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On April 04 2012 11:08 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:38 IMPrime wrote:
AFAIK mech does not work outside of timing attacks because of no spider mines. Spider mines wouldn't change anything. It's the fact that a) Protoss don't have a 'good' answer to bio like they did in SC1 (storm/reaver vs colossus/storm) b) Mech is immobile and protoss is mobile c) Protoss have siege units that are viable I'm not going to say that mech doesn't work, because strictly speaking nothing is more terrifying that maxed 3-3 terran mech, but I will say that the preceding reasons make bio a better option.
Wouldn't spider mines alleviate some of the immobility issue? It should significantly help in terms of map control over a sensor tower (delay their expansions), not needing to spend so much resources into PFs and force the P to be careful/produce observers or get punished by mini nukes. Plus back stabs would be less dangerous due to having mine fields in your main for those pesky blinkstalker/warp prism harass that often occurs. It would make a world of difference I reckon.
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spider mines would not work in sc2
shredder will be very nice, but i am a bit worried about how much damage it can take
mech immobility is not even an issue if you actually learn how to use sensor towers and look your minimap. And if they are doing multipronged attacks, then its just even better because you can afford to split your armies because you have the most effective army in the game. Also if they are gonna just come in your base, there is buildings alot and chargelots etc have hard time to get even one hit
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Some people think that mines would help, but I don't. If Terran had spider mines blink/obs back stabs would still be commonplace/mandatory vs mech and given you have an obs seeing mines isn't an issue. Clearing mines in front of tanks wouldn't be difficult either with colossus and immortals would be amazing at soaking them up, further charge would probably pull more mines into tanks 
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On April 04 2012 11:44 Plexa wrote:Some people think that mines would help, but I don't. If Terran had spider mines blink/obs back stabs would still be commonplace/mandatory vs mech and given you have an obs seeing mines isn't an issue. Clearing mines in front of tanks wouldn't be difficult either with colossus and immortals would be amazing at soaking them up, further charge would probably pull more mines into tanks
blink stalkers do not counter mech
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On April 04 2012 11:44 Plexa wrote:Some people think that mines would help, but I don't. If Terran had spider mines blink/obs back stabs would still be commonplace/mandatory vs mech and given you have an obs seeing mines isn't an issue. Clearing mines in front of tanks wouldn't be difficult either with colossus and immortals would be amazing at soaking them up, further charge would probably pull more mines into tanks
This exactly. Collosi are giant killer minesweepers. Really I feel the issue is more the collosi then it is the immortal. Collosi are great for destroying all the low health hellions that tend to arc around their target(Zealots). Once the Hellions are gone the tanks pretty much melt. Terran Bio would have the same issue if not for Conc, stim, and Medivac. Conc and stim allow for double dps kiting while taking minimal damage from splash. Then the medivacs unlike regular medics can hover over and heal the bio.+ Show Spoiler +I hate to qq, but every change from BW to SC2 that was done to Protoss and Terran was essentially made to kill mech.
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On April 04 2012 11:34 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Mech is incredibly hard to pull off, but it in theory a better option than bio against protos. You cannot just play mech in conventional ways like playing with bio. You have to have fucking good macro and like I have said, build a lot of buildings around the map to make terrain too hard for protos to engage. When map is split in half, the game becomes war of attrition, and mech terran will win this war if played correctly. Protos just has nothing in their arsenal to win that game.
Does this mean terran is overpowered? yes
Why no one plays mech then? Pros play for living and they rather play more convenient styles and lets be honest, most progamers just copy others build without any intellectual though put in it. Mech is also hard as hell, while good terrans can utilize bio with good succes so they have no reason to change.
What? How do you possibly come to that conclusion based on the misguided interpretation you gave.
It really bothers me when this topic gets brought up continuously in strategy forum posts with the, hurr why do you stay on tier 1 all game then comment. If you can max, mech IS a decent composition to combat protoss late game. The problem is that Protoss can very easily abuse the immobility aspect of mech and expand freely over the map to bank enough mineral and gas to INSTANTLY REMAX WITH WARPGATES the second a battle commences. Why is this a problem for the terran? Mech takes SOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO long to rebuild, and there is not one specific catch all composition to roll through any Protoss tech switches late game, and if you manage to kill that first army, there's another one not too far behind, which will probably contain units that are better suited to deal with your unique composition than the previous wave, based on what he's killed off. Because he has the knowledge that the Terran cannot reinforce fast enough to add more of what he lost. Mech is a composition based on specific counters, you build units based on exactly what your opponent is making or what you believe they will make. Bio mech compositions are great, and have a very clear use on specific maps in BoX formats. But this is the essential problem with mech, if you get to endgame, you suffer through endless harassment to spread your core thin and are broken by a Protoss who has waited patiently for you to get to this point only to use the warp mechanic take advantage of your reinforcement speed. Then ofc there's carriers ><.
Mech is hard to play, yes but it's not the reason pros don't play bio, seriously this is a really perverse way of thinking. Pros do what it takes to win, if there's a specific composition that fares supreme above ANYTHING the Protoss can throw at them like you state in your post...they'd use that. Not to mention the skillcap for bio oriented play is inherently much higher than mech play because it rewards better micro a much greater amount, and there is so much potential to do so. And I'm not saying mech cannot work 100% iron first rawr. I'm saying it's not nearly as efficient and is much too coinflippy to utilize in every TvP, this is even true of TvT games were clearly lesser players take games off of established pros due to one poor engage or a moments hesitation in thinking while meching against bio.
I just, I can't come up with words to express how wrong lets be honest, most progamers just copy others build without any intellectual though put in it that is. Koreans may not be the majority but they LIVE the game they play, and top foreigners aren't that far behind, maybe not in the team house lifestyle, but they put a massive amount of thought into their play, and below that line, it's a wash of what constitutes a pro.
edit: I may sound like I'm harping on the playstyle but I've meched from release until the BF patch in every matchup, now just in TvT and TvZ.
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On April 04 2012 11:08 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 10:38 IMPrime wrote:
AFAIK mech does not work outside of timing attacks because of no spider mines. Spider mines wouldn't change anything. It's the fact that a) Protoss don't have a 'good' answer to bio like they did in SC1 (storm/reaver vs colossus/storm) b) Mech is immobile and protoss is mobile c) Protoss have siege units that are viable I'm not going to say that mech doesn't work, because strictly speaking nothing is more terrifying that maxed 3-3 terran mech, but I will say that the preceding reasons make bio a better option.
how exactly would you describe storm+forcefields+colossi, if not a 'good' answer to bio lol?
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On April 04 2012 10:51 AeroEffect wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 09:46 Cosmos wrote:On April 04 2012 09:43 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Use sensor towers and build depots and barrackses and planetaries around the map. Mech terran is all about turtling and using terrain for your advantage. You never really need to even attack protos, just let him dry out of money after continuous attempts at killing your mech army which just demolishes any protos composition, specially when protos can not even engage favorably because of all the shit you have been built around the map.
Maxed mech army with upgrades is the most powerful army in this game, so use that advantage. Battlecruisers, ravens, and tank support with some thors with blueflame hellions is very powerful. That's just wrong, mass carrier will beat whatever the terran has except mass BC ^^ mass vikings? mass ravens? mass marines?
I've actually had a mech game go to mass Carrier (and some Stalkers) vs 200/200 Viking/Thor. The Carriers won with barely a scratch on them.
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ghost b/c also super unexplored late game vs P
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:04 mburke05 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:08 Plexa wrote:On April 04 2012 10:38 IMPrime wrote:
AFAIK mech does not work outside of timing attacks because of no spider mines. Spider mines wouldn't change anything. It's the fact that a) Protoss don't have a 'good' answer to bio like they did in SC1 (storm/reaver vs colossus/storm) b) Mech is immobile and protoss is mobile c) Protoss have siege units that are viable I'm not going to say that mech doesn't work, because strictly speaking nothing is more terrifying that maxed 3-3 terran mech, but I will say that the preceding reasons make bio a better option. how exactly would you describe storm+forcefields+colossi, if not a 'good' answer to bio lol?
Oh quite simple actually. All of those require a mass of stuff to kill bio - i.e. 3+ colossus, 4ish templar and so on. Once you get to those levels I agree that protoss starts to melt bio. However, contrast this against BW where 1 reaver shot would kill a clump of bio and one storm was enough to kill half an army  comparatively bio is a lot easier to deal with in SC1 because the damage dealing stuff really packs a punch.
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Yes, it is always funny to read that Korean pros aren't trying new strategies. Just because they aren't meching in GSL, it doesn't mean they aren't trying... They make their living from winning so I am sure they are trying everything they can. The problem with mech is that it is heavily timing based... And there is no counter to chargelots with mech... According to Liquid wiki, zealots are weak vs hellions, but once zealots have charge, they actually rape hellions... And for people who claims the Avilo sky Terran build is good, sure, if the game is NR 20...
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for all you mechers, i suggest check ST_Sound vs MvP_TAiLS in GSTL on Dual Sight...It was more like 2 base timing push but still...
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On April 04 2012 11:39 Fission wrote:
the problem is that seige tanks are basically useless against P
true, but it basically goes back to protoss being much more mobile in SC2 than they were in BW
blink stalkers, collosus with range, chargelots, all viable answers to siege tanks
it'll be interesting to see if battle hellions and warhounds make the difference in HoTS
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On April 04 2012 11:44 Plexa wrote:Some people think that mines would help, but I don't. If Terran had spider mines blink/obs back stabs would still be commonplace/mandatory vs mech and given you have an obs seeing mines isn't an issue. Clearing mines in front of tanks wouldn't be difficult either with colossus and immortals would be amazing at soaking them up, further charge would probably pull more mines into tanks
Yeah, you are right about these things. But one things for sure. Id rather have them then not have them!
Also it sure seems like from BW to SC2, P got alot of different tools to dealing with mech in BW TvP which is a good thing BUT what blizzard didn't do is keep the mech the way it was nor did they compensate that by buffing some mech units in SC2. Now the entire tech tree is gimmicky at best in the matchup and we are forced to using bio that doesn't feel like Bio (marauders..? 125HP bio unit??).
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lastshadow just released a replay pack, look for the replay labelled tvp mech...
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On April 04 2012 11:47 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:44 Plexa wrote:Some people think that mines would help, but I don't. If Terran had spider mines blink/obs back stabs would still be commonplace/mandatory vs mech and given you have an obs seeing mines isn't an issue. Clearing mines in front of tanks wouldn't be difficult either with colossus and immortals would be amazing at soaking them up, further charge would probably pull more mines into tanks blink stalkers do not counter mech
They don't need to beat mech straight up to be a counter. Blink stalkers can harass you to death if you mech and never have to fight you because they're so mobile. You'll never sustain the economy you need to fund mech and you'll lose.
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On April 04 2012 12:07 Caliber wrote:
ghost b/c also super unexplored late game vs P
Ryung used Ghost BC on daybreak against Killer and (I think) Parting in one of the GSL groups a season or two ago, he basically dominated them with immaculate positioning and sick EMPs protecting his BCs from feedbacks.
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Hellions take 7 shots to kill a Zealot, Sieged up Tanks take 5 and the reload time is 2.5seconds/3seconds meaning it takes a Hellion 17.5 seconds to fry a single zealot and a tank 15 seconds. I don't know about you but that's a lot time for a unit that has a charge ability to get to what it needs to hit. If Hellions are buffering for the tanks they can't kite and it will take a zealot about 7 seconds to kill a hellion. That doesn't even count the tanks own splash hitting the hellions.
Thors don't enter into the conversation, they get rolled by immortals, void rays, and feedback. I also don't think they'd be able to kill off the 7 zealots they essentially cost to make (factoring gasx2) one on one, it wouldn't even be close.
You're immobile with mech as well, so the zealots can warp into your main, toss can have two more bases than you with a couple cannons to stop runbys etc. The Zealot, basically by itself can kill a mech army lategame. Let alone once you start adding in stalkers against hellions, immortals against tanks, void rays against the whole composition, templar against thors/banshees and it gets really messy.
The problem is for every one unit a mech unit can kill effectively there's 3 or 4 more than can kill that unit with ease. There's also several units that flat out wreck the everything in the composition. Tanks can kill stalkers but get rolled by voids, zealots and immortals. Hellions can kill zealots (in the right situation) but get rolled by immortals, voids, ht and stalkers. Thors can kill zealots and stalkers but they get wrecked by immortals and high templar. Mech also can't deal with immortals at all and well micro'd void rays are going to be rough too.
Mech is for timing attacks, and that's it. It simply can't be anything better and it will still probably get rolled in hots unless the mech warrior lookalike is immune to immortals, is cost effective against zealots, stalkers and void rays and in general is the most overpowered unit in the game.
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Yes, thins like 2-2-2 is viable if you can catch your opponent off guard... But if they see you meching, they can just make chargelots...
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On April 04 2012 12:16 Corsica wrote:
for all you mechers, i suggest check ST_Sound vs MvP_TAiLS in GSTL on Dual Sight...It was more like 2 base timing push but still...
2 base timing are very effective, but past that mech really starts to fall apart when protoss starts unlocking most of their tech and have the resources to switch around.
In a 2 base timing Protoss can only chose one of the following:
1) Charge and/or Blink
2) Immoral + GW
3) 1 or 2 Colo with very little GW support
4) Mass GW
5) Voidray with little GW support
6) Phoenix w/ GW support
7) Archon w/ Little GW support
2 Base mech pushes involve Marines, Hellions, and Tanks with Starport support+ Show Spoiler +1 React_Rax, 1 React_Fact, 1 Tech_Fact, 1 Tech_Star
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EPT
