EPTOn April 04 2012 12:07 Caliber wrote:
ghost b/c also super unexplored late game vs P
ghost b/c also super unexplored late game vs P
you want to add thors in there just to really hammer the gas requirement home?
Mech TvP Exploration - Page 3
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Mortal
2943 Posts
you want to add thors in there just to really hammer the gas requirement home? | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
The classic immobility one people always say. That's just such a dumb statement. That's not a Starcraft term. Saying all the factory and starport units are all slow is just wrong. If you need to get around the map fast you use hellions and viking/banshee. Another misconception is that people think tanks are just bad against all the protoss units. But their just thinking of tanks verse zealots. Tanks verse immortals etc. When there are generally 6 other unit types in your army. Drastically changing that equation. I find actually the longer the game goes on the stronger the mech army becomes. Specifically because you have more units to put in front of your tanks, which is the most important concept of any mech vs Protoss engagement. I hope everyone reads this post, because every time I see someone say something like "tanks are bad against protoss" or "mech is to immobile to use" just makes me so angry. edit: A third example of misconceptions is harassment is to good against mech. Which is not actually that hard to deal with. Turrets, hellions, banshees, and ravens to a lesser extent, all deal with the harassment quite effeciently. | ||
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KING CHARLIE :D
United States447 Posts
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:48 KING CHARLIE :D wrote: Everyone is always skeptical of this style, but I think that if a great player puts their mind to something ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! I love innovative play, and people who can believe in themselves. So whoever makes this work is going to seriously be MY HERO! =D Than Vile Illusion is your hero. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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SovietHammer
United States166 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:29 Filter wrote: Hellions take 7 shots to kill a Zealot, Sieged up Tanks take 5 and the reload time is 2.5seconds/3seconds meaning it takes a Hellion 17.5 seconds to fry a single zealot and a tank 15 seconds. I don't know about you but that's a lot time for a unit that has a charge ability to get to what it needs to hit. If Hellions are buffering for the tanks they can't kite and it will take a zealot about 7 seconds to kill a hellion. That doesn't even count the tanks own splash hitting the hellions. Thors don't enter into the conversation, they get rolled by immortals, void rays, and feedback. I also don't think they'd be able to kill off the 7 zealots they essentially cost to make (factoring gasx2) one on one, it wouldn't even be close. You're immobile with mech as well, so the zealots can warp into your main, toss can have two more bases than you with a couple cannons to stop runbys etc. The Zealot, basically by itself can kill a mech army lategame. Let alone once you start adding in stalkers against hellions, immortals against tanks, void rays against the whole composition, templar against thors/banshees and it gets really messy. The problem is for every one unit a mech unit can kill effectively there's 3 or 4 more than can kill that unit with ease. There's also several units that flat out wreck the everything in the composition. Tanks can kill stalkers but get rolled by voids, zealots and immortals. Hellions can kill zealots (in the right situation) but get rolled by immortals, voids, ht and stalkers. Thors can kill zealots and stalkers but they get wrecked by immortals and high templar. Mech also can't deal with immortals at all and well micro'd void rays are going to be rough too. Mech is for timing attacks, and that's it. It simply can't be anything better and it will still probably get rolled in hots unless the mech warrior lookalike is immune to immortals, is cost effective against zealots, stalkers and void rays and in general is the most overpowered unit in the game. This is, unfortunately, the reality. Mech its simply not viable in SC2 if both players are aware of what the other is doing and are of equal skill. The warp-in mechanic fundamentally breaks mech. | ||
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CPTBadAss
United States594 Posts
http://drop.sc/151415 http://drop.sc/151416 http://drop.sc/151417 | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:44 Plexa wrote: Some people think that mines would help, but I don't. If Terran had spider mines blink/obs back stabs would still be commonplace/mandatory vs mech and given you have an obs seeing mines isn't an issue. Clearing mines in front of tanks wouldn't be difficult either with colossus and immortals would be amazing at soaking them up, further charge would probably pull more mines into tanks  The idea of the immortal tanking spider mines gives me chills... That'd be amazing. | ||
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
Overall terran is a very mid game oriented race that HAS to take advantage of its drop ability. | ||
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Fission
Canada1184 Posts
---------Bio----------------Mech------------- Mobility | High | Low Flexibility | High | Low Multi-harass | High | None Mobile Power | High | None Static Power | Med/Low | Low ??? Why would you EVER play mech over bio, other than some insane preferential thing? | ||
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CPTBadAss
United States594 Posts
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Tarrot
Taiwan85 Posts
1: Siege Tanks are worthless vs. Protoss. Zerg units clump up, Bio clumps up, Protoss units very rarely clump up nearly as tight unless you have stalkers. Even in this case, Zealots w/ charge negate siege tank range (and are light), stalkers can blink in and avoid massive AOE damage, and Immortals are self-explanatory. 2: Hellions are not nearly as useful against Protoss armies as they are against Terran or Zerg armies. The only light unit in the Protoss army is the Zealot who, with charge, disperses rather fast rather than stay in a ball or clump (ala marines/lings/hydras). Its a lot more difficult for Hellions to take out Zealots than other units. 3: The Thor is pretty powerful if protected, but it has to be aware of feedback, and is countered fairly well by the Immortal, or by Zealots. Strike cannon in theory is actually useful against Immortals, but in practice the charge up time and the targeting time leave it vulnerable to being picked off. So, of the three Mech units, one is gimped to the point of almost being useless, one can be useful against the other side's buffer, but not nearly as powerful, and one is fairly good, but can suffer heavy damage from two key units. Mech can win, but everything in theory points out how much more of a climb uphill it is to win. | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
I think it could be very interesting to try a composition which is not strictly mech, but perhaps marauder hellion banshee or something to that effect. Mid to late game tanks just dont cut it in TvP, but banshees can do devastating damage against almost everything but phoenix and stalkers, and the hellions will force a more stalker heavy army which marauders will do well against Just food for thought :D | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
Maybe a transition into air could be possible since most Ts get upgrades for air anyway but the transition leaves for a dangerous timing where the P can just roll you over due to the weakened MMM army. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:08 Plexa wrote: Spider mines wouldn't change anything. It's the fact that a) Protoss don't have a 'good' answer to bio like they did in SC1 (storm/reaver vs colossus/storm) b) Mech is immobile and protoss is mobile c) Protoss have siege units that are viable I'm not going to say that mech doesn't work, because strictly speaking nothing is more terrifying that maxed 3-3 terran mech, but I will say that the preceding reasons make bio a better option. I very much agree with your 3 points, but I think spider mines would make a massive difference. Could you imagine laying an anti-recall minefield with turrets in your main and seeing if Toss will still try to blink up to your main or warp in while you push out. Also imagine how useful the FD would be against fast storm/voidray timing attacks (the main reason I die with mech). Also imagine how much easier securing a faster 3rd would be allowing you to get the much needed gas to not have to do a predictable timing attack off 2 base. Imagine actually being able to do a contain, and not some gimmicky timing attack that has to kill him before he has time to reinforce. Chargelots would also be a lot less powerful due to the smarter Tank-AI plus mines, also mines should do full damage to Immortals and due to clumping mines would be a bit more powerful to compensate for weaker tanks, meaning Toss has to be smarter than just 1A into your army and win. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
. It really is, especially when you look at what P/Z players have at their disposal, it's no wonder Terran over-rely on their only strong point - medivacs and tier 1 units. | ||
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