Hi Everyone, OK, I know I'm going to get stomped on this one but this topic is to revist Mech play vs Protoss. I am a high master Terran who has tanked his account to learn new mech builds and some have actually worked; I think it needs refining.
I feel this matchup is relatively unexplored - and the common answer is because "TvP mech Sucks". I refuse to believe this mentality - I just think it is more challenging than bio. Day9 did a show in January on it but, other than that, the build (or even attempt) for players to duplicate this on ladder is uncommon.
Recently a old style with some twists of using Thors/Cloak Banshees/Marines/Raven (1) with a scv push as emerged - Boxer used this in the last GSL (but lost). This is obviously after there is early banshee harass. But I rarely see mass tanks and helions anymore. What I am interested in exploring is perhaps a mech/bio hybrid army. For instance, one of my builds that worked was a early helion drop into expand (this is of course vs standard Toss 3 gate robo expand). Then drop 2 reactor barracks and 3 factories to produce tanks (no stim only combat shields). Then basically push while the colosi count is relatively low; even bunker outside of the protoss base if possible and slow push (similar to bw). As the game gets longer transition into more tanks/thor/emp - no bio upgrade only armory.
I feel Terran has been scared to think outside of the box in late game and simply tries to take the mass Protoss ball head-on, which is very diffcult with just bio and emp (especially after the emp nerf). I think a answer could be a mech/bio composition if transitioned and played correctly.
Obviously I'm a big fan of GoOdy being a mech player and even he has transitioned out of mech (only vs P). But I watch his stream and he still uses it occasionally. After talking to him after one of my showmatches he disclosed the helion nerf was the main reason for his switch. But why cant we replace helions with marines? Or a combo of the two? Remember, I'm exploring mech hybrid or pure mech timings that rely only on the mech upgrade. If bio is used then only combat shield and stim marines.
I would appreciate any Protoss or Terran input. AND ANY TVP MECH REPLAYS - they are so scarce. Thanks community!
Also review this thread: He is also high masters (lynna) and has a great-long game mech/strategy build
lategame tvp with mech is too hard for me personally. The immobility of mech vs the map dominating warp gate mechanics just makes defending bases a nightmare.
On April 04 2012 09:12 malaan wrote: lategame tvp with mech is too hard for me personally. The immobility of mech vs the map dominating warp gate mechanics just makes defending bases a nightmare.
With hellions not really... The problem is that mech loses in straight up battle against zealot charge (+ some stuff).
Use sensor towers and build depots and barrackses and planetaries around the map. Mech terran is all about turtling and using terrain for your advantage. You never really need to even attack protos, just let him dry out of money after continuous attempts at killing your mech army which just demolishes any protos composition, specially when protos can not even engage favorably because of all the shit you have been built around the map.
Maxed mech army with upgrades is the most powerful army in this game, so use that advantage. Battlecruisers, ravens, and tank support with some thors with blueflame hellions is very powerful even in straight up fight and protos cant trade armies efficiently.
On April 04 2012 09:43 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Use sensor towers and build depots and barrackses and planetaries around the map. Mech terran is all about turtling and using terrain for your advantage. You never really need to even attack protos, just let him dry out of money after continuous attempts at killing your mech army which just demolishes any protos composition, specially when protos can not even engage favorably because of all the shit you have been built around the map.
Maxed mech army with upgrades is the most powerful army in this game, so use that advantage. Battlecruisers, ravens, and tank support with some thors with blueflame hellions is very powerful.
That's just wrong, mass carrier will beat whatever the terran has except mass BC ^^
On April 04 2012 09:43 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Use sensor towers and build depots and barrackses and planetaries around the map. Mech terran is all about turtling and using terrain for your advantage. You never really need to even attack protos, just let him dry out of money after continuous attempts at killing your mech army which just demolishes any protos composition, specially when protos can not even engage favorably because of all the shit you have been built around the map.
Maxed mech army with upgrades is the most powerful army in this game, so use that advantage. Battlecruisers, ravens, and tank support with some thors with blueflame hellions is very powerful.
That's just wrong, mass carrier will beat whatever the terran has except mass BC ^^
On April 04 2012 09:12 malaan wrote: lategame tvp with mech is too hard for me personally. The immobility of mech vs the map dominating warp gate mechanics just makes defending bases a nightmare.
With hellions not really... The problem is that mech loses in straight up battle against zealot charge (+ some stuff).
With 8~9 blink stalkers, you need a large amount of hellions to defend which could also cause your main army to get rolled because theres no buffer for your tanks against the mass lots.
On April 04 2012 09:12 malaan wrote: lategame tvp with mech is too hard for me personally. The immobility of mech vs the map dominating warp gate mechanics just makes defending bases a nightmare.
With hellions not really... The problem is that mech loses in straight up battle against zealot charge (+ some stuff).
With 8~9 blink stalkers, you need a large amount of hellions to defend which could also cause your main army to get rolled because theres no buffer for your tanks against the mass lots.
That's what your field of spider mines is for. Oh wait...
Beastyqt has had some success with his thor-banshee build, and he does post on these forums occasionally. Illusion has some mech TvP replays as well in his replay thread:
1) i agree, after you won the game early, you can do whatever you want, even mech
2) i agree, you can do good allins with mech. But you have to hit before p have 3 base because mech can not beat a deathball at all
conclusion: Mech is good for allin and playing around if you allready won. Also you can beat P with mech if you are a way better player.
It is NOT solid because:
-you cant fastexp wich mech: - you do an allin and exp after it, it does not care what you follow up - bio exp into mech: allways brings a very long timing window where you die to an push -you can not beat deathball with mech, only if a) the p totaly dont know what to do because he never played against mech b) you allready won and have way better sup / ups
--- Did you try the Thor (3 armor ) + rines (+3 atack , shild - no stim) + banshee (+3 atack) stuff? it works quit good when the p never saw it before. would not try it 2. time against same enemy tho.
---- PS: - this belongs into strategies not main - oh day9 said its good, than it must be true ... + Show Spoiler +
On April 04 2012 09:43 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Use sensor towers and build depots and barrackses and planetaries around the map. Mech terran is all about turtling and using terrain for your advantage. You never really need to even attack protos, just let him dry out of money after continuous attempts at killing your mech army which just demolishes any protos composition, specially when protos can not even engage favorably because of all the shit you have been built around the map.
Maxed mech army with upgrades is the most powerful army in this game, so use that advantage. Battlecruisers, ravens, and tank support with some thors with blueflame hellions is very powerful.
That's just wrong, mass carrier will beat whatever the terran has except mass BC ^^
On April 04 2012 09:43 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Use sensor towers and build depots and barrackses and planetaries around the map. Mech terran is all about turtling and using terrain for your advantage. You never really need to even attack protos, just let him dry out of money after continuous attempts at killing your mech army which just demolishes any protos composition, specially when protos can not even engage favorably because of all the shit you have been built around the map.
Maxed mech army with upgrades is the most powerful army in this game, so use that advantage. Battlecruisers, ravens, and tank support with some thors with blueflame hellions is very powerful.
That's just wrong, mass carrier will beat whatever the terran has except mass BC ^^
mass vikings? mass ravens? mass marines?
A few HT support > all that you listed.
Like many have said already, mech timings work pretty well. Ive done it myself. But for a straightup macro game, I dont consider it so viable because so how unforgiving/unflexible it is compared to the standard MMMVG.
i wish heavy metal would work, mech with support works fairly easy. But siegetanks just don't do enough damage anymore to have any sort of zone control, pfs actually have to do that. But the new maps allow mech play, while some time ago most maps just favored bio play really heavily. (or low tech in general which is the toss way to go against mech)
my fav. composition currently is mech with ghost support. I hope they never find out air with upgrades would poke me.
On April 04 2012 10:38 IMPrime wrote: AFAIK mech does not work outside of timing attacks because of no spider mines.
Spider mines wouldn't change anything. It's the fact that a) Protoss don't have a 'good' answer to bio like they did in SC1 (storm/reaver vs colossus/storm) b) Mech is immobile and protoss is mobile c) Protoss have siege units that are viable
I'm not going to say that mech doesn't work, because strictly speaking nothing is more terrifying that maxed 3-3 terran mech, but I will say that the preceding reasons make bio a better option.
Mech is incredibly hard to pull off, but it in theory a better option than bio against protos. You cannot just play mech in conventional ways like playing with bio. You have to have fucking good macro and like I have said, build a lot of buildings around the map to make terrain too hard for protos to engage. When map is split in half, the game becomes war of attrition, and mech terran will win this war if played correctly. Protos just has nothing in their arsenal to win that game.
Does this mean terran is overpowered? yes Why no one plays mech then? Pros play for living and they rather play more convenient styles and lets be honest, most progamers just copy others build without any intellectual though put in it. Mech is also hard as hell, while good terrans can utilize bio with good succes so they have no reason to change.
EPT
