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Husky casts differently when he's casting games on his own youtube channel than he did when he cast at a major tournament such as MLG last year. On his youtube channel, he knows that the crowd he's broadcasting to is massively broad, and generally, a large portion of the casual sc2 fanbase. He aims to please his target audience with his casts and he does a terrific job of that, not by being analytical, but by being exciting and observing the exciting stuff. Hence, when you have a game between WhiteRa and a relative unknown to people who don't follow the scene closely like coLGoswser, it's perfectly understandable in my eyes for Husky to set a large portion of his in game focus to the bigger name.
When you see him cast at MLG he provides a much more balanced overview of the game, at least in my opinion.
I think when you have someone such as Mr Bitter - who became famous in the sc2 community for his zerg analysis and commentary - its just natural that they talk more about what they know about. He can't explain all the intricacies of a terran build order but perhaps he can for a zerg, so he uses this knowledge when he casts. I really don't have a problem with it, he's a fantastic caster in my opinion.
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Husky is the non technical caster, more of the fun guy. So your not going to get much from him in terms of builds. So thats probably why he focused on the more known player, and talk about how good he is and so on. I havent watched a husky solo cast in a while, but I liked his casts at mlg with other casters.
Mr.Bitter is a zerg player and likes zergs, which is quite obvious from his casts. So he tends to focus at that. I've never actually watched his solo casts, but with rotterdam it's quite a nice back and forth because rotterdam likes protoss and supports toss.
At the same time someone like day9 will focus on the both sides, because he's a more rounded technical caster.
So yes, one sided casting is kinda bad, but at times it's just the result of the casters strengths/likes.
Edit: Came in thinking this was going to be about koreans and foreigners, with foreigners casting, luckily it wasnt that :D
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I think this annoys me so much when I am watching mr.bitter casting, he is always only focusing upon the foreigner or just the one player
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On March 19 2012 23:28 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:22 kurrysauce wrote:
Kinda noticed it during the Lone star clash with mr bitter & his co caster. Especially so in the game between heavenslight and select. Light seem to be playing EXTREMELY greedy in the early game , building 3 roaches to defend against hellions hoping that select doesn't take the risk and just run past the roaches. The casters just kept saying "wonderful , amazing , brilliant , intelligent play by heaven" or something along that lines.
But I guess mr bitter's biasness has been discussed to death anyway. Don't really see obvious biasness in any other caster though This is different. Two ways to be biased: (1)praise and congratulate one player more than the other and (2)report what one player is doing more than the other. (1) is pretty common and has already been discussed quite a bit. I think (2) is what we're talking about here and it's a bigger problem because it prevents the viewers from following the game well. It's like having vision on only one player. These games need to be in the 3rd person perspective. When viewing and talking about only one player's perspective at length, the 3rd person perspective is dropped.
Tyler essentially hits the nail on the head here. The first one is very subjective. The caster may think a move or decision deserves more praise than you do. Neither of you are necessarily wrong (unless of course the praise originates from ignorance in the first place) on the point and one player will always be praised more than the other, that's just the way things go. It's also ok for casters to have a favourite just like viewers do.
What is not ok is compromising the viewing experience by giving a lopsided view of the match. I'd go as far as to say that's bad production. Casters are part of the production, they are responsible for how the match is presented the audience. If they don't present it properly then they aren't doing their jobs correctly.
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I think it's also easier (as a caster) to comment on what you know... I play terran so it's easier for me to watch the terran base and let the viewers know what and why a player is doing. (Sometimes it's also that, as a fan myself, I want to see what "my favorite player" is doing.) I do agree that casters should focus on trying to show the WHOLE game and give equal analysis to both parties. Sometimes, one player is dictating more of the action or doing something unusual that warrants more attention. I'd also like to point out that I think Mr.B has gotten a LOT better about being less bias. I was not a big fan of his show, however I think he's really developed as a caster.
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On March 19 2012 23:13 StarMoon wrote:
I don't care about bias.
Over-focus on one kind of thing, if its a kind of thing I don't care about, does turn me off a cast tho. The Mr Bitter and zerg play being a great example of a cast I've turned off in the past.
I personally dislike any caster showing bias. But usually it doesn't make me dislike a caster or not want to watch them cast.
It may add some personality or flavor, but a caster can do that without showing bias and it merely proves a point that as professional as any caster is. Having bias makes them as imperfect as anyone else.
Khaldor is among my favorite casters but from time to time he shows a little bias, though to me it's not a big issue of it since he does try to balance it out.
Bitter is probably the most excessive of the biased casters next to Husky. Rotti on the other hand despite his great knowledge and experience of Toss tries to come across as the more balanced unbiased of the duo which is pretty good.
Then there's Artosis with his flat out NesTea nuthuggery. I honestly hope he stops with them NesTea is god jokes and all that jazz. Though he doesn't show too much bias for a Toss player in Code S least from what I've seen as of late this year (or maybe I'm not looking hard enough).
For the most part caster bias to a race, player, or something in regards to the game balance imo shouldn't really be around or accepted if they want esports to survive (insert Caster Bias is killing esports), but it is and there's not much we can do about it. People can try to make a note of it and maybe if possible tell a caster they're doing it in hopes of them possibly trying to prevent it in the future.
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Usually if I find myself focused on the caster, I shut off the stream. It doesn't happen often, but it has happened. It's kinda like John Madden vs Dick Vitale. My father could watch Madden, but Vitale had to go on mute and he would listen to the radio broadcast. Same caster will annoy 10 different people for different reasons.
I always catch Biscuit winking at me through the camera. He don't think I see him, but I do, pisses me off.
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One solution that I know is to let a 3rd person be the observer. The casters can say whatever they want but the observer will provide enough information for the viewers to get satisfied.
But this can also lead to problems such as bad synch and a worse viewer experience.
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On March 19 2012 23:26 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:05 XiGua wrote:
This is a common ocurrence for casters who play a certain race or root for a certain player.
I often see HuskyStarcraft only care about White-Ra's base and build while almost NEVER looking at the opponent. Though very understandable since "Speshul tactics" are very interesting this brings forth a 1-sided commentary.
In a game, the caster should commentate as much as possible on both player's builds and how they develop throughout the game. We don't only see this problem with husky, other commentators such as Mr.Bitter who loves to commentate on Zerg play also show a 1-sided commentary sometimes.
The problem with this kind of commentaries is that you never see the other side of the spectrum. People who root for the other player might get irritated that they don't see what their favourite is doing.
I don't know, do you guys ever feel that you watch a 1-sided commentary?
Is it even possible to completely remove this kind of commentary from the scene!? I never see 1-sided commentary. Just because a caster plays a particular race and shares insight into that race when they casts doesn't make them biased, it makes them good(and Mr. Bitter often relates those insights onto how it affects the other side, not sure why you are calling him out like that. That's what is supposed to happen). And sometimes, only 1 of the bases is actually worth focusing on, because that's where the interesting action is going on. It's up to the observer to decide what gets shown and what doesn't, and sometimes one of the players just has more that should be shown than the other player. But I have yet to see casts that solely dwell on one side and never commentate on the other. + Show Spoiler +(except for that one joke cast of I think Joshy with the immortal warpin, but the whole point of ignoring was the reveal of that joke) It really sounds like it's just your bias showing through.
Your very narrowly defining 1-sided commentary. To me one sided commentary includes going on and on about how awesome one player is playing when its clear that its not the truth or that its an exaggeration. This is what Mr. Bitter is guilty of on a regular basis especially in ZvT. He will be saying something about how awesome the zerg is, then the terran wins the fight which everyone knew was because he was ahead, and then he'll just say something like, oh well thats terran and mules! (slight dramatization).
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The only problem I see is when the casters also control the camera, because if they are talking/focusing on one specific thing, they are also going to follow it with the camera view so we might miss what is happening everywhere else. That's why a dedicated observer is awesome because the casters can choose to look at whatever they want on their screen to get a better in-depth view and me as an observer can both listen to what is happening and seeing something else going on.
Of course it's not good if it happens too often but sometimes I even get tired of hearing Tastosis cast but then Grooveshark and Legend got me covered 
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On March 19 2012 23:48 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:26 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 19 2012 23:05 XiGua wrote:
This is a common ocurrence for casters who play a certain race or root for a certain player.
I often see HuskyStarcraft only care about White-Ra's base and build while almost NEVER looking at the opponent. Though very understandable since "Speshul tactics" are very interesting this brings forth a 1-sided commentary.
In a game, the caster should commentate as much as possible on both player's builds and how they develop throughout the game. We don't only see this problem with husky, other commentators such as Mr.Bitter who loves to commentate on Zerg play also show a 1-sided commentary sometimes.
The problem with this kind of commentaries is that you never see the other side of the spectrum. People who root for the other player might get irritated that they don't see what their favourite is doing.
I don't know, do you guys ever feel that you watch a 1-sided commentary?
Is it even possible to completely remove this kind of commentary from the scene!? I never see 1-sided commentary. Just because a caster plays a particular race and shares insight into that race when they casts doesn't make them biased, it makes them good(and Mr. Bitter often relates those insights onto how it affects the other side, not sure why you are calling him out like that. That's what is supposed to happen). And sometimes, only 1 of the bases is actually worth focusing on, because that's where the interesting action is going on. It's up to the observer to decide what gets shown and what doesn't, and sometimes one of the players just has more that should be shown than the other player. But I have yet to see casts that solely dwell on one side and never commentate on the other. + Show Spoiler +(except for that one joke cast of I think Joshy with the immortal warpin, but the whole point of ignoring was the reveal of that joke) It really sounds like it's just your bias showing through. Your very narrowly defining 1-sided commentary. To me one sided commentary includes going on and on about how awesome one player is playing when its clear that its not the truth or that its an exaggeration. This is what Mr. Bitter is guilty of on a regular basis especially in ZvT. He will be saying something about how awesome the zerg is, then the terran wins the fight which everyone knew was because he was ahead, and then he'll just say something like, oh well thats terran and mules! (slight dramatization).
Except that when a caster goes on about how awesome 1 player is, that is opinion. Whether you don't think that it's the truth or is an exaggeration is also just an opinion. One of the casters purposes is to point out when 1 player is doing something awesome or cool or innovative, and it's almost never done to excess.
The feeling of excess is usually people's own bias coloring their interpretation of the cast. When the casters talks about the listener's race, the listener is content and it doesn't stick out in memory, but when casters talk about the other side, it sticks out since they don't want or care about hearing that part. Then they make threads bitching about the part they remember, and not the part they don't.
And especially Mr. Bitter doesn't say things like that, if he is confused about the outcome of a game, he'll try to analyze what happened afterwards instead of blowing it off. He does the exact opposite of what you describe.
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Personally, I just mute the casters most of the time other than when I watch GSL because tasteless and artosis are so funny to listen to. I've never tuned into a MLG and probably won't be able to because of their PPV, hopefully I'll be able to and hear some good commentating from their casters.
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On March 20 2012 00:12 BicBootyBoi wrote:
Personally, I just mute the casters most of the time other than when I watch GSL because tasteless and artosis are so funny to listen to. I've never tuned into a MLG and probably won't be able to because of their PPV, hopefully I'll be able to and hear some good commentating from their casters.
This really has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
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A good commentator is biased towards the guy that is losing.
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On March 19 2012 23:15 bluQ wrote:
Yea at Lonestarclash i felt this happend quite often.
Imo it is okay if done sometimes but at LSC it somewhat annoyed me to see rotti and alex(?) talking only about grubby when he was playin sleep (a really really great zerg to look at considering that you could build a story).
But yea as we would say in germany "we are complaining on a high comfort level". Imo.
Rotterdam and Bitter always talks "too much" about their friends. Always, you have to listen to countless things about Dimaga. And no, I do not dislike either of those two, or Dimaga for that matter, but sometimes it's a bit too much.
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it might be partly the problem when the caster mains 1 race specifically, they look at what the player who is playing their race more because they feel more comfortable and confident in talking about strategies,builds etc of their own chosen race.
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On March 19 2012 23:46 XiGua wrote:
One solution that I know is to let a 3rd person be the observer. The casters can say whatever they want but the observer will provide enough information for the viewers to get satisfied.
But this can also lead to problems such as bad synch and a worse viewer experience.
I really like that idea. Whenever there is a third person doing the observing I feel like the camera work is much better. While the observer still reacts to what the casters say they often notice things like drops quicker because they don't get caught up in some kind of thought they are just trying to explain. The third person observer is a really good addition to professional casting in my opinion and was missing at Lone Star Clash for example. The constant clicking on upgrades and stuff like that while talking about them was a bit annoying and unnecessary in my opinion.
What do casters think about a third person observing? I can imagine it to be quite annoying not to have camera control but on the other hand it keeps you on your feet to pick up on what is going on.
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lol bias results because it shows that the caster is human
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It's mainly a problem with Casters observing themselves... sometimes you really see basically only one players base for the whole game...
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I think it's actually really hard to give both players the exact same amount of attention, the best way to prohibit this is to simply use a neutral observer, caster x can be as biased towards player y as he wants, the neutral observer will do his best to show both bases equally.
But I feel like before we even worry about this we might want to ensure that casters actually know what they are talking about. A lot of caster either have the game knowledge of someone between bronze and platinum league (tb, moletrap, catzpijamas etc. pp.) or they don't know the full picture and just straight up have no idea about certain regions (best example is bitterdam not knowing shit about korean metagame). I feel like before we worry about bias etc. pp. we should force casters to actually understand the game and be good ad it, back when the game came out it was ok to explain every single piece of the game, but listening to moletrap/tb explaining a forge fast expand or how a drop works almost two years into the game is just straight up wrong.
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EPT
