EPTMech TvP Exploration - Page 5
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
| ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:25 TeeTS wrote: Well but the true reasons why mech isn't used, is not that bio is better. If that were the reason we might have a simular situation like we have in TvZ, where generally Bio(with tanks) is played, but from time to time every good player throws in a mech build. In TvP however the reason, for mech not being used, is simply that Protoss has too good answers to mech compositions. 1. Chargelots: In a blink of an eye they close the gap. So at times even the first volley of tank shots allready deals friendly fire to you. That hurts and sucks! 2. Archons: They allways take the minimal damage from any unit. No bonus damage received from Hellions or Tanks here. That makes them VERY beafy, too beafy to be honest. 3. Immortals: Hardcounter to Thors and Tanks, Softcounter to Hellions. This Unit is simply the key, to unlock every mech-ground-composition. The other point is: A mass Ghost/Tank mixture sounds really good for the lategame, even with the mobilty problems. BUT the transition is really hard to play. against an insanely high tank count, everything just melts except for immortals and archons, which can be emp'ed to death. BUT to get such a gas intensive composition, seems very hard. But this thread made me interested. I think I'll give it a try. If you read my original post, I didn't say mech doesn't work but I did say that the factors I identified make bio a more attractive option. | ||
|
tnud
Sweden2233 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:29 Blazinghand wrote: As chill as I think the idea of a TvP "Mechsploration" would be, I've tried personal mechsplosions on the ladder, and despite many mechscavations and mechschanges of units, I've come to mechspect mech to be mechsponentially worse than the standard bio TvP because of the tools Protoss has available. Tanks for your brilliant conclusion. I've had the same experience. | ||
|
KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:34 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Mech is incredibly hard to pull off, but it in theory a better option than bio against protos. You cannot just play mech in conventional ways like playing with bio. You have to have fucking good macro and like I have said, build a lot of buildings around the map to make terrain too hard for protos to engage. When map is split in half, the game becomes war of attrition, and mech terran will win this war if played correctly. Protos just has nothing in their arsenal to win that game. Does this mean terran is overpowered? yes Why no one plays mech then? Pros play for living and they rather play more convenient styles and lets be honest, most progamers just copy others build without any intellectual though put in it. Mech is also hard as hell, while good terrans can utilize bio with good succes so they have no reason to change. this is just fucking dumb obviously if its like "the ultimate strategy and playstyle" which it fucking is not for several reasons the main reason being that its not actually that cost efficient against the protoss army and it can very well lose a maxed vs maxed fight... youre basicly just saying that mech is the best strategy ever and its OP as fuck but everyone just sucks and dont know how to do it, but i know this because... i just know | ||
|
KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
| ||
|
nOondn
564 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:43 KAmaKAsa wrote: All the games with mech in TvP have been all ins in the pro games... and the day9 daily of the subject was awful as fuck and isnt a good example of a strategy being good or viable yes, they always show those "2 base mech all-in" and claim that is "mech". | ||
|
Vindicare605
United States16127 Posts
Their damage is only substantial against Zealots, and even then isn't worth their supply cost given their health and survivability. Without an effective mineral dump Mech is entirely reliant on the cost effectiveness of Siege Tanks and Thors vs a Protoss Deathball. While effective in timing attacks and all ins it simply isn't a valid long term gameplan considering how quickly Protoss is able to both get ahead in upgrades, out maneauver Terran Mech Armies, and reinforce thanks to Warp Tech. Mech has all of the weaknesses it has in the other matchups without maintaining the cost effectiveness it maintains in the other match ups. Bio is simply the superiror game plan in the late game in virtually every way. | ||
|
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Artosis claiming mech would be viable has to be some elaborate troll on his part, or alternatively he misses BW TvP so much he wants to keep people discussing the possibilities of mech. Deep down I'm sure he knows how awful mech is. Mech sucks, period. | ||
|
Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Its just worse than bio. Its only advantage is a more powerful lategame army, but it still loses to a chargelot remax so there is no difference to bio there. Its just easier to micro than bio, and toss aren't used to it. Protoss armies destroy mech armies without even using zealot bombs, flanks, blinking single stalkers towards tanks. They just a-move their army cos thats how easy it is. Imagine what would happen if Protoss had to try to defeat mech. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:41 tnud wrote: Tanks for your brilliant conclusion. I've had the same experience. I'm glad others have had the chance to work these things out for themselves. I wouldn't anyone to just trust my findings on a Thor ity. | ||
|
GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:49 Vindicare605 wrote: Hellions are borderline useless in late game TvP. Their damage is only substantial against Zealots, and even then isn't worth their supply cost given their health and survivability. Without an effective mineral dump Mech is entirely reliant on the cost effectiveness of Siege Tanks and Thors vs a Protoss Deathball. While effective in timing attacks and all ins it simply isn't a valid long term gameplan considering how quickly Protoss is able to both get ahead in upgrades, out maneauver Terran Mech Armies, and reinforce thanks to Warp Tech. Mech has all of the weaknesses it has in the other matchups without maintaining the cost effectiveness it maintains in the other match ups. Bio is simply the superiror game plan in the late game in virtually every way. Also alot of Protosses are learning how to wall off. Not to mention that Cannons are very good against Hellions and Stalker warp ins make it near impossible to make a late game Hellion drop work. All we can do is hope Blizzard listens for HOTS. Unfortunately I see tanks dieing all together if Warhounds and Battle Hellions make it in. Not to mention how supply the new Mech units are. If you decide to go mech your gonna have a very small, slow,expensive, immobile army. | ||
|
Petrify
10 Posts
My search lead to the Thors/Cloak Banshees/Marines/Raven build that you mention. Granted it is not pure mech, it's the closest thing that terran has that is viable. It's something that I've found to be extremely strong after seeing it used recently a couple of times in GSL/GSTL. I think its possible to hit a stronger timing attack than the 1/1/1, and as its done off two base its not as all in, in fact you don't even need to drag scv's. This build just makes sense and has a very natural flow and logic behind it: Open up with a 1rax fe. Make sure you wall off at your ramp in an attempt to deny scouting information, this is important as it may make the protoss feel vulnerable and cause them to get a robo for observers and juicy scouting information. You want the protoss to go robo! If they do get a probe in, don't fret, your next move will force a robo. Get a double gas as fast as you can after your CC (bunker up natural for defense) for cloak banshees. This may seem illogical as the protoss should already have observers, if you denied scouting, but you want them to really commit to robo tech on the off chance they haven't got observers already. Make sure you don't lose a single banshee, even if it means doing zero damage with the banshees. This opening is all because it leads to a natural transition into collosus for the protoss as the robo is already there, which more importantly means, no high templar! If you then get fast four gas, and make sure you have constant production from 2 orbitals (stop scv's at 2 base saturation), 2 factorys (producing 2 thors at a time), 2 rax (1 reactor, one no addon), and 1 starport (1 raven after the first two banshees to deny scouting observers with thors, rest banshee), and hit a +1 veichle weapon timing, it is almost impossible for the protoss to stop. The thors will instantly kill any observers around due to their massive range and auto targeting against air, you then send your cloak banshees to take down the collosus and immortals, your raven has enough energy for a PDD to nullify the stalkers while your marines kill the zealots fairly easily. Make sure you fight away from cannons, however if you are forced to engage near cannons, you should have enough thors to focus them down straight away and elminiate any detection against the banshee. If you don't outright kill them with the +1 push, as long as you have taken down enough robo tech in the engagement and denied any third, as long as you keep producing thors, banshees and rines, and make sure you have one raven, the protoss is forced to keep producing robo units (immortals for thors, observers for banshees) and any high templar count is sure to be insignificant due to a lack of gas. | ||
|
IMPrime
United States715 Posts
| ||
|
Yngvi
Netherlands70 Posts
| ||
|
Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
They're some nice BioMech timings, but thats its limit currently I believe. | ||
|
Garmer
1286 Posts
| ||
|
pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
| ||
|
Lyyna
France776 Posts
On April 04 2012 20:08 Garmer wrote: also mech, mean that you use only thor hellion and tank, not stuff like bc raven viking and banshee, this is not mech for me... So bio is only marine maraudeur and ghost,right? No medivac,viking.. And so marine/tank vZ is only marine and tank right? no maraudeur, no ghost, no hellion,no thors, no medivac,no viking | ||
|
Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
personally i reckon it's harder meching vs zerg. looked away to macro, ling surround loose game. slightly over extend? ling surround loose game. miss their tech switch into mutas, loose everything, never expand again.... then loose the game. just >:U!!!!!!!!!!! Look at my post on page 4 to see how to mech vs protoss. | ||
|
Penecks
United States600 Posts
On April 04 2012 20:32 Bodzilla wrote: mech isn't that hard vs protoss. personally i reckon it's harder meching vs zerg. Well assuming you aren't being really reckless with your mech force, a zerg will likely lose his entire army attacking into you at most points in the game. Not that mech in TvZ doesn't have its own advantages and weaknesses, but at least that clause is generally guaranteed. The zerg must rebuild/reposition and it is here where you can try to make an advantageous move. Now in TvP if the same thing happens its very possible that the toss has not only destroyed your army, but actually has some tech units left, and is now warping in chargelots 8 at a time. Against a mechball which is slow to reinforce, slow to move around, and requires prepared positioning to function properly, it just becomes an awful situation for the terran. | ||
| ||
