australia528 Posts
On April 08 2012 15:17 Akio00 wrote: Thanks for the fast translation. I can't wait to see interviews from MKP, Parting, and the ST coach. Umm, while MKP's is coming, I think they only do these interviews for the winners so don't hold your breath for Parting and ST. Just maybe, they'll do a special one considering the circumstances.
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nooooo Gerrard, don't resign, please >.<. Prime will fall apart if you do.
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He's just making StarTale look bad for enforcing fair games.
Oh, well, they are winners, let's think they "deserved it" and let it go.
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On April 08 2012 15:12 udgnim wrote:I'm really hoping GOM releases the replay. Show nested quote +If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. I seriously doubt he will resign. I think he's actually more of saying "IF GOM releases the replay, and the fans still think Parting deserved the win after carefully reviewing it, only then he will resign"
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No Gerrad dont resign. Re-game was GOM's decision and LAN was blizzard's. Did anyone seriously expect MKP to throw that second game?
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On April 08 2012 15:19 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:13 Daogin wrote: I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this. Just shows the toxicity of a community driven by rage and the desire to bring people down in the name of vain justice.
Amazing how people like you can turn outrage over an extremely controversial and highly disputed, questionable decision into "vain justice".
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Australia528 Posts
sorry guys, slight mistranslation "If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach" should have been "If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach". Main difference is that Gerrard also addresses the team Startale. Fixed in OP
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So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting.
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United States7483 Posts
I don't think anyone wants Gerrard to resign over this, they're just mad that Startale got completely robbed.
It's Gerrard's job to do what he can to help his team, just like it's MKP's job to win for his team. The only one at fault is GOM.
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On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame?
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Why would the Prime Coach resign? Resigning over this would be absurd. It's up to the people running the tournament, Gom, to make the right call.
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Anyone who assumes that Gerrard's gonna quit after reading this is a nutcase and a fool.
If he actually quits because of this, I'm quitting TL for good.
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On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame?
He said in interview that he checked the replay and thinks marineking can win, when they think their player can win of coz they will insist a regame. If he never insisted a regame then he wouldnt need to say all those resign nonsense coz he would have no part in making the decision.
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Australia528 Posts
On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame? There is nothing in the interview that definitely says that Prime insisted the regame. However, if a coach believes that his player stood a chance (and Gerrard certainly seems to), I wouldn't be surprised at all if he expressed this opinion to the decision makers and rightly so.
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On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting.
It says that that they were ready to forfeit the game if they felt that MKP had no chance to win.
And do you not remember in Homestory Cup 4 where MKP was winning against Violet and the game dropped? He was the one who called for the regame then.
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On April 08 2012 15:29 storywriter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame? There is nothing in the interview that definitely says that Prime insisted the regame. However, if a coach believes that his player stood a chance (and Gerrard certainly seems to), I wouldn't be surprised at all if he expressed this opinion to the decision makers and rightly so.
it's not to say the other team wouldnt have done the same... He could be sharing his P.O.V. from what the referees saw, who knows..
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On April 08 2012 15:23 storywriter wrote: sorry guys, slight mistranslation "If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach" should have been "If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach". Main difference is that Gerrard also addresses the team Startale. Fixed in OP Check how it sounds. "If loser's team will complain I will resign". It just says "I will not resign, but if they will complain it will make them look bullies".
Nice move, buddy. I hope you will resign.
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On April 08 2012 15:23 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:19 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 08 2012 15:13 Daogin wrote: I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this. Just shows the toxicity of a community driven by rage and the desire to bring people down in the name of vain justice. Amazing how people like you can turn outrage over an extremely controversial and highly disputed, questionable decision into "vain justice". Crucifying Gerrard would be vain justice. It wasn't his decision, nor his fault. To force the issue with his resignation would be ridiculous.
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On April 08 2012 15:30 Daogin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:29 storywriter wrote:On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame? There is nothing in the interview that definitely says that Prime insisted the regame. However, if a coach believes that his player stood a chance (and Gerrard certainly seems to), I wouldn't be surprised at all if he expressed this opinion to the decision makers and rightly so. it's not to say the other team wouldnt have done the same... He could be sharing his P.O.V. from what the referees saw, who knows.. But ST nor any other team was put in this position. This was Prime. Come up with another straw man, please.
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People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win.
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On April 08 2012 15:32 Jacobs Ladder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:23 HolyArrow wrote:On April 08 2012 15:19 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 08 2012 15:13 Daogin wrote: I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this. Just shows the toxicity of a community driven by rage and the desire to bring people down in the name of vain justice. Amazing how people like you can turn outrage over an extremely controversial and highly disputed, questionable decision into "vain justice". Crucifying Gerrard would be vain justice. It wasn't his decision, nor his fault. To force the issue with his resignation would be ridiculous.
I agree that crucifying Gerard would be ridiculous, though if the replay is released and people do decide that Parting had it in the bag, it'll reflect extremely badly on him. What I was mainly referring to was the notion that people actually dispute the outrage over the regame decision. The outrage is completely understandable and justified.
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I think the most fair thing to have done would have been to declare that match null and void, bench both players, and have both teams pick a new player to continue. They can cycle in MKP and Parting again, but it would help dispel some controversy. They'd both be on the back foot at that point due to a fresh player who has no idea whom they're facing.
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On April 08 2012 15:23 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:19 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 08 2012 15:13 Daogin wrote: I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this. Just shows the toxicity of a community driven by rage and the desire to bring people down in the name of vain justice. Amazing how people like you can turn outrage over an extremely controversial and highly disputed, questionable decision into "vain justice".
Taking down Gerrard is totally the right thing to do right now, right? Not an example of vain justice at all is it?
My post was in part directed to the outrage being displayed in the LR thread, as well. Try to take things in context.
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Gerrard insisted on re-game, even after clear loss of his player. It is just stupid how much power fanbase can give.
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Crucifying Gerrard would be vain justice. It wasn't his decision, nor his fault. To force the issue with his resignation would be ridiculous.
If he didn't want to resign he shouldn't have made that statement. I wouldn't blame him if he said "Hey I'm the coach and have to look out for my team, so I followed the ruling that was given by the organization."
Instead he is framing it in a way where he believes the decision was a correct one, and is willing to stake his job and reputation on it. Well, too bad most people will not agree with him and now he has to eat his words or resign as he said he would.
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On April 08 2012 15:32 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:23 storywriter wrote: sorry guys, slight mistranslation "If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach" should have been "If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach". Main difference is that Gerrard also addresses the team Startale. Fixed in OP Check how it sounds. "If loser's team will complain I will resign". It just says "I will not resign, but if they will complain it will make them look bullies". Nice move, buddy. I hope you will resign. Yeah, honestly, he won't resign, because there is no way ST will press the issue (it will make them look like sore tools, they are better off taking this defeat with an asterisk), and there's no way to prove that enough fans will complain anyways even if they do. ST doesn't have any super-popular players after all, nobody like MMA/DRG/MKP on their team, so not many fans.
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On April 08 2012 15:30 Daogin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:29 storywriter wrote:On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame? There is nothing in the interview that definitely says that Prime insisted the regame. However, if a coach believes that his player stood a chance (and Gerrard certainly seems to), I wouldn't be surprised at all if he expressed this opinion to the decision makers and rightly so. it's not to say the other team wouldnt have done the same... He could be sharing his P.O.V. from what the referees saw, who knows..
a more experienced organization would definitely gave parting the win. look at what kespa did to flash vs jaedong, flash was in much less disadvantage but was still given the loss.
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On April 08 2012 15:33 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:30 Daogin wrote:On April 08 2012 15:29 storywriter wrote:On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame? There is nothing in the interview that definitely says that Prime insisted the regame. However, if a coach believes that his player stood a chance (and Gerrard certainly seems to), I wouldn't be surprised at all if he expressed this opinion to the decision makers and rightly so. it's not to say the other team wouldnt have done the same... He could be sharing his P.O.V. from what the referees saw, who knows.. But ST nor any other team was put in this position. This was Prime. Come up with another straw man, please.
i was talking about insisting on a win... your telling me ST was like "yea lets re-game"? instead of "parting won"
On April 08 2012 15:36 MaNaVoId wrote: a more experienced organization would definitely gave parting the win. look at what kespa did to flash vs jaedong, flash was in much less disadvantage but was still given the loss.
Im not saying the decision was proper, nor am I saying it was wrong... It isn't my call, it was the ref's. Everyone will be bias in some way about who deserved what, end of story. It's just sad it's causing so much shit.
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Sure he can talk the talk, but can he walk the walk?
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On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win.
Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players.
If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again.
If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people.
It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity".
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On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity".
Exactly, there is almost no situation in sc2 in which a player cannot win 100%, even if i have 1 marine and you have 10 zealots, you can suddenly make a huge blunder to choose to not attack and play defensively and i can slowly engineer a comeback. Possible? Yes, but what are the chances? 0.0000001%
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On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity". Cute wall of text.
It is especially easy for experts to judge if they are trying to "make fans happy" and not "make a fair call", right?
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On April 08 2012 15:35 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:23 HolyArrow wrote:On April 08 2012 15:19 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 08 2012 15:13 Daogin wrote: I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
Wow... Thats all i have to say to that. Kind of sad if people force this. Just shows the toxicity of a community driven by rage and the desire to bring people down in the name of vain justice. Amazing how people like you can turn outrage over an extremely controversial and highly disputed, questionable decision into "vain justice". Taking down Gerrard is totally the right thing to do right now, right? Not an example of vain justice at all is it? My post was in part directed to the outrage being displayed in the LR thread, as well. Try to take things in context.
Well, first of all, check out my post above. I don't think Gerard should be "crucified" over this at all, and in that sense we have a misunderstanding.
However, consider this, although it may be an uncomfortable consideration for any Prime fan:
Why was the regame decision made? Ideally, the most fair decision relies solely on the state of the game: Was Parting in an insurmountable lead? I don't know the answer to that question, though evidence that I've seen makes me inclined to say yes (though this has been discussed to death, and that's not the point I'm trying to make right now).
However, the decision might have been influenced by other factors, such as audience pressure, GOM's inclination to have more games, and coach input. I have no idea what really happened with the decision-making process, but I do know that Startale's coach was not okay with it, as evidenced by Tyler's post a while ago. The main point I'm trying to make here is that if a combination of other factors unrelated to the actual state of the game caused the re-game decision to be made, and Prime's coach encouraged or simply went along with that decision out of convenience, it will reflect extremely badly on him because it shows that he simply took advantage of the situation to get a regame. I'm not saying that this actually happened; I don't know. But it's well within the realm of possibility, and I'm eager to see the story unfold as people begin speaking out. I'd love to see the Startale coach's perspective on this, along with the perspectives of Korean netizens.
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I feel like what the Prime coach said is actually a good move to distance the controversy from MKP as well as the rest of the team. It's a good move and I like that.
I've much respect for what he has just done, putting himself in his position. As long as he keeps to his words.
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It is especially easy for experts to judge if they are trying to "make fans happy" and not "make a fair call", right?
Didn't know a couple lines qualified as a wall of text now.
And I don't even know what you're getting at. I didn't even mention if I thought the call was fair or not, just disagreed with regaming everytime a game is not 100% won.
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On April 08 2012 15:45 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity". Cute wall of text. It is especially easy for experts to judge if they are trying to "make fans happy" and not "make a fair call", right?
I feel that his post communicated an idea well. He didn't really take a side on the matter, but he made a good point. As a viewer, I feel that Parting had at least a 90% chance to win, but I'm not certain. Hopefully GomTV releases the replay for this so us viewers can see what exactly the situation was, but I don't think they will.
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As if a replay release would change anyone's mind.
Everyone on either side already has their minds made up. No objective analysis would ever be done.
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Australia528 Posts
People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (when it's already half ruined because of things that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first.
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every big event at some points has its controversy. I mean regular sports always blame the referee for big controversies. Parting was robbed but its just how it works sometimes.
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On April 08 2012 15:52 GraFx wrote:reminderedited photo to just link
You couldn't see the production tab, the only buildings that were camped were the 3 raxes not in his main.
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On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity".
the problem is how do you reduce game moments to numbers and equity? There are so many factors involved that you can't just use the graphs people have been posting around.
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On April 08 2012 15:36 MaNaVoId wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:30 Daogin wrote:On April 08 2012 15:29 storywriter wrote:On April 08 2012 15:25 ThaSlayer wrote:On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting. Wait..Prime had insisted the regame? There is nothing in the interview that definitely says that Prime insisted the regame. However, if a coach believes that his player stood a chance (and Gerrard certainly seems to), I wouldn't be surprised at all if he expressed this opinion to the decision makers and rightly so. it's not to say the other team wouldnt have done the same... He could be sharing his P.O.V. from what the referees saw, who knows.. a more experienced organization would definitely gave parting the win. look at what kespa did to flash vs jaedong, flash was in much less disadvantage but was still given the loss.
Kespa also disqualified people for typing ppp.
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On April 08 2012 15:52 GraFx wrote:reminderedited photo to just link
This is true, but you have to look at the WHOLE situation. Where are the HTs? At partings base. They are not getting up there anytime soon. Vikings were after Warp prism so i doubt that would be effective. Plus he barely had any money to make units. In addition, you cannot underestimate MKP's micro. There is a video of him somewhere holding off a 4 gate rush after he expanded with minimal units. With all the production facilities he had, even though he may lose the first engagement, he could probably eliminate a good number of the stalkers and zealots that parting sent. If there was a colossi or HT, I would call gg, but we cannot say for certain what would have happened.
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On April 08 2012 15:52 GraFx wrote:reminderedited photo to just link
this doesn't prove anything. All it shows is that Parting was ahead, not that the game was won. That 20 supply in production pops out + pulled SCV's=chance for MKP to hold attack and recover.
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On April 08 2012 15:57 storywriter wrote: People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (something that's already half ruined because of something that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first. I imagine ST might actually insist on GOM not giving up the replay, just to let this controversy roll over.
That said, I think Gerrard issuing such a PR statement is the absolute shittiest thing he could've done, because it essentially puts ST in the difficult position of acknowledging through their silence that they lost "fair and square!" or speaking up and looking like sore losers. This actually irritates me the most. He is trying to get rid of the taint of his team's victory by calling ST out on it and knowing that they most likely won't rise to the bait due to PR reasons.
Anyways, objecting won't change the outcome of the GSTL. There is nothing to be gained from giving this anymore attention.
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On April 08 2012 15:54 Cracked wrote: As if a replay release would change anyone's mind.
Everyone on either side already has their minds made up. No objective analysis would ever be done. Well, you know, "objective analysis" was made by Prime and judges, right? It's totally not biased and legit, right?
Prime did not deserve the win tonight, but saying anything in TeamLiquid thread will not change the decision of the tournament owners, nor will make StarTale champions of the GSTL, nor make us(and ST) feel any better.
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On April 08 2012 15:36 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:32 DidYuhim wrote:On April 08 2012 15:23 storywriter wrote: sorry guys, slight mistranslation "If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach" should have been "If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach". Main difference is that Gerrard also addresses the team Startale. Fixed in OP Check how it sounds. "If loser's team will complain I will resign". It just says "I will not resign, but if they will complain it will make them look bullies". Nice move, buddy. I hope you will resign. Yeah, honestly, he won't resign, because there is no way ST will press the issue (it will make them look like sore tools, they are better off taking this defeat with an asterisk), and there's no way to prove that enough fans will complain anyways even if they do. ST doesn't have any super-popular players after all, nobody like MMA/DRG/MKP on their team, so not many fans. People honestly think he did this to put ST in a bad place? No way he is doing it for bad motives. Man... the people in this world are just terrible. We really need to start teaching different values.
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On April 08 2012 15:59 omgimonfire15 wrote:This is true, but you have to look at the WHOLE situation. Where are the HTs? At partings base. They are not getting up there anytime soon. Vikings were after Warp prism so i doubt that would be effective. Plus he barely had any money to make units. In addition, you cannot underestimate MKP's micro. There is a video of him somewhere holding off a 4 gate rush after he expanded with minimal units. With all the production facilities he had, even though he may lose the first engagement, he could probably eliminate a good number of the stalkers and zealots that parting sent. If there was a colossi or HT, I would call gg, but we cannot say for certain what would have happened.
Marineking's micro is good, but there is a limit to what micro can do, for example you cant possiblity beat collossus with marines no matter how good your micro is. Similarly, you cant beat 16 zealots at your doorstep with 3 marauders even if you are automaton 2000.(marineking has productions but so does parting and marineking's productions are scatter and can be picked off one by one when the units come out while parting can warp all his reinforcement in one place.) And parting can choose to bring the high templars with his next wave of reinforcements and there is 0 % chance of marineking holding on with 2.7x less supply + no ghost against high templars.( you can micro your units out of storm, but with 2.7x less army the rest of the chargelots will eat your scattered marine marauders.
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On April 08 2012 16:04 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:54 Cracked wrote: As if a replay release would change anyone's mind.
Everyone on either side already has their minds made up. No objective analysis would ever be done. Well, you know, "objective analysis" was made by Prime and judges, right? It's totally not biased and legit, right? Prime did not deserve the win tonight, but saying anything in TeamLiquid thread will not change the decision of the tournament owners, nor will make StarTale champions of the GSTL, nor make us(and ST) feel any better. You realize that he had enough production to make a comeback if Parting messed up right? But beyond that you also realize there was GhostKingPrime and Creator left to play. It isn't like they could never have won with them playing after. Geez -_-
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Australia528 Posts
On April 08 2012 16:02 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:57 storywriter wrote: People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (something that's already half ruined because of something that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first. I imagine ST might actually insist on GOM not giving up the replay, just to let this controversy roll over. That said, I think Gerrard issuing such a PR statement is the absolute shittiest thing he could've done, because it essentially puts ST in the difficult position of acknowledging through their silence that they lost "fair and square!" or speaking up and looking like sore losers. This actually irritates me the most. Look at it this way. Both Prime and ST are professionals and probably quite close to each other after working in the same industry for so long. With the decision already made, the best thing to do is letting the winning team celebrate and moving on and hopefully, ST sees this. If so, there's no dilemma at all.
By the way, I'm not defending the actual decision of the regame since there was no way in hell MKP could have come back. But unless you actually want Prime to come out and say "yeah, we really shouldn't have taken the regame, here's the trophy back", I think Gerrard's actions should be considered praise worthy.
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On April 08 2012 16:04 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:54 Cracked wrote: As if a replay release would change anyone's mind.
Everyone on either side already has their minds made up. No objective analysis would ever be done. Well, you know, "objective analysis" was made by Prime and judges, right? It's totally not biased and legit, right? Prime did not deserve the win tonight, but saying anything in TeamLiquid thread will not change the decision of the tournament owners, nor will make StarTale champions of the GSTL, nor make us(and ST) feel any better.
Ahh, now you're going with the conspiracy theory.
Why do you think that Prime had any say in it? Why don't you think that ST coaches had access to the same replay and provided their input as well?
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On April 08 2012 15:58 slicknav wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity". the problem is how do you reduce game moments to numbers and equity? There are so many factors involved that you can't just use the graphs people have been posting around.
Sure, it's hard and not concrete, which is why it should be experts and judges trying to do it. I am just saying that the theoretical magical number so to speak should be 76% chance of winning rather than 'no chance at all to comeback', because it reduces the least amount of unfair equity change.
Nobody wants this unfair crap to happen, but when it does, it should try to be as fair to BOTH players as possible, not just the losing one.
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On April 08 2012 16:02 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:57 storywriter wrote: People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (something that's already half ruined because of something that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first. I imagine ST might actually insist on GOM not giving up the replay, just to let this controversy roll over. That said, I think Gerrard issuing such a PR statement is the absolute shittiest thing he could've done, because it essentially puts ST in the difficult position of acknowledging through their silence that they lost "fair and square!" or speaking up and looking like sore losers. This actually irritates me the most. He is trying to get rid of the taint of his team's victory by calling ST out on it and knowing that they most likely won't rise to the bait due to PR reasons. Anyways, objecting won't change the outcome of the GSTL. There is nothing to be gained from giving this anymore attention.
I actually completely agree with what you said about Gerard's PR statement. -_-;;
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On April 08 2012 15:57 storywriter wrote: People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (when it's already half ruined because of things that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first. I always thought that coaches should look after whole team and not just one player or a game. Making this statement or making the series go into a re-game is enough to make it look like PRIME desperately trying to make MarineKing win vs PartinG, as if they had no other options. And moreover you make it sound like StarTale guys didn't put any effort to get to finals. MarineKing played his usual build order vs Protoss and Parting had to create specific build that will allow him to defend against it. Looks easy enough, right? He didn't go to MLG, IPL and certainly doesn't have to train himself to play against Polt, right?
Yes, Gerrard is a good coach, he made his team look like bunch of trash.
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On April 08 2012 16:13 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 16:02 babylon wrote:On April 08 2012 15:57 storywriter wrote: People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (something that's already half ruined because of something that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first. I imagine ST might actually insist on GOM not giving up the replay, just to let this controversy roll over. That said, I think Gerrard issuing such a PR statement is the absolute shittiest thing he could've done, because it essentially puts ST in the difficult position of acknowledging through their silence that they lost "fair and square!" or speaking up and looking like sore losers. This actually irritates me the most. He is trying to get rid of the taint of his team's victory by calling ST out on it and knowing that they most likely won't rise to the bait due to PR reasons. Anyways, objecting won't change the outcome of the GSTL. There is nothing to be gained from giving this anymore attention. I actually completely agree with what you said about Gerard's PR statement. -_-;;
I agree with it too. He should have just said he abided by GOM's decision, instead of indirectly saying Parting did not deserve the win. It was a controversial win, and should be remembered as such -- neither he nor Prime deserve to have an untainted victory because it was in fact, tainted.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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I think the best decision is to let the coach ask marineking to hold off a 16 zealots 6 stalkers with 3 marauders 6 vikings, he can pull all the scvs he want, if marineking can hold off the attack he stays as the coach, if marineking cannot then he should walk his talk and resign. sounds fair enough
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On April 08 2012 15:18 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. Looks like Prime has an opening in their head coach position I suppose. Speak for yourself I suppose. We're a lot to think that the regame decision was the right one. There's no denying that PartinG was at a big advantage, but ruling a default loss for MKP is another story. But I'm going off topic, great interviews, I would like to watch the replay from this game
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Whatever the case I feel so sorry for PartinG. Him typing "asddada" into the drop sceen was painful to watch.
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I agree with it too. He should have just said he abided by GOM's decision, instead of indirectly saying Parting did not deserve the win. It was a controversial win, and should be remembered as such -- neither he nor Prime deserve to have an untainted victory because it was in fact, tainted.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
^^ this
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On April 08 2012 16:07 storywriter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 16:02 babylon wrote:On April 08 2012 15:57 storywriter wrote: People please... Nobody expects Gerrard to give up his position because of this. Not ST, not ST's coach, not ST's players, not ST's fans, not even Gerrard himself. The reason Gerrard said this is to shut people up who can't let Prime enjoy something they worked so extremely hard for (something that's already half ruined because of something that's outside of their control). I don't know about you but it seems like MKP prepared very specific builds for this GSTL which would have been hard with MLG, IPL, and GSL all happening so close together. There is no point to dragging this unfortunate event out any longer. ST must feel the same way and I doubt they feel offended by Gerrard's statement.
As for Gerrard possibly having insisted on a regame, well, what do you expect a coach who cares deeply for his players to do? Even if MKP had a single SCV left against a 200/200 Protoss army, I would still expect a coach to argue in favour of his player. If ST's coach didn't, that's his fault. All this talk of honour and nobility seems really silly to me when all Gerrard did was put his players first. I imagine ST might actually insist on GOM not giving up the replay, just to let this controversy roll over. That said, I think Gerrard issuing such a PR statement is the absolute shittiest thing he could've done, because it essentially puts ST in the difficult position of acknowledging through their silence that they lost "fair and square!" or speaking up and looking like sore losers. This actually irritates me the most. Look at it this way. Both Prime and ST are professionals and probably quite close to each other after working in the same industry for so long. With the decision already made, the best thing to do is letting the winning team celebrate and moving on and hopefully, ST sees this. If so, there's no dilemma at all. By the way, I'm not defending the actual decision of the regame since there was no way in hell MKP could have come back. But unless you actually want Prime to come out and say "yeah, we really shouldn't have taken the regame, here's the trophy back", I think Gerrard's actions should be considered praise worthy. ST will fume, but they'll let it go. They actually don't have a dilemma anymore, except for how their players will perform tomorrow on low morale, because they know they won't object.
Prime's dilemma is Prime's dilemma; they have a trophy that was won under suspect circumstances. They are trying to look past it as best they can and implicitly asking for ST's support in the matter with this statement. Whether or not it has any influence on the opinions of the fans is another matter altogether. (I think not. People will think what they will think, and this interview isn't going to change matters much.)
Gerrard shouldn't have said he'd resign if ST and ST's fans think Parting should've won. He should've said: "I'm glad the refs granted us a regame, and I'm very thankful to MKP for pulling through for us in such a difficult situation." This places no onus on ST to give an "answer" and doesn't make Gerrard seem like he's scrambling for approval.
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lol i don't really understand what gerrard motive to say that..imagine if startale and the fans demand that parting won and then what? did they just put another 1 in score so it become 5-3? they should just carry on the win imo eventhough i'm with people consider their win a bit 'tainted'. they not gonna just play it again right....?
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The only way this story was going to end well is if the other team pulled out the victory anyway after the decision in its disfavor (like, Startale winning anyway, or Prime winning after MKP being given the loss). As it is, both Prime and Startale got robbed of their true win, unfortunately. That being said, I got to see amazing games from MKP, so I'm happy with that. Gogo MKP :D
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On April 08 2012 16:28 scrapy wrote: lol i don't really understand what gerrard motive to say that..imagine if startale and the fans demand that parting won and then what? did they just put another 1 in score so it become 5-3? they should just carry on the win imo eventhough i'm with people consider their win a bit 'tainted'. they not gonna just play it again right....?
The only possible fair thing would be to continue the series at 3-1 with the players that already lost unable to play and Parting starting for the 5th set.
It will never happen though, what's done is done.
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Look, if the disconnect had happened a minute or two earlier, everyone would have been like OMG MKP HAD THAT. Then in the course of those couple minutes, MKP managed to essentially suicide wave after wave into beautiful storms. And then there was the disconnect. Seriously, who could have known what was going to happen?
People say that MKP only had 3 marauders and 6 vikings versus a ton of stuff (16 zealots and 6 HT was it?). However, he had like 13 rax (3 of which were being camped), which were about to pop another wave of units. Saying he's got nothing is like saying Nestea (or some other Zerg) is dead against that when all he has is a handful of lings against that Protoss army when 20 roaches and a bunch of lings are about to pop, even if some are from a hatch that's under attack.
Like in the next game, Bomber looked like he was screwed when MKP sieged up outside his natural and forced a lift off and killed a ton of SCV's. Still, somehow, he broke the contain and then proceeded to drop and kill a ton of MKP's workers. Given that he lost eventually in a base race, but he busted out of a situation that, to me, looked pretty damn unwinnable.
Who can we really blame for the disconnect? No one-- far as I understand, there was a burp or fart in the internet connection, not in BNet or the computer. I think all we do is say it was "an act of God" (you know, like in insurance for your DVD player). Shit happens. If you want to look at it, it was just fate.
Good play from all the players.
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Congratz Prime.
The rightful winners.
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On April 08 2012 16:52 Disengaged wrote: Congratz Prime.
The rightful winners.
asterisks
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MKP's interview which every1 seems to be ignoring.
Your game against Parting resulted in a regame verdict because of a disconnect
In the game in question, I was ahead until the midgame but because of carelessness, I was about to be overtaken. As I was fighting my heart out trying to come back, the disconnect occurred.
It seems MKP admits he was about to lose. just my two-cents into the discussion.
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On April 08 2012 15:36 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:32 DidYuhim wrote:On April 08 2012 15:23 storywriter wrote: sorry guys, slight mistranslation "If fans of Startale or the general public think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach" should have been "If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach". Main difference is that Gerrard also addresses the team Startale. Fixed in OP Check how it sounds. "If loser's team will complain I will resign". It just says "I will not resign, but if they will complain it will make them look bullies". Nice move, buddy. I hope you will resign. Yeah, honestly, he won't resign, because there is no way ST will press the issue (it will make them look like sore tools, they are better off taking this defeat with an asterisk), and there's no way to prove that enough fans will complain anyways even if they do. ST doesn't have any super-popular players after all, nobody like MMA/DRG/MKP on their team, so not many fans.
It's sad because if this had happened to someone like Slayers or MVP, tons more people would have their pitchforks out demanding answers from GOM.
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If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
A little bit extreme there!
I do believe Parting deserved the win (specially because of the 8 high templars he had which alone with storm would have killed easily anything that came out of the barracks.
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No reason for Prime's coach to resign regardless of what anyone thinks, you fight for your player no matter how much of a lost cause it is. GOM refs/blizzard game designers could use some resignations though.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
Just when I thought you could'n do worse that GSL finals, gom finds a way-_-
Is there any progamer that said MKP still had a chance? Cause I tried to find but couldn't.
Even mkp says it I was about to be overtaken.
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Looks like coach is staying in Vegas. Probably to try out as a magician judging by what he's wearing and magic he worked on judges minds.
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whos to say prime wouldnt have been able to beat parting/ST had he been given the win?
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On April 08 2012 17:18 gladsheim wrote: whos to say prime wouldnt have been able to beat parting/ST had he been given the win?
No one, but because of the judges, now we'll never know.
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On April 08 2012 17:10 pPingu wrote:Just when I thought you could'n do worse that GSL finals, gom finds a way-_- Is there any progamer that said MKP still had a chance? Cause I tried to find but couldn't. Even mkp says it
He says in this interview that he had no doubt he could bring it back in his favor. http://www.esfiworld.com/video/marinekings-post-gstl-championship-interview
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Congrats Prime and Especially MKP! I think this victory is really important for every progamer because this boost up their moral and fighting spirit. About the issue on disconnection, neither party was at fault and i believe that comebacks do happen so the re-game was really the right choice.
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On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity". lolz how much "game equity" is lost by having to play again on same map your losing opponet chose in the first place? How much showing him your strats on his map so he can adjust?
It's stupid to talk of equity all that matters is who's winning when game ends or else why do we have judges? Just regame every drop. They have judges because a loss tuned into a win is unfair just like we saw.
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Thanks for translations! So happy prime won and Mkp played so well! Hope Gerard doesn't resign though, that would suck.
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Lol we might need him to show us how to micro 3 marauders to win against 16 zealots.
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I dont like how he pulls the sympathy card by sying he'll resign. I saw what happened these guys were very heated it wasnt oh well lets go figure this out Now hes immune to any real criticism and sweeps this under the rug because who actually wants someone important to prime and talented as he is to resign
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There was just no way MKP could have won. Parting was on top of MKP's production, had the ability to warp in units in his main base and had the economy to support it, with no way for MKP to do anything about it.
If MKP had any pride he would have gg'd when the disconnect happened.
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On April 08 2012 17:27 MaNaVoId wrote:Lol we might need him to show us how to micro 3 marauders to win against 16 zealots.
he had units from 12 raxes about to pop, 9 if the 3 at his natural died before they came out. then it's a decent bio force vs zealots without any AOE
SO HARD
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"MKP could have come back!"
MKP fans actually believe that 3 marauders and 6 vikings can kill 16 zealots and 6 stalkers.
Let that soak in.
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If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. Ok, bye.
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On April 08 2012 17:39 GraFx wrote: "MKP could have come back!"
MKP fans actually believe that 3 marauders and 6 vikings can kill 16 zealots and 6 stalkers.
Let that soak in.
+ 20 supply in production about to pop. MKP showed vs Bomber that he can do comebacks just fine.
Honestly this drama will blow over, shame it taints Primes achievement. Does not matter though. MKP keeps on proving his insane skill.
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Yes lets all criticize MKP for accepting a regame from GOM that he never deserved.
funny how no one criticizes foreigners for accepting code a/s invites from GOM they don't deserve.
bottom line is half the people arguing doesn't give a shit about either teams and is only here for the drama. same with the orb situation.
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On April 08 2012 17:44 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:39 GraFx wrote: "MKP could have come back!"
MKP fans actually believe that 3 marauders and 6 vikings can kill 16 zealots and 6 stalkers.
Let that soak in. + 20 supply in production about to pop. MKP showed vs Bomber that he can do comebacks just fine. Honestly this drama will blow over, shame it taints Primes achievement. Does not matter though. MKP keeps on proving his insane skill.
You forget that Parting was on top of his production facilities, except for 3 raxes at his 3rd base. His units would be killed the same instant the would come out of the rax.
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On April 08 2012 17:38 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:27 MaNaVoId wrote:On April 08 2012 17:19 SoulReaver306 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:10 pPingu wrote:Just when I thought you could'n do worse that GSL finals, gom finds a way-_- Is there any progamer that said MKP still had a chance? Cause I tried to find but couldn't. Even mkp says it I was about to be overtaken. He says in this interview that he had no doubt he could bring it back in his favor. http://www.esfiworld.com/video/marinekings-post-gstl-championship-interview Lol we might need him to show us how to micro 3 marauders to win against 16 zealots. he had units from 12 raxes about to pop, 9 if the 3 at his natural died before they came out. then it's a decent bio force vs zealots without any AOE SO HARD
You are talking like as if only marineking has production facilities, parting has equal bases and 15 gateways with Chronoboost and a proxy warp prism. a round of Marauders from 9 barracks without medivacs are no match for chargelots and stalkers especially when your opponent has 2.7k more value in army http://i40.tinypic.com/2128lzk.jpg
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On April 08 2012 17:48 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:44 Hypemeup wrote:On April 08 2012 17:39 GraFx wrote: "MKP could have come back!"
MKP fans actually believe that 3 marauders and 6 vikings can kill 16 zealots and 6 stalkers.
Let that soak in. + 20 supply in production about to pop. MKP showed vs Bomber that he can do comebacks just fine. Honestly this drama will blow over, shame it taints Primes achievement. Does not matter though. MKP keeps on proving his insane skill. You forget that Parting was on top of his production facilities, except for 3 raxes at his 3rd base. His units would be killed the same instant the would come out of the rax.
He was ontop of 3 rax outside of MKP's natural, the bigger portion of his raxes were in his main and while parting did have his warp prism there he had no resources to warp in with.
Its such an unfortunate situation either way.
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On April 08 2012 17:44 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:39 GraFx wrote: "MKP could have come back!"
MKP fans actually believe that 3 marauders and 6 vikings can kill 16 zealots and 6 stalkers.
Let that soak in. + 20 supply in production about to pop. MKP showed vs Bomber that he can do comebacks just fine. Honestly this drama will blow over, shame it taints Primes achievement. Does not matter though. MKP keeps on proving his insane skill.
But he got away with a carelessness(he stated in interview that he was careless in first game), and bomber also got careless in a game which he got huge economic advantage but marineking got away with it due to unfair ruling and bomber did not, so prime's achievement will always be tainted.
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MKP GOGO. Man I'll be so happy if he wins GSL this season. About the regame decision...I don't get it. If the drop was earlier in the game, half the people would be saying OMG MKP HAD ADVANTAGE AND WITH REGAME HE GOT SCREWED. Now since the drop was when the game was in Partings favor, everyone says the opposite. Oh well, seeing MKP on his game is such a treat.
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On April 08 2012 17:51 zeru wrote: Why does he want to resign as coach?
Lol you really takes his words seriously? he said that just to ensure that startale either has to silently admit their defeat is fair or else startale would lose their public reputation by further pursuing in matter
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On April 08 2012 17:48 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:44 Hypemeup wrote:On April 08 2012 17:39 GraFx wrote: "MKP could have come back!"
MKP fans actually believe that 3 marauders and 6 vikings can kill 16 zealots and 6 stalkers.
Let that soak in. + 20 supply in production about to pop. MKP showed vs Bomber that he can do comebacks just fine. Honestly this drama will blow over, shame it taints Primes achievement. Does not matter though. MKP keeps on proving his insane skill. You forget that Parting was on top of his production facilities, except for 3 raxes at his 3rd base. His units would be killed the same instant the would come out of the rax.
Did you watch the game? He was at the bottom of the ramp camping on 3 raxes not in his main destroying his production facilities. The false information of this is really annoying to read as I am wondering if we were watching the same game.
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On April 08 2012 17:48 MaNaVoId wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:38 Laurens wrote:On April 08 2012 17:27 MaNaVoId wrote:On April 08 2012 17:19 SoulReaver306 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:10 pPingu wrote:Just when I thought you could'n do worse that GSL finals, gom finds a way-_- Is there any progamer that said MKP still had a chance? Cause I tried to find but couldn't. Even mkp says it I was about to be overtaken. He says in this interview that he had no doubt he could bring it back in his favor. http://www.esfiworld.com/video/marinekings-post-gstl-championship-interview Lol we might need him to show us how to micro 3 marauders to win against 16 zealots. he had units from 12 raxes about to pop, 9 if the 3 at his natural died before they came out. then it's a decent bio force vs zealots without any AOE SO HARD You are talking like as if only marineking has production facilities, parting has equal bases and 15 gateways with Chronoboost and a proxy warp prism. a round of Marauders from 9 barracks without medivacs are no match for chargelots and stalkers especially when your opponent has 2.7k more value in army http://i40.tinypic.com/2128lzk.jpg
most of that army value is in HTs at parting's bases. Then there's some units at the watchtower. If you think that 10+ well-upgraded marauders with concussive and stim don't win vs 3 stalkers and 15 chargelots with 3-1 upgrades (parting went single forge) then you are wrong.
Like you said, they were even on bases, pretty much even on production (12 rax with addons and 1 or 2 starports vs 15 gates. yes, 3 raxes about to die). The warp prism was about to be shot down by vikings and parting had no resources to warp in at that moment anyway.
And no, parting was not on top of MKP's production, only on top of those 3 raxes outside the natural.
This simply wasn't over, sure MKP might have had the slight disadvantage, but the correct decision was made.
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On April 08 2012 17:48 MaNaVoId wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:38 Laurens wrote:On April 08 2012 17:27 MaNaVoId wrote:On April 08 2012 17:19 SoulReaver306 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:10 pPingu wrote:Just when I thought you could'n do worse that GSL finals, gom finds a way-_- Is there any progamer that said MKP still had a chance? Cause I tried to find but couldn't. Even mkp says it I was about to be overtaken. He says in this interview that he had no doubt he could bring it back in his favor. http://www.esfiworld.com/video/marinekings-post-gstl-championship-interview Lol we might need him to show us how to micro 3 marauders to win against 16 zealots. he had units from 12 raxes about to pop, 9 if the 3 at his natural died before they came out. then it's a decent bio force vs zealots without any AOE SO HARD You are talking like as if only marineking has production facilities, parting has equal bases and 15 gateways with Chronoboost and a proxy warp prism. a round of Marauders from 9 barracks without medivacs are no match for chargelots and stalkers especially when your opponent has 2.7k more value in army http://i40.tinypic.com/2128lzk.jpg
His production wouldn't have gotten there for a good half minute or more. He didn't have a proxy pylon up near the front. Archons and zealots would take a while to get past supply depots and 2 repops, good micro, and a bit of SCV usage could've turned the game if parting messed up. Heck, Parting could've stormed his own zealots and gave MKP the game, he's done it before.
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If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. It's nice to see he's taking the matter seriously, but that's not exactly the correct way to go at it.
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On April 08 2012 17:59 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:48 MaNaVoId wrote:On April 08 2012 17:38 Laurens wrote:On April 08 2012 17:27 MaNaVoId wrote:On April 08 2012 17:19 SoulReaver306 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:10 pPingu wrote:Just when I thought you could'n do worse that GSL finals, gom finds a way-_- Is there any progamer that said MKP still had a chance? Cause I tried to find but couldn't. Even mkp says it I was about to be overtaken. He says in this interview that he had no doubt he could bring it back in his favor. http://www.esfiworld.com/video/marinekings-post-gstl-championship-interview Lol we might need him to show us how to micro 3 marauders to win against 16 zealots. he had units from 12 raxes about to pop, 9 if the 3 at his natural died before they came out. then it's a decent bio force vs zealots without any AOE SO HARD You are talking like as if only marineking has production facilities, parting has equal bases and 15 gateways with Chronoboost and a proxy warp prism. a round of Marauders from 9 barracks without medivacs are no match for chargelots and stalkers especially when your opponent has 2.7k more value in army http://i40.tinypic.com/2128lzk.jpg His production wouldn't have gotten there for a good half minute or more. He didn't have a proxy pylon up near the front. Archons and zealots would take a while to get past supply depots and 2 repops, good micro, and a bit of SCV usage could've turned the game if parting messed up. Heck, Parting could've stormed his own zealots and gave MKP the game, he's done it before. no proxy pylon? What is warp prism for then. with chorono boost his reinforcements could get there the same time as mkp's units come out. Yes Parting could've stormed and killed all his own units and gave MKP the game, he also can hit alt f4 accidentally or accidentally kill all his buildings to do that. In that situation, it doesnt matter how good mkp is, it is gonna take some bronze league players to botch that and parting is definitely of a higher caliber than that.
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The point is MKP was about to knocked back into the stone age if he could even get a handle back in the game meanwhile partings economy boomed and he had more reinforcements ready to go to deal even more blows. It was over for MKP stop making up bull to defend the terrible regame decision.
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France12466 Posts
I don't get why people are so upset lol. Every time there is such a situation, most of the times the regame is taken DESPITE one person being at a clear advantage. Remember the TSL, BoxeR vs NightEnd on xel'naga? BoxeR had the game so so won but even with such a situation, they hesitated A LOT before giving him the game he had 99% won. Plus here if the posts aren't misleading, PartinG didn't have a proxy pylon, MarineKing still got a way to mine bases if he cleared up the force of PartinG, a comeback would have been possible. See Creator vs PuMa game 1, Creator had a lead all-game long but kept on failling and failling his engagements and then lost the game. Such things happen.
About Prime winning without MKP, Byun if I recall correctly 3-0ed StarTale protoss in the GSTL, 2-1ed Bomber yesterday and him + Creator are probably enough to take out Curious.
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On April 08 2012 15:24 MaNaVoId wrote: So the decision for a regame is due to prime insisting on it and not purely the referees' decision? Such a stark contrast between startale players and prime players. Keep in mind that during dreamhack, when bomber had an overwhelming advantage over MaNa when the game dc and a win was given to bomber when bomber had less advantage over mana than parting has over mkp, however bomber insisted on not taking it even though Mana himself admitted he had no chance of holding (also props to Mana for upholding his integrity by admitting defeat). But the attitude of prime players are just on a totally different level. Marinekingprime has great micro, but i am willing to pay thousands of dollars for someone to coach me how to defeat that protoss army with 3 marauders. Yea marineking still has another production facility, but so does parting.
Lol I dont think you are making the point that you think you want to make here. You stated that historically, when faced with disconnect situation, Startale favored the regame approach even when they have the game won 100%. However today the regame was out of the question?
So you are saying that Bomber only allowed the regame because he knew he would beat Mana again anyway, but Parting would have difficulty beating MKP yet again, so they just follow the regame rule if it suits them? You cant just have your cake and eat it too.
And historically MKP also favored the regame approach, when he is on the worse end of the deal. During HomestoryCup 4, when MKP played vs Violet there was a disconnect during a game where MKP was winning and he also insisted on a regame. MKP won the regame but lost the series.
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On April 08 2012 18:09 Poopi wrote: I don't get why people are so upset lol. Every time there is such a situation, most of the times the regame is taken DESPITE one person being at a clear advantage. Remember the TSL, BoxeR vs NightEnd on xel'naga? BoxeR had the game so so won but even with such a situation, they hesitated A LOT before giving him the game he had 99% won. Plus here if the posts aren't misleading, PartinG didn't have a proxy pylon, MarineKing still got a way to mine bases if he cleared up the force of PartinG, a comeback would have been possible. See Creator vs PuMa game 1, Creator had a lead all-game long but kept on failling and failling his engagements and then lost the game. Such things happen.
About Prime winning without MKP, Byun if I recall correctly 3-0ed StarTale protoss in the GSTL, 2-1ed Bomber yesterday and him + Creator are probably enough to take out Curious.
anyone has the ability to win against the other team's remaining players, but startale would be hugely favoured if parting was given a fair ruling. It will be parting squirtle bomber curious vs creator byun.
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On April 08 2012 15:28 JiPrime wrote: Anyone who assumes that Gerrard's gonna quit after reading this is a nutcase and a fool.
If he actually quits because of this, I'm quitting TL for good. Quitception :O
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France12466 Posts
Plus it's not like StarTale didn't have a chance to win after that. They would be 2-1 against Prime, with PartinG having another chance to win (if he was able to secure an "absolute" victory would have been easy ya?)...
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On April 08 2012 18:27 Poopi wrote: Plus it's not like StarTale didn't have a chance to win after that. They would be 2-1 against Prime, with PartinG having another chance to win (if he was able to secure an "absolute" victory would have been easy ya?)...
? Don't you mean 3-1 for ST with Marineking out. But as it turned out it was 2-2 and ST was mentally fucked after that.
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Very good performance by MKP and in a way i guess they deserve the win. Still, even though i like Prime better than StarTale, as a player i felt it was unfair to give a regame.
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Your escape from the Kong line is imminent
GSL, wait for me! I will take this season’s victor’s trophy. I am more confident than in any other season. I can feel the victory.
^_^ So pumped for tonight!
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On April 08 2012 18:04 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. It's nice to see he's taking the matter seriously, but that's not exactly the correct way to go at it.
Hes not taking it seriously. Hes manipulating his words to the public to make it seem like Prime deserved it and startale have no right to fight that. When about more than 70% (minus all the MKP fanboys) knows that parting would have won the game from there.
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France12466 Posts
On April 08 2012 18:35 Za7oX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 18:27 Poopi wrote: Plus it's not like StarTale didn't have a chance to win after that. They would be 2-1 against Prime, with PartinG having another chance to win (if he was able to secure an "absolute" victory would have been easy ya?)...
? Don't you mean 3-1 for ST with Marineking out. But as it turned out it was 2-2 and ST was mentally fucked after that. i mean after the regame decision, they were at 2-1. I should not have used would sorry.
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Obviously StarTale thinks the game should have not re-gamed. Did he not see the coaches protesting their heads off? Why make such a bold statement after the fact.
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greats itws, hope the coach doesn't resign
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As I was fighting my heart out trying to come back.
You must have a pretty huge heart to come back with 3 marauders and every single one of your 12 medivacs killed.
From a 3-1 Startale with MKP+Maru out, to a 2-2 with Parting out and MKP in play.
They singlehandedly gave the win to Prime and they knew it.
Most likely because they wanted the clear fan favourite between the teams, MKP, to win.
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That just shows how one bad decision leads to a whole lot of more bullshit -__-
Why should the coach resign? For something he had no matter in deciding. He may have articulated his opinion - but even then he was not the one deciding the matter. Really sad imo.
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he needs to resign to making that stupid statement about resigning. Putting StarTale on the spot like that is such an asshole thing to do.
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On April 08 2012 19:52 Zealot Orgy wrote:You must have a pretty huge heart to come back with 3 marauders and every single one of your 12 medivacs killed. From a 3-1 Startale with MKP+Maru out, to a 2-2 with Parting out and MKP in play. They singlehandedly gave the win to Prime and they knew it. Most likely because they wanted the clear fan favourite between the teams, MKP, to win. Yeah im pretty sure you would have been the better judge in this case, since you could analyse one screenshot and the real judges could only analyse everything :/ I really hope they are will release the replay so everyone can convince themselfs of the situation.
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On April 08 2012 15:43 duracell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 15:34 slicknav wrote: People don't understand that an unfavorable position is not the same as an overwhelming victory. Parting was at an advantage, but that advantage wasn't enough to assume an automatic win. Just a different mindset, but you're just punishing different players. If two players are equal (50/50 to win before the match begins), and one player gained a 25% advantage and is now 75% to win at that point in the game, and it crashes and a regame is announced, it just robbed him of his 25% equity advantage because he is now 50% again. If you don't regame and award it to the guy with the 75% advantage, then the other guy is robbed of his 25% equity to win. It's not really fair either way, just takes equity from different people. It's hard to judge it, which is why experts are the ones deciding, but it should always try to reduce the least amount of unfair equity. I.e. if two players are 50-50, and one guy has a 80% chance to win at that point, and the other guy had 20%, then the 80% chance guy should be awarded a win even if it isn't 100% sure because doing so only robs the other player of 20% of "game equity" while regaming would rob the leading player by 30% "game equity".
Starcraft 2 isn't maths. The winner wasn't set in stone.
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On April 08 2012 19:56 neoghaleon55 wrote: he needs to resign to making that stupid statement about resigning. Putting StarTale on the spot like that is such an asshole thing to do.
I think you didn't see any interviews with Gerrard prior to this one. I think he is one of the most humble korean coaches out there (he didn't trash talk the ST Coaches or the team as other korean coaches love to do) and I don't believe he would make such a statement to make ST look bad, but just to emphasize that he's sure it was regame-worthy. It's like saying "I'm 1000% sure it was a regame".
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On April 08 2012 16:56 Jisall wrote:MKP's interview which every1 seems to be ignoring. Show nested quote + Your game against Parting resulted in a regame verdict because of a disconnect
In the game in question, I was ahead until the midgame but because of carelessness, I was about to be overtaken. As I was fighting my heart out trying to come back, the disconnect occurred.
It seems MKP admits he was about to lose. just my two-cents into the discussion.
Nope. Just saying his advantage was overtaken.
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On April 08 2012 19:56 neoghaleon55 wrote: he needs to resign to making that stupid statement about resigning. Putting StarTale on the spot like that is such an asshole thing to do.
Yea, that's pretty messed up. It's basically saying "Startale, don't complain or I'll quit"
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On April 08 2012 18:40 DarKFoRcE wrote: Very good performance by MKP and in a way i guess they deserve the win. Still, even though i like Prime better than StarTale, as a player i felt it was unfair to give a regame. It's unfair to give a regame, but imo it's more unfair to give the victory to PartinG. There's no "correct" decision here.
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EVERYONE
Can we keep the true enemy in sight? Blizzard. LAN. Or some feature to allow a game to be continued from the drop time.
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I don't believe MKP's situation was a sure loss.
The graph is extremely miss leading and doesn't take into account positioning, which in my opinion is the true deciding factor.
PartinG was far away into MKP's territory without a proxy pylon. He had a Warp Prism but limited resources to immediately reinforce, and Vikings where nearby to intercept it. PartinG was outside MKP's base, on the low ground camping 3 Raxes.
MKP was down in supply but Parting didn't have all his army in one place, some was in the middle and his HT where at home, he was scattered.
This last one is more or less speculation but, I believe PartinG had reinforced at home and was sending units across the map, so he didn't have warp in ready, while MKP had units ready to pop out.
Now, if PartinG would have destroyed the raxes outside MKP's main, while waiting for reinforcements to arrive, he would have given enough time to MKP to reinforce and hold easily.
If PartinG would have gone straight towards MKP's primary production he would have had to fight up a ramp into a choke and a wall that was going to be auto-repaired by SCVs, with more SCV used as a buffer, meanwhile the production of MKP coming out, combined with MKPs micro and landed vikings (after he snipes the WP, and no colossus nearby), would have ensured that PartinG trades very bad there. Zealots are great in open ground and terrible in chokes, people keep forgetting this.
Also, even if MKP loses some SCVs, he has enough orbital commands to provide a safety buffer via MULEs.
I'm not saying everything would have happened precisely like that, what I am saying though is that MKP's situation was far from a sure loss, and I do believe the refs took all of that into account when they made the decision.
While I'm sure many still believe PartinG was robbed, I do believe the refs made a good choice given the information they had at hand.
If for example PartinG still had 1 Archon left and/or 2-3 HT with energy WITH HIS ARMY, I would have given it to him right there, but he was too scattered and going up superior fortifications with melee units mostly.
I hope enough people will come to realize this and not let it cloud their judgements, I also hope people won't take their hate out on Prime or his coach and instead focus on blaming the technical problems and the refs if they really are pissed.
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On April 08 2012 20:44 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 18:40 DarKFoRcE wrote: Very good performance by MKP and in a way i guess they deserve the win. Still, even though i like Prime better than StarTale, as a player i felt it was unfair to give a regame. It's unfair to give a regame, but imo it's more unfair to give the victory to PartinG. There's no "correct" decision here. The "draw" would have been a legit way to solve it, with both players getting a score but getting out of the player pool, or removing both players and forcing to play BO7 with 2-1 if you like, but they wanted fan favorite to stay in game and therefore they made such a decision. It just made PRIME look very bad overall, almost saying "we got one player on our team that can actually win something". Same goes for the interviews.
On April 08 2012 20:51 Destructicon wrote: While I'm sure many still believe PartinG was robbed, I do believe the refs made a good choice given the information they had at hand. They just got scared of "HURR DURR MARINEKING DIDN'T LUS DAT GUIM" all over the SC2 world.
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On April 08 2012 20:53 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:44 Ruscour wrote:On April 08 2012 18:40 DarKFoRcE wrote: Very good performance by MKP and in a way i guess they deserve the win. Still, even though i like Prime better than StarTale, as a player i felt it was unfair to give a regame. It's unfair to give a regame, but imo it's more unfair to give the victory to PartinG. There's no "correct" decision here. The "draw" would have been a legit way to solve it, with both players getting a score but getting out of the player pool, or removing both players and forcing to play BO7 with 2-1 if you like, but they wanted fan favorite to stay in game and therefore they made such a decision. It just made PRIME look very bad overall, almost saying "we got one player on our team that can actually win something". Same goes for the interviews. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:51 Destructicon wrote: While I'm sure many still believe PartinG was robbed, I do believe the refs made a good choice given the information they had at hand. They just got scared of "HURR DURR MARINEKING DIDN'T LUS DAT GUIM" all over the SC2 world.
Jesus, such wild accusations. They still had Byun and Creator, both who have shown can demolish every member on the StarTale team.
Quit making up conspiracies please.
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From my spectator's perspective, Parting had that game won. However, he's my favorite player, so I might not be impartial, and they surely took their time reviewing the replay, so they should know better than me. Also, Gerrard seems to be a good, honest coach, so don't resign dude
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On April 08 2012 20:53 DidYuhim wrote: They just got scared of "HURR DURR MARINEKING DIDN'T LUS DAT GUIM" all over the SC2 world.
How about you read the entirety of my post and make an educated response before you post. But I guess its too easy to post shit when you're blinded by rage. Haters gonna hate.
Still really happy for MKP, he fought really hard. Anyone who says he got a auto-win or a he was lucky is kidding himself. MKP did the exact same build vs ParinG down to the wire, even with the same SCV save from the first game. They fought in much the same way but MKP just came out way ahead.
MKP could have easily gone for some kind of all-in and won, but he was so confident in his own abilities that he stuck to the same build. Then, even though he was being heavily harasses by Bomber and was super far behind in economy and down a base, he made the best of the situation he was in, went for a base race and executed it much, much better. In the game with Squirtle, he played great again showing fantastic decision making, pulling SCVs at the right times, baiting FFs and winning the final battle by the slimmest of margins. And vs Curious he did take a bit of a gamble, but it payed of, but that wasn't the highlight of the game. The highlight was him fighting ling, bling and infestors without tanks. His marine and marauder splits where fantastic and he just traded super cost effectively until he broke Curious.
Be angry at the refs if you wish, but don't take a way MKP's hard fought and hard won victory.
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Yeah, obviously it's a shame it happened, but we certainly have no right to take away anything from the team Prime. As one who was very Strongly voting for Startale obviously it was a dissapointment but I would have to be an idiot to blame Prime. I agree with the refs decision it was a draw too. The only thing you can blame is the internet and it's really sad for Startale, who knows how it wouldve turned out. But with the circumstances, Prime deserved this win and MKP deserved his victories. Good luck to Startale in the future though. Hopefully they can overcome this disheartening loss and make it to the finals again next season and take the crown then.
Good job to all the parties involved and congrats to Prime!
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On April 08 2012 20:51 Destructicon wrote: This last one is more or less speculation but, I believe PartinG had reinforced at home and was sending units across the map, so he didn't have warp in ready, while MKP had units ready to pop out.
No speculation. That's exactly what had happened. Parting had to attack up a choke with zealots vs marauders and scvs repairing. MKP had pumped about 1k worth of minerals into bio that was about to pop.
The game would have played out like this: Parting kills the 3 forward rax, MKP defends up his ramp. Meanwhile his bio pops and he can defend his 3rd from zealots. Parting would have to go back to regroup and the game would play out with about similar harvesters + mules for MKP.
Please all, go ahead and call that a sure victory for Parting.
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If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach. Wow, that's a dangerous statement to make. He shouldn't resign, man. It's a shitty thing that happened, but they should take as many positives with them as possible. Congratulations once again, Prime!
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Awesome job Prime! Good job winning.
PS: For all of the people that are complaining about the re-game thing, MKP beat every other player pretty soundly. Then there's Byun/Creator, which are two very good players known for being the aces of Prime as well. I don't see how this re-game translates to Prime actually losing. This community is very strange.....everyone just wants everyone else to fail. Sort of sad.
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Thanks for the translations!
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Gerrard's all talk. There's no way he's gonna resign. Parting had that game 100% won, but he can just deny it so it's just an empty statement.
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On April 08 2012 21:47 ma70 wrote: Awesome job Prime! Good job winning.
PS: For all of the people that are complaining about the re-game thing, MKP beat every other player pretty soundly. Then there's Byun/Creator, which are two very good players known for being the aces of Prime as well. I don't see how this re-game translates to Prime actually losing. This community is very strange.....everyone just wants everyone else to fail. Sort of sad.
Which is remarkable, and anybody denying he is an outstanding player is plain wrong - but he should not have played further games to begin with. And lol @ your skewed perception of everybody wants successful people to fail...
Also I think it as a dickish move of Gerrard to be honest ( in a western context - maybe in a korean it´s different and he really means it- however irrational it is either way)
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On April 08 2012 21:47 ma70 wrote: Awesome job Prime! Good job winning.
PS: For all of the people that are complaining about the re-game thing, MKP beat every other player pretty soundly. Then there's Byun/Creator, which are two very good players known for being the aces of Prime as well. I don't see how this re-game translates to Prime actually losing. This community is very strange.....everyone just wants everyone else to fail. Sort of sad.
So if you ever play in a tournament, and was just about to beat the tournament #1 ranked player, only to see him disconnected, re-gamed and beat you. But because he goes on to win the tournament, you would have just said, "Well, since he beat everyone else, I guess he deserved to beat me. I have no problems as he is obviously the best player."
If so, then I just want to say most people would not feel the same way in this hypothetical situation. Just want to point that out. You may feel that it's okay, but that would just be your opinion.
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so the coach puts his position on the line? well thats like martyring here on TL, goodbye coach!
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On April 08 2012 22:23 Polarexia wrote: Gerrard's all talk. There's no way he's gonna resign. Parting had that game 100% won, but he can just deny it so it's just an empty statement. Ahead yes, 100%? Not a chance
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On April 08 2012 20:51 Destructicon wrote: I don't believe MKP's situation was a sure loss.
The graph is extremely miss leading and doesn't take into account positioning, which in my opinion is the true deciding factor.
PartinG was far away into MKP's territory without a proxy pylon. He had a Warp Prism but limited resources to immediately reinforce, and Vikings where nearby to intercept it. PartinG was outside MKP's base, on the low ground camping 3 Raxes.
MKP was down in supply but Parting didn't have all his army in one place, some was in the middle and his HT where at home, he was scattered.
This last one is more or less speculation but, I believe PartinG had reinforced at home and was sending units across the map, so he didn't have warp in ready, while MKP had units ready to pop out.
Now, if PartinG would have destroyed the raxes outside MKP's main, while waiting for reinforcements to arrive, he would have given enough time to MKP to reinforce and hold easily.
If PartinG would have gone straight towards MKP's primary production he would have had to fight up a ramp into a choke and a wall that was going to be auto-repaired by SCVs, with more SCV used as a buffer, meanwhile the production of MKP coming out, combined with MKPs micro and landed vikings (after he snipes the WP, and no colossus nearby), would have ensured that PartinG trades very bad there. Zealots are great in open ground and terrible in chokes, people keep forgetting this.
Also, even if MKP loses some SCVs, he has enough orbital commands to provide a safety buffer via MULEs.
I'm not saying everything would have happened precisely like that, what I am saying though is that MKP's situation was far from a sure loss, and I do believe the refs took all of that into account when they made the decision.
While I'm sure many still believe PartinG was robbed, I do believe the refs made a good choice given the information they had at hand.
If for example PartinG still had 1 Archon left and/or 2-3 HT with energy WITH HIS ARMY, I would have given it to him right there, but he was too scattered and going up superior fortifications with melee units mostly.
I hope enough people will come to realize this and not let it cloud their judgements, I also hope people won't take their hate out on Prime or his coach and instead focus on blaming the technical problems and the refs if they really are pissed.
You sir, just won the Internetz
Just to be sure, I checked the VODs and you sir are correct on the bolded parts. The italicized patts are what actualy happened. Wow, How many times did you watch it? I mean, these are just VODs but if GOmTV releases the replays, then I would even call Parting lucky because he was given a rematch. I know it sounds absurd but...wow.
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Please Prime start looking for a new head coach, or tell Gerrard to not say dumb things, tha game was lost in 99% of the cases, that 1% being that MKP kicked the pc and it died like happened. 16 (or 18?) zealots hitting on your infrastructure, 6 stalkers, 8 High templars AND a warp prism to warp in your base against 3 marauders and 6 Vikings?
I felt so bad for Startale, and thing this will give a lot to talk, had Prime been 2-1 up instead they would have been given the loss.
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Thanks for these translations, certainly made me feel better about the finals. But wow:
If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach.
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Parting was miles ahead by my metric. I have yet to hear someone who doesn't play Terran say that MKP was in a favourable position, or even in a winnable position. Yeah, it's not impossible that MKP could have won, but Parting had an advantage, and a large one, at that. Parting is probably the best HT utilizer in the entire world, and he had 8 of them. That was going to matter sooner or latter. With that many, he could afford to miss half his storms and still kill MKP's army. The time it takes to move HTs across the map (Esp with a warp prism) is irrelevant given the limitations of MKP's production and the size of Parting's standing army.
I find it amusing that in every other case, Terrans will complain about Protoss's ability to reinforce quicker than Terran, but now everyone seems to be doubting that Protoss can reinforce quickly at all. Warp in is warp in, whether it's at home or at a proxy pylon. It's still gonna be faster than Terran.
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4713 Posts
I didn't re-watch the game several times, I just have a good memory, payed attention very well to what was happening in the game, and then put all the pieces together from the pictures.
You can clearly see that PartinG is moving units across the map because he doesn't have a forward pylon, and I know for a fact the warp prism was in MKP's main because I saw it move that way during the battle, the vikings would surely have taken it out, leaving PartinG at a logistical disadvantage.
Edit: To the poster above me. While normally it is true that a Toss can reinforce faster and better due to warp in mechanic, in this particular game it wasn't the case due to no forward pylon and a badly placed WP. Moving your units across the map to fight while the defender is reinforcing on the spot is always superior. Lastly and still most importantly, PartinG had mass zealots, that would have had to fight in a choke up a ramp, he would have traded badly.
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On April 08 2012 23:45 Destructicon wrote: I didn't re-watch the game several times, I just have a good memory, payed attention very well to what was happening in the game, and then put all the pieces together from the pictures.
You can clearly see that PartinG is moving units across the map because he doesn't have a forward pylon, and I know for a fact the warp prism was in MKP's main because I saw it move that way during the battle, the vikings would surely have taken it out, leaving PartinG at a logistical disadvantage.
Edit: To the poster above me. While normally it is true that a Toss can reinforce faster and better due to warp in mechanic, in this particular game it wasn't the case due to no forward pylon and a badly placed WP. Moving your units across the map to fight while the defender is reinforcing on the spot is always superior. Lastly and still most importantly, PartinG had mass zealots, that would have had to fight in a choke up a ramp, he would have traded badly.
He didn't really need to bumrush MKP's main. He just needed to camp production, deny mining, and wait for his HTs. He had 8 of them. Once they arrived, he could push up the ramp and just spam storm once MKP tried to defend.
It was open-and-shut Parting's game.
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I honestly wish the announcers had kept their opinions to themselves. I am pretty sure most of the general public sided with the announcers, and would have if they had said MKP had a chance to win. In the future casters should really not say what their opinion is. I know it is hard for them, trying to fill in time with fluff and all, but they caused a ton of unneeded drama sadly. Their opinions really sway a large majority of the less informed audience. In the end their opinions have no effect on the outcome, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20, just in the future I really think they shouldn't say anything. Hopefully blizzard puts loading from replays or something like that in before this happens again(not holding my breath though...)
Their have been plenty of arguments that show that MKP had a chance. Destruction summed it up nicely. I play Protoss, but I am a MKP/Prime fan. I believe that PartinG probably would have won that game, but I have seen way to many situations where MKP has came back from "unwinnable" situations and far to many players in general lose situations where they had the game "100% won". The fact that this was a nerve racking game that had HUGE impact on the rest of the finals, PartinG's nerves easily could have failed him. Maybe he retreats after MKP's vikings pick off his warp prism. Maybe he tries to attack the third/fourth/fifth. Maybe MKP holds in insane ways like he has done before and comes back to win.
Look at Naniwa vs huk game 2. Naniwa had that game 100% won. literally, 100% won. All he had to do was kill a pylon outside his natural(that he attacked for a couple of seconds) and the game was over. Instead he decided to go to Huks main, and lost because of Huks insane control. Granted, PartinG may not have made a fatal mistake, but as others have pointed out, a minute earlier if the game had dropped when PartinG was 40ish supply down would you have given it to MKP? I wouldn't have. Again, PartinG probably had that game won, but you can't give probably a win.
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On a side note, lol at mkp saying he will win as long as he wins nestea and polt. Seems like this two are the only one who he is worried about. Kinda sad how the last protoss and last foreigner is ignored by him. MMA fans are gonna go bat shit on him if they found out though
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Is it bad that I'm incredibly excited they're going to release that replay, just to watch the game?
Dat storm/anti-storm micro...
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Idiot kid. You NEVER escape the Kong line. If you win 10 GSLs back to back we'll still remember you for the silvers.
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On April 09 2012 00:20 draumr wrote: I honestly wish the announcers had kept their opinions to themselves. I am pretty sure most of the general public sided with the announcers, and would have if they had said MKP had a chance to win. In the future casters should really not say what their opinion is. I know it is hard for them, trying to fill in time with fluff and all, but they caused a ton of unneeded drama sadly. Their opinions really sway a large majority of the less informed audience. In the end their opinions have no effect on the outcome, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20, just in the future I really think they shouldn't say anything. Hopefully blizzard puts loading from replays or something like that in before this happens again(not holding my breath though...)
Their have been plenty of arguments that show that MKP had a chance. Destruction summed it up nicely. I play Protoss, but I am a MKP/Prime fan. I believe that PartinG probably would have won that game, but I have seen way to many situations where MKP has came back from "unwinnable" situations and far to many players in general lose situations where they had the game "100% won". The fact that this was a nerve racking game that had HUGE impact on the rest of the finals, PartinG's nerves easily could have failed him. Maybe he retreats after MKP's vikings pick off his warp prism. Maybe he tries to attack the third/fourth/fifth. Maybe MKP holds in insane ways like he has done before and comes back to win.
Look at Naniwa vs huk game 2. Naniwa had that game 100% won. literally, 100% won. All he had to do was kill a pylon outside his natural(that he attacked for a couple of seconds) and the game was over. Instead he decided to go to Huks main, and lost because of Huks insane control. Granted, PartinG may not have made a fatal mistake, but as others have pointed out, a minute earlier if the game had dropped when PartinG was 40ish supply down would you have given it to MKP? I wouldn't have. Again, PartinG probably had that game won, but you can't give probably a win.
I completely agree with you. What people don't seem to realise is that there had to be (to borrow a term) no reasonable doubt that Parting had won for the refs to give Parting the win. I'm sure the refs saw information that gave them reasonable doubt. At the end of the day, they were entitled (and probably correct) to their decision.
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On April 09 2012 00:08 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 23:45 Destructicon wrote: I didn't re-watch the game several times, I just have a good memory, payed attention very well to what was happening in the game, and then put all the pieces together from the pictures.
You can clearly see that PartinG is moving units across the map because he doesn't have a forward pylon, and I know for a fact the warp prism was in MKP's main because I saw it move that way during the battle, the vikings would surely have taken it out, leaving PartinG at a logistical disadvantage.
Edit: To the poster above me. While normally it is true that a Toss can reinforce faster and better due to warp in mechanic, in this particular game it wasn't the case due to no forward pylon and a badly placed WP. Moving your units across the map to fight while the defender is reinforcing on the spot is always superior. Lastly and still most importantly, PartinG had mass zealots, that would have had to fight in a choke up a ramp, he would have traded badly. He didn't really need to bumrush MKP's main. He just needed to camp production, deny mining, and wait for his HTs. He had 8 of them. Once they arrived, he could push up the ramp and just spam storm once MKP tried to defend. It was open-and-shut Parting's game.
yeah, he did not even need to press the issue at the main, he couldve stormed the 4th and 5th and destroy all income of mkp... i cannot say it was a 100% win because i am no expert, but i would like to believe the game was so far in partings favor that a win should have been awarded, since the amount of failures required to lose such a game do not happen at this level.
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On April 09 2012 00:20 draumr wrote: I honestly wish the announcers had kept their opinions to themselves. I am pretty sure most of the general public sided with the announcers, and would have if they had said MKP had a chance to win. In the future casters should really not say what their opinion is. I know it is hard for them, trying to fill in time with fluff and all, but they caused a ton of unneeded drama sadly. Their opinions really sway a large majority of the less informed audience. In the end their opinions have no effect on the outcome, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20, just in the future I really think they shouldn't say anything. Hopefully blizzard puts loading from replays or something like that in before this happens again(not holding my breath though...)
This is an asinine argument. The announcers are PAID to do their JOB to tell viewers what their opinion of the game is. If you don't have announcers giving people their opinions, then they're worthless. Also, if the announcers tell us how MKP has a chance and everything, but then GOM decides to rule in favor of Parting, then they might as well lose their jobs because no one would ever trust their opinion on anything ever again. And if they just shut their mouth and not say anything either way, people will think they're tools who don't minds of their own.
So you are basically asking announcers to not do their job and tank their careers for the sake of not making GOMTV look bad. I like our English casters, and would prefer they don't do that.
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What is his twitter account? I want to tell him to go resign.
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On April 09 2012 00:34 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:08 Shiori wrote:On April 08 2012 23:45 Destructicon wrote: I didn't re-watch the game several times, I just have a good memory, payed attention very well to what was happening in the game, and then put all the pieces together from the pictures.
You can clearly see that PartinG is moving units across the map because he doesn't have a forward pylon, and I know for a fact the warp prism was in MKP's main because I saw it move that way during the battle, the vikings would surely have taken it out, leaving PartinG at a logistical disadvantage.
Edit: To the poster above me. While normally it is true that a Toss can reinforce faster and better due to warp in mechanic, in this particular game it wasn't the case due to no forward pylon and a badly placed WP. Moving your units across the map to fight while the defender is reinforcing on the spot is always superior. Lastly and still most importantly, PartinG had mass zealots, that would have had to fight in a choke up a ramp, he would have traded badly. He didn't really need to bumrush MKP's main. He just needed to camp production, deny mining, and wait for his HTs. He had 8 of them. Once they arrived, he could push up the ramp and just spam storm once MKP tried to defend. It was open-and-shut Parting's game. yeah, he did not even need to press the issue at the main, he couldve stormed the 4th and 5th and destroy all income of mkp... i cannot say it was a 100% win because i am no expert, but i would like to believe the game was so far in partings favor that a win should have been awarded, since the amount of failures required to lose such a game do not happen at this level.
Just look at the game right after MKP vs Parting, MKP vs Bomber. There were some SERIOUS mistakes made that game by both players that if you DC'd the game at 3 different points the outcome could've been for a different player each time. We love SC because anything can happen at any moment simply due to the 100's of decisions players have to make every couple of minutes. The amount of pressure they are under is amazing and stress makes people do strange things. Yet when DC's happen people act like it's a forgone conclusion what will take place in the next 2-5 minutes. Nothing is a guarantee in this game.
Reminds me of all the idiots that all they do is stare at Idra's supply count as he maxes on roaches and is up 50 supply only to get destroyed at the first army engagement. This isn't a race to 200/200 or a race to max bases or mining out the map, you make your opponent GG or leave the game. That's the only thing that matters, everything else is the story not the conclusion. Until that moment no game is won or lost.
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On April 09 2012 01:13 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:34 Naphal wrote:On April 09 2012 00:08 Shiori wrote:On April 08 2012 23:45 Destructicon wrote: I didn't re-watch the game several times, I just have a good memory, payed attention very well to what was happening in the game, and then put all the pieces together from the pictures.
You can clearly see that PartinG is moving units across the map because he doesn't have a forward pylon, and I know for a fact the warp prism was in MKP's main because I saw it move that way during the battle, the vikings would surely have taken it out, leaving PartinG at a logistical disadvantage.
Edit: To the poster above me. While normally it is true that a Toss can reinforce faster and better due to warp in mechanic, in this particular game it wasn't the case due to no forward pylon and a badly placed WP. Moving your units across the map to fight while the defender is reinforcing on the spot is always superior. Lastly and still most importantly, PartinG had mass zealots, that would have had to fight in a choke up a ramp, he would have traded badly. He didn't really need to bumrush MKP's main. He just needed to camp production, deny mining, and wait for his HTs. He had 8 of them. Once they arrived, he could push up the ramp and just spam storm once MKP tried to defend. It was open-and-shut Parting's game. yeah, he did not even need to press the issue at the main, he couldve stormed the 4th and 5th and destroy all income of mkp... i cannot say it was a 100% win because i am no expert, but i would like to believe the game was so far in partings favor that a win should have been awarded, since the amount of failures required to lose such a game do not happen at this level. Just look at the game right after MKP vs Parting, MKP vs Bomber. There were some SERIOUS mistakes made that game by both players that if you DC'd the game at 3 different points the outcome could've been for a different player each time. We love SC because anything can happen at any moment simply due to the 100's of decisions players have to make every couple of minutes. The amount of pressure they are under is amazing and stress makes people do strange things. Yet when DC's happen people act like it's a forgone conclusion what will take place in the next 2-5 minutes. Nothing is a guarantee in this game. Reminds me of all the idiots that all they do is stare at Idra's supply count as he maxes on roaches and is up 50 supply only to get destroyed at the first army engagement. This isn't a race to 200/200 or a race to max bases or mining out the map, you make your opponent GG or leave the game. That's the only thing that matters, everything else is the story not the conclusion. Until that moment no game is won or lost.
Sound words. Plus how many times have we seen Idra GG when he had the game won or close to it? SC2 is a mindgame more than anything else, and its impossible to predict how anything will unfold in the end. I do personally think Parting had that game won, but thats just my opinion. The refs at GOM are the ones who had to make that tough call, and I believe a regame was the smartest and best option in a situation like that.
Besides, both players were incredibly sportsmanlike about it. They did exactly the same builds and strategies, and the game unfolded almost exactly as the original had. Imo, MKP deserved to win the first game for his control and macro alone anyway... I think this GSTL went well overall, almost as well as it could have, the games were all outstanding also.
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On April 09 2012 01:13 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:34 Naphal wrote:On April 09 2012 00:08 Shiori wrote:On April 08 2012 23:45 Destructicon wrote: I didn't re-watch the game several times, I just have a good memory, payed attention very well to what was happening in the game, and then put all the pieces together from the pictures.
You can clearly see that PartinG is moving units across the map because he doesn't have a forward pylon, and I know for a fact the warp prism was in MKP's main because I saw it move that way during the battle, the vikings would surely have taken it out, leaving PartinG at a logistical disadvantage.
Edit: To the poster above me. While normally it is true that a Toss can reinforce faster and better due to warp in mechanic, in this particular game it wasn't the case due to no forward pylon and a badly placed WP. Moving your units across the map to fight while the defender is reinforcing on the spot is always superior. Lastly and still most importantly, PartinG had mass zealots, that would have had to fight in a choke up a ramp, he would have traded badly. He didn't really need to bumrush MKP's main. He just needed to camp production, deny mining, and wait for his HTs. He had 8 of them. Once they arrived, he could push up the ramp and just spam storm once MKP tried to defend. It was open-and-shut Parting's game. yeah, he did not even need to press the issue at the main, he couldve stormed the 4th and 5th and destroy all income of mkp... i cannot say it was a 100% win because i am no expert, but i would like to believe the game was so far in partings favor that a win should have been awarded, since the amount of failures required to lose such a game do not happen at this level. Just look at the game right after MKP vs Parting, MKP vs Bomber. There were some SERIOUS mistakes made that game by both players that if you DC'd the game at 3 different points the outcome could've been for a different player each time. We love SC because anything can happen at any moment simply due to the 100's of decisions players have to make every couple of minutes. The amount of pressure they are under is amazing and stress makes people do strange things. Yet when DC's happen people act like it's a forgone conclusion what will take place in the next 2-5 minutes. Nothing is a guarantee in this game. Reminds me of all the idiots that all they do is stare at Idra's supply count as he maxes on roaches and is up 50 supply only to get destroyed at the first army engagement. This isn't a race to 200/200 or a race to max bases or mining out the map, you make your opponent GG or leave the game. That's the only thing that matters, everything else is the story not the conclusion. Until that moment no game is won or lost.
Well said. I don`t understand how so many people made the conclusion that Parting had that game when stranger things have happened in many games in the past. Can`t make a decision that heavy by ASSUMING how the player with the advantage will play the rest of the game.
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On April 09 2012 00:25 Belisarius wrote: Is it bad that I'm incredibly excited they're going to release that replay, just to watch the game?
Dat storm/anti-storm micro... Haha I'm secretly excited too for this reason :D
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Awesome interviews!
I like that Prime's Coach stepped up about the disconnect "I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach."
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Wether or not Parting would have won that game, nobody can deny the impact this game had on the outcome of the final. With Parting beating MKP he would've all killed the best players of Prime while still playing as the ace of his own team, aswell as having squirtle, Bomber and Curious waiting for the potential killing blow. Being in an advantageous position, such as Parting, and getting dropped of the game has a greater negative influence on one's momentum than it would have when you're on the backfoot. Basically, MKP got a second chance ("I lost that game, so I'm not gonna let him do that again) in an extremly volatile match while Parting must have been like "I won that game, I can't lose now!", thus pressuring himself much harder. Parting clearly lost the game of nerves. MKP all-killing the rest of ST (though the bobmer game was close) wasn't much of a suprise at all
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On April 09 2012 01:22 ooozer wrote: Wether or not Parting would have won that game, nobody can deny the impact this game had on the outcome of the final. With Parting beating MKP he would've all killed the best players of Prime while still playing as the ace of his own team, aswell as having squirtle, Bomber and Curious waiting for the potential killing blow. Being in an advantageous position, such as Parting, and getting dropped of the game has a greater negative influence on one's momentum than it would have when you're on the backfoot. Basically, MKP got a second chance ("I lost that game, so I'm not gonna let him do that again) in an extremly volatile match while Parting must have been like "I won that game, I can't lose now!", thus pressuring himself much harder. Parting clearly lost the game of nerves. MKP all-killing the rest of ST (though the bobmer game was close) wasn't much of a suprise at all
Creator and Byun would like a word. You know, the two players who absolutely raped StarTale not so long ago without the help of MarineKing.
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i want to go back to the old days of Mvp making MKP look like a boy on stage
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Yeah and squritle beat Creator yesterday. Not to forget that Partings PvP and PvZ are top notch aswell. I never said ST would've won that 100%, but the outcome would most likely not be 5:2 for prime
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On April 09 2012 01:26 IMNasty wrote: i want to go back to the old days of Mvp making MKP look like a boy on stage Any word yet on when MVP's gonna make a comeback?
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On April 09 2012 01:22 ooozer wrote: Wether or not Parting would have won that game, nobody can deny the impact this game had on the outcome of the final. With Parting beating MKP he would've all killed the best players of Prime while still playing as the ace of his own team, aswell as having squirtle, Bomber and Curious waiting for the potential killing blow. Being in an advantageous position, such as Parting, and getting dropped of the game has a greater negative influence on one's momentum than it would have when you're on the backfoot. Basically, MKP got a second chance ("I lost that game, so I'm not gonna let him do that again) in an extremly volatile match while Parting must have been like "I won that game, I can't lose now!", thus pressuring himself much harder. Parting clearly lost the game of nerves. MKP all-killing the rest of ST (though the bobmer game was close) wasn't much of a suprise at all http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319285
Didn't that happen a while ago? Prime won.
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As far as I'm concerned even if MKP had 5% chance to win that game, the DC should be a regame no matter what
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The whole situation is a mess for the players because none of them are at fault. PartinG was at an overall advantage, but not for that particular fight. To top it all off, MKP showed that he was well capable of taking games that were not in his favor at all in the Bomber and Squirtle matches. If the replay is made public, I definitely won't hesitate to look further into it, but ultimately, the refs made a call, and thats the way it is.
Overall, MKP played impressively once again, as did PartinG and Maru. Too bad nobody will remember the individual matches...
Edit: I think the best way GOM could have handled it yesterday would be to extend the series between PartinG and MKP into a BO3, with PartinG up by one.
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At the end of the day, it will go down as one of those tainted sporting victories... it happens in every sport, very disappointing... if I was Parting, I'd be depressed... you can argue about what-ifs but the numbers tell a story... I found it very disheartening that the Gom Judges couldn't take a decision on that evidence...
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Yeah don't say something and then don't expect it to happen. I remember writing a post and then said, " I didn't care ban me if you want" and sure enough I got banned. so watch what you say.
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On April 09 2012 01:29 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:22 ooozer wrote: Wether or not Parting would have won that game, nobody can deny the impact this game had on the outcome of the final. With Parting beating MKP he would've all killed the best players of Prime while still playing as the ace of his own team, aswell as having squirtle, Bomber and Curious waiting for the potential killing blow. Being in an advantageous position, such as Parting, and getting dropped of the game has a greater negative influence on one's momentum than it would have when you're on the backfoot. Basically, MKP got a second chance ("I lost that game, so I'm not gonna let him do that again) in an extremly volatile match while Parting must have been like "I won that game, I can't lose now!", thus pressuring himself much harder. Parting clearly lost the game of nerves. MKP all-killing the rest of ST (though the bobmer game was close) wasn't much of a suprise at all http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319285Didn't that happen a while ago? Prime won.
Once again: I'm not saying ST would've won after beating MKP with Parting, but the outcome wouldn't remind you of a clean sweep (5:2 is clearly one sided). You know, just because Byun beat Parting back then, doesn't mean it's gonna happen again. The outcome of ByunvsParting wouldn't been in favor of byun just because he beat him back then. You also have to consider that parting would've had great momentum after beating Maru, BBoongBBoong and MKP back to back
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On April 09 2012 01:31 Ferr3t wrote: I think the best way GOM could have handled it yesterday would be to extend the series between PartinG and MKP into a BO3, with PartinG up by one. That would be pretty brilliant, albeit a bit iffy.
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On April 09 2012 01:20 TheRealNanMan wrote: Awesome interviews!
I like that Prime's Coach stepped up about the disconnect "I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach."
I'm not sure how this is 'stepping up'. There's nothing actually on the line even though he says he'll 'resign' because absolutely no one and nothing that can hold him to account. There's no point where he actually has to resign. It was just pointless bravado.
Glad we might get a replay for it.
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On April 09 2012 01:39 infey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:20 TheRealNanMan wrote: Awesome interviews!
I like that Prime's Coach stepped up about the disconnect "I ask GomTV to release the replay so that there is no misunderstanding. If Startale or the fans think that Parting deserved a win, I will resign as team Prime’s coach." I'm not sure how this is 'stepping up'. There's nothing actually on the line even though he says he'll 'resign' because absolutely no one and nothing that can hold him to account. There's no point where he actually has to resign. It was just pointless bravado. Glad we might get a replay for it.
It's actually a great way of silencing the critics. By placing his on career on the line, critizist think twice before they say what they think, because they could destroy his career because of a single tournament(which a kind hearted person wouldn't do).
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Would be cool if MC joined Prime since they need protoss and MC seems to be dropping off without a team. Him and MKP are like best freinds from way back at MBC anyway when they were teamates and it was obvious they have good chemistry in HSC. I'm calling it MC goes to prime within next 6 months.
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On April 09 2012 01:58 tdt wrote: Would be cool if MC joined Prime since they need protoss and MC seems to be dropping off without a team. Him and MKP are like best freinds from way back at MBC anyway when they were teamates and it was obvious they have good chemistry in HSC. I'm calling it MC goes to prime within next 6 months. BOY MC SURE IS DROPPING OFF! He's only Code S and won a large tournament in March, but that's falling off right?
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On April 09 2012 01:32 sjperera wrote: At the end of the day, it will go down as one of those tainted sporting victories... it happens in every sport, very disappointing... if I was Parting, I'd be depressed... you can argue about what-ifs but the numbers tell a story... I found it very disheartening that the Gom Judges couldn't take a decision on that evidence... Tainted victory my ass... It's not like the coaches decided it. It was the ref., just like in any other sport/competition, you accept the decision and move on.
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On April 09 2012 02:02 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:58 tdt wrote: Would be cool if MC joined Prime since they need protoss and MC seems to be dropping off without a team. Him and MKP are like best freinds from way back at MBC anyway when they were teamates and it was obvious they have good chemistry in HSC. I'm calling it MC goes to prime within next 6 months. BOY MC SURE IS DROPPING OFF! He's only Code S and won a large tournament in March, but that's falling off right? It sure is! Nestea and MVP have dropped off too. RIP their career as a progamer.
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Congrats on the insane win Prime & MKP
Now go take IPL4 :D
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If I beat Nestea and Polt, I will win no matter what Huh, he doesn't even think about his first match vs MMA. Looks like he might get some deserved spanking for that. (or maybe he didn't know the bracket at the time, because the mentions sound kinda random)
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On April 08 2012 20:48 how2TL wrote: EVERYONE
Can we keep the true enemy in sight? Blizzard. LAN. Or some feature to allow a game to be continued from the drop time.
Guys its NOT MKP or GARRADS FAULT.
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On April 09 2012 00:25 Belisarius wrote: Is it bad that I'm incredibly excited they're going to release that replay, just to watch the game?
Dat storm/anti-storm micro... I'm fine with the ref's decision, I just want to absorb Parting's build and watch his play.
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On April 08 2012 22:43 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:47 ma70 wrote: Awesome job Prime! Good job winning.
PS: For all of the people that are complaining about the re-game thing, MKP beat every other player pretty soundly. Then there's Byun/Creator, which are two very good players known for being the aces of Prime as well. I don't see how this re-game translates to Prime actually losing. This community is very strange.....everyone just wants everyone else to fail. Sort of sad. Which is remarkable, and anybody denying he is an outstanding player is plain wrong - but he should not have played further games to begin with. And lol @ your skewed perception of everybody wants successful people to fail... Also I think it as a dickish move of Gerrard to be honest ( in a western context - maybe in a korean it´s different and he really means it- however irrational it is either way)
You bring up a good point. He wouldn't have beat them if he wasn't there to begin with, but Prime still had two other good players. We have no idea which way it would have went if he got knocked out. Oh well.
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Good for Gerrard for really making a point of how much he really does believe that the right decision was made. Personally, in a totally selfish way, I'm glad there was a regame; the first game was really good and I wanted to see another between the two of them. I really feel like the refs probably made the right call, they spent 20 minutes deciding which way to go and they knew that whatever they chose half the fans would blame them for how the whole event went. If they had awarded the game to PartinG I would bet that the arguments would be at least as vehement. Anyways: congratulations to Prime and MKP those games were really well played and hard fought. Well played by Startale as well, it is a shame that seven (or eight) incredible games are being ignored by the community, instead we are just arguing over referee decisions.
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I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
It's not tainted by the regame because the regame was the only good decision to make. Now that we, the fans, have had time to think about it, there is a general concensus that the best option would have been to do a Bo3 between MKP and Parting with Parting up 1-0, but that was something we came up with, not them, and not until after it was over. If they had just given Parting the win for that game there would be almost as much rage from Prime/MKP fans and the results would be just as "tainted." - So really there is no salvaging the series in the minds of everyone.
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On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Trust MKP, he is just such an amazing human being with insane micro which can turn the tide of any battle no matter what disadvantage he is in, nothing is impossible for him no comeback from, nothing, parting would have been totally obliterated if the game did not dc, guess startale got lucky that they got an excuse for the defeat.
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On April 09 2012 20:44 MaNaVoId wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Trust MKP, he is just such an amazing human being with insane micro which can turn the tide of any battle no matter what disadvantage he is in, nothing is impossible for him no comeback from, nothing, parting would have been totally obliterated if the game did not dc, guess startale got lucky that they got an excuse for the defeat.
How the hell is this guy not banned yet? He's been posting all this sarcastic crap all over the forums about MKP, even in the fanclub "sigh".
Nvm, he just got banned, thanks
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France12466 Posts
On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If StarTale would have gotten the win it would have been tainted for them too if they won in the end. It's not Prime, MKP or referees faults that such a decision had to be made, it's blizzard for not making a "save game when crash" feature, really.
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On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
There's no excuse for losing 4 players to 1 player anyway. MarineKing showed he was better than the StarTale team and got the championship fairly.
Not like there was anything stopping Parting to win the second game, they both went identical builds.
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On April 09 2012 21:04 noddy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's no excuse for losing 4 players to 1 player anyway. MarineKing showed he was better than the StarTale team and got the championship fairly. Not like there was anything stopping Parting to win the second game, they both went identical builds. You have to tealize that Parting couldn't play 100% because of that decision. You are psychically destroyed n such a scenario. Regame was the right decision though.
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On April 09 2012 21:14 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:04 noddy wrote:On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's no excuse for losing 4 players to 1 player anyway. MarineKing showed he was better than the StarTale team and got the championship fairly. Not like there was anything stopping Parting to win the second game, they both went identical builds. You have to tealize that Parting couldn't play 100% because of that decision. You are psychically destroyed n such a scenario. Regame was the right decision though.
I understand this but honestly, did you see MarineKing? He even said in the interviews he was mentally unwell after this decision so I think neither of them were in a good place.
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opterown
Australia54649 Posts
On April 09 2012 21:14 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:04 noddy wrote:On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's no excuse for losing 4 players to 1 player anyway. MarineKing showed he was better than the StarTale team and got the championship fairly. Not like there was anything stopping Parting to win the second game, they both went identical builds. You have to tealize that Parting couldn't play 100% because of that decision. You are psychically destroyed n such a scenario. Regame was the right decision though.
psychically destroyed, what a boss. GhostKing used feedback on PartinG!
on topic: i am a prime/mkp fan, but i feel a bit hollow about the victory.
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I'm sure Koreans who highly appreciate manners will overcome this scandal looking toward upcoming GSL
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I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other
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On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other
then that team deserve to win....
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On April 09 2012 21:15 noddy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:14 Tarotis wrote:On April 09 2012 21:04 noddy wrote:On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's no excuse for losing 4 players to 1 player anyway. MarineKing showed he was better than the StarTale team and got the championship fairly. Not like there was anything stopping Parting to win the second game, they both went identical builds. You have to tealize that Parting couldn't play 100% because of that decision. You are psychically destroyed n such a scenario. Regame was the right decision though. I understand this but honestly, did you see MarineKing? He even said in the interviews he was mentally unwell after this decision so I think neither of them were in a good place.
Only one who is feeling bad after any regame of unfinished game, is the player who had an advantage, and pretty solid one. Parting like struggled to keep up all game, and at the end he just destroyed MKP army. Parting was devastated much much more.
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On April 10 2012 00:58 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other then that team deserve to win....
In this format maybe.
But this is a team league and to be honest, I've been thinking about that as well. A team league should be a team accomplishment, not just a single player being so good he can defeat a whole team. It's the team in general that should do the trick.
I think the Broodwar finals this weekend were WAY more exciting than the whole GSTL finals. And that's not just because of the parting marineking dc incident, it's the format. It just feels more deserving for the winning team.
Oh well~
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That's silly. I wouldn't want to watch a set up where the players were pre-determined like that. It produces so much more drama and it's so much more intense to watch in this format.
For the disc situation, it's such a tough call, but really have a lot of respect for Prime's coach for what he said. He's so confident in his decisions and has so much faith in his team. Also MKP played fantastically regardless.
It is unfortunate that the win is tainted, there's no denying that. I actually was pretty certain when watching the game that MKP was about to GG. Parting had that momentum Protoss players seem to have after a big engagement in the late game that Terran can't recover from thanks to the warp-in mechanic. I'd love to hear the opinions of the Startale players on this.
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On April 10 2012 02:17 Kazuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:58 ninjamyst wrote:On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other then that team deserve to win.... In this format maybe. But this is a team league and to be honest, I've been thinking about that as well. A team league should be a team accomplishment, not just a single player being so good he can defeat a whole team. It's the team in general that should do the trick. I think the Broodwar finals this weekend were WAY more exciting than the whole GSTL finals. And that's not just because of the parting marineking dc incident, it's the format. It just feels more deserving for the winning team. Oh well~
I agree. This KOTH style format that is so popular atm for sc2 just isn't that exciting. I loved BW's proleague style of 1 season of normal 4 1v1 + ace match, and then they would do winners league winner goes on until they lose. I wish GOM would do that but doesn't look like it, just so much more exciting to me :/.
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On April 10 2012 00:58 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other then that team deserve to win.... No, the player deserves to win, not the team.
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Why does it matter? The player is a member of the team, so the team wins by extension.
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On April 10 2012 04:40 crocodile wrote: Why does it matter? The player is a member of the team, so the team wins by extension. Yea if you look at it like that but it feels not like team league that way, more like a marathon for a single player.
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If the other team doesn't have anyone good enough to take down one player, they don't deserve to win.
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Startale have won in my Heart they are the CHAMPIONS, SHAME on Prime Shame on this COACH and shame on GSL.
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On April 10 2012 04:37 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:58 ninjamyst wrote:On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other then that team deserve to win.... No, the player deserves to win, not the team. 100% true. i loved winners league for 2 reasons: it was 1 round out of 5 and kt always won ;-) this is just too much. also, elimination bracket for a team "league" feels wrong. but maybe that changes when kespa/ogn make their "proleague" for sc2. also: maybe kespa/ogn have some kind of ip-rights for their format in e-sports? you dont know...
on topic: yaih mkp;-)
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ST got 4 opportunities to kill MKP without a PC crashing out of his control and didn't take any of them. Prime won it fair and square, the regame wasn't their decision and it wasn't their fault.
It is hard to celebrate such a victory was it does feel weird, but Prime shouldn't be blamed at all, and nor should GOM. Any decision was going to cause controversy and some people would feel cheated.
I really really really hope Gerard doesn't resign, as he's my favourite manager/coach because it's so clear that he has passion for his players.
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On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other I'm fine with All-Kill format, but I really dislike how the Group Play is done for the teams. A loser's bracket for RO10, RO8 & RO6 seems too forgiving. NSH & FXO for instance were defeated thrice before they were eliminated from GSTL S1.
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That's right. The loser of the match is the CHAMPION!! StarTale is clearly the winner here after losing 5 games. In fantasy land, they would've beaten Prime like nothing.
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United States97248 Posts
On April 10 2012 04:58 Xarles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I feel like the GSTL format needs to be changed to the Brood War format, because if you have someone like MKP on your team they can just roll over most players on the other I'm fine with All-Kill format, but I really dislike how the Group Play is done for the teams. A loser's bracket for RO10, RO8 & RO6 seems too forgiving. NSH & FXO for instance were defeated thrice before they were eliminated from GSTL S1. I don't get why they got rid of the season format. Was it too long? I thought it was cool
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On April 10 2012 04:47 crocodile wrote: If the other team doesn't have anyone good enough to take down one player, they don't deserve to win. Good point.
In more evolved and seriously taken proleague - there are snipers. Great great snipers, who are only good in one matchup and prepare vs a strong player of the opponent team specifically. It works like a charm and to some extent has happened in SC2 team leagues too. If your team doesn't have the needed sniper, well, that's a weakness, you need deeper roster.
As you see, this format still contains very interesting TEAM strategy in it.
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On April 09 2012 21:15 noddy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:14 Tarotis wrote:On April 09 2012 21:04 noddy wrote:On April 09 2012 04:27 HolyArrow wrote: I don't understand how some people are trying to argue that Prime's GSTL win isn't tainted by the regame. Sorry, but it is. Your (presumably) favorite team already won, so you should just be happy with that. The circumstances objectively weren't ideal, and MKP incontrovertibly had luck on his side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's no excuse for losing 4 players to 1 player anyway. MarineKing showed he was better than the StarTale team and got the championship fairly. Not like there was anything stopping Parting to win the second game, they both went identical builds. You have to tealize that Parting couldn't play 100% because of that decision. You are psychically destroyed n such a scenario. Regame was the right decision though. I understand this but honestly, did you see MarineKing? He even said in the interviews he was mentally unwell after this decision so I think neither of them were in a good place.
MarineKing was well enough to commit to a timing attack at the moment of greatest weakness in Parting's build, which he had just seen.
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I still dont get why people are crying over the GSTL finals. It was a good finals only reason people are crying is they are Startale fans. MKP wasnt even out of the game look at the curious game last time they met MKP was holding on for like ten minutes when the supply was 50/200 to 100/200 you guys make it seem like it was impossible MKPs economy was good he couldve drop 6 mules and it wouldve went thru the ROOF and you dont even know when the timings of his production wouldve came out so whats the point of discussing it anymore
PRIME won dont cry about it anymore theres always controversy in sports so quit crying and get over it PRIME is the GSTL champions
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The Prime coach has some balls to say that he will resign if the general public thinks that parting deserved the win. He just needs to keep quite and take the victory.
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Thanks OP for the translation of the interview.
Very bold of the Prime coach... Startale got ****ed and anybody who says otherwise is just a fanboy of either Prime or MKP....
edit* I don't follow GSTL and also don't follow any Startale players so I would say I am unbiased.. Saw the games live and any pro, caster and viewer would agree that Parting had the first game in the bag. Great for MKP to receive a "get out of jail free" card and he won the remainder of his games very convincingly although I think Bomber could have also taken his game.....
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On April 10 2012 06:42 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: The Prime coach has some balls to say that he will resign if the general public thinks that parting deserved the win. He just needs to keep quiet and take the victory.
Fixed that for you =P
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United States32498 Posts
easy to talk big when you know you won't have to back it up (gom won't release the replay)
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and it's easy to talk shit about a team when you don't have the same evidence as the people actually in charge
On April 10 2012 08:07 Rorschach wrote: although I think Bomber could have also taken his game.....
This is exactly the point. If MarineKing had dced when Bomber dropped in his base(Bomber with more than double the workers, a third base on the way) people would have cried about a regame because Bomber was obviously winning.
As we saw, people can fuck up. Especially in high pressure situations and get overeager.
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On April 10 2012 23:05 Waxangel wrote: easy to talk big when you know you won't have to back it up (gom won't release the replay) Got any confirmation on that? I think GOM would make an exception just this once in order to clear things up.
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On April 10 2012 06:42 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: The Prime coach has some balls to say that he will resign if the general public thinks that parting deserved the win. He just needs to keep quite and take the victory.
Not really, he thinks they deserved it. He will never resign.
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On April 10 2012 06:28 naux wrote: I still dont get why people are crying over the GSTL finals. It was a good finals only reason people are crying is they are Startale fans. MKP wasnt even out of the game look at the curious game last time they met MKP was holding on for like ten minutes when the supply was 50/200 to 100/200 you guys make it seem like it was impossible MKPs economy was good he couldve drop 6 mules and it wouldve went thru the ROOF and you dont even know when the timings of his production wouldve came out so whats the point of discussing it anymore
PRIME won dont cry about it anymore theres always controversy in sports so quit crying and get over it PRIME is the GSTL champions
How would he be able to drop 6 mules and just be fine when 16 zealots and 8 hts is outside his base and he defends with 3 maurauders and 6 vikings?
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On April 11 2012 06:51 Dewd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:28 naux wrote: I still dont get why people are crying over the GSTL finals. It was a good finals only reason people are crying is they are Startale fans. MKP wasnt even out of the game look at the curious game last time they met MKP was holding on for like ten minutes when the supply was 50/200 to 100/200 you guys make it seem like it was impossible MKPs economy was good he couldve drop 6 mules and it wouldve went thru the ROOF and you dont even know when the timings of his production wouldve came out so whats the point of discussing it anymore
PRIME won dont cry about it anymore theres always controversy in sports so quit crying and get over it PRIME is the GSTL champions How would he be able to drop 6 mules and just be fine when 16 zealots and 8 hts is outside his base and he defends with 3 maurauders and 6 vikings? Well HT's were in parting's base and MKP production was still going in his main base. He could have used the vikings to shoot the warp prism. get his next production cycle of marauders and land his vikings to buffer. Who knows what might have happened.
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On April 11 2012 06:51 Dewd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:28 naux wrote: I still dont get why people are crying over the GSTL finals. It was a good finals only reason people are crying is they are Startale fans. MKP wasnt even out of the game look at the curious game last time they met MKP was holding on for like ten minutes when the supply was 50/200 to 100/200 you guys make it seem like it was impossible MKPs economy was good he couldve drop 6 mules and it wouldve went thru the ROOF and you dont even know when the timings of his production wouldve came out so whats the point of discussing it anymore
PRIME won dont cry about it anymore theres always controversy in sports so quit crying and get over it PRIME is the GSTL champions How would he be able to drop 6 mules and just be fine when 16 zealots and 8 hts is outside his base and he defends with 3 maurauders and 6 vikings? There were only 8 zealot and 6 stalkers in the front hitting the outer raxes, the rest were at bases, 7 HTs were just wrapped in literally 1 second before the dc (the unit tab jumped from 1HT to 8HT 1 second before dc).
Seriously, if it comes to worst, I'm sure 3 marauders, 6 viking, 71 scvs can hold off 16 zealot and 8 stalkers easily until units from 14 raxes and 4 starports coming out lol. I assure you that those Protoss units can't kill 71 scvs fast enough. And he still have MULESSS.
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Gerard is one handsome man
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This whole "omg who should have won?? so unfair omg omg omg" stuff is just pointless.
We will never know for sure what would have happened, it's done it's done. So instead of wasting time speculating on something we will never know anyway how about working towards making sure it doesn't happen again huh?
If anything people should be mad at Blizzard and put pressure on them to finally release LAN support in the next expansion, THAT is what's gonna help e-sports, not speculating on something that can't be changed.
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On April 11 2012 06:51 Dewd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 06:28 naux wrote: I still dont get why people are crying over the GSTL finals. It was a good finals only reason people are crying is they are Startale fans. MKP wasnt even out of the game look at the curious game last time they met MKP was holding on for like ten minutes when the supply was 50/200 to 100/200 you guys make it seem like it was impossible MKPs economy was good he couldve drop 6 mules and it wouldve went thru the ROOF and you dont even know when the timings of his production wouldve came out so whats the point of discussing it anymore
PRIME won dont cry about it anymore theres always controversy in sports so quit crying and get over it PRIME is the GSTL champions How would he be able to drop 6 mules and just be fine when 16 zealots and 8 hts is outside his base and he defends with 3 maurauders and 6 vikings? HT weren't there, they were all the way back at Partings base.... With reinforcements from the Rax in MKP's main, he could of technically held off those 16 zealots, with equal bases and pretty much equal economy behind it, they had to regame. Parting was in great shape, def had a big advantage, but it was not a 100% for parting therefore have to regame.
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No matter how you look at these things it isn't MKP's fault or Prime's fault at all. They are there to play and win, there is no reason to ever throw a game if you're a Pro Gamer. MKP made the right choices and it just happened that a disconnect occurred. It sucks that it had to happen and MKP probably only had a 15-20% chance to win that game if even but still, there was no "PartinG would win 100%." People should review the TSL3 rules about disconnects and think about how they would've applied in this case.
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Thanks for the interviews!
I so would have liked the camera on Dustin Browder and Mike Morhaime when the crowd started shouting, "We want LAN! We want LAN!" Oh well. In the end, it was Blizzard's fault and I'm glad they were there to witness it first hand.
The regame decision was alright in my book and I wonder why people throw a hissyfit over this. It's not like the refs decided to give the game to MKP. If PartinG was good enough to beat MKP (as is claimed), he would have beaten him in the regame. Alas, he didn't. But Startale had more players to send out and defeat MKP. Alas, they couldn't do it either. Hence, Prime won in the end. To insist that there should not have been a regame on such a close interrupted game, is like grasping at straws and basically admitting that Startale did not have what it takes to beat any player from their opposing team Prime. But that's what this final was about: Beat the opposing team no matter whom they send out.
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good luck at your next job mr park. an impartial viewer of that replay knows who won the game.
mkp response was much more thought out.
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