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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote:
Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more.
100% Agree.
I think people behind this either a) realized this went too far, or 2) feel good about taking action.
This is a real guy with a real life and dedication to esports [which is more than what most of people here can say, unarguably] and essentially, the Internet wrecked his new job and potentially stemmed future opportunities. What the hell?
It actually looks like the community is too important for the small "please the customers" procedure of E-sports organizations as it is currently. Because the noisiest group wins out - may not be the majority - but if they make a mess of it, it hurts E-sports, orb isn't even a new icon, being around before/since SCII beta.
The scene's getting really political and as a growing scene, that's just a terrible feature.
The next question is, who's next? And believe me it will happen, and this cycle's just going to happen again.
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On March 09 2012 13:42 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +The funny thing about the word "nigger" is that it seems to offend white people more than black people. To all the people in support of Alex's view point (and to Alex himself), what are your opinions on black rappers/comedians/people using the word freely and without consequence? Call a black guy "nigger" IRL and be prepared for an assbeating. That's all there is to say about that. They find it very offensive. Now, blacks do call their friends "nigga" sometimes but that word is different. My black friends will say to me "what up my nigga?" and I'll say it to them if I know they're cool with it. But I wouldn't say "my nigga" to a black guy I didn't know.
Right, because there's no context there. Its really backwards that people are willing to accept the fact that words can have different meaning depending on context when the situation involves black comedians or rappers using "nigger". But when a white guy uses the word its automatically assumed racist because now we have all seem to forgotten the meaning of context.
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TL might need to reevaluate it's featured stream standard but it's absolutely silly to say "You can't right X wrong because Y wrong still happens."
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For people who are saying "It's not a big deal"
I hope I catch you scrawny dorks using the N word at an event. You can get punched in the teeth and be brought back to reality. I know you don't get outside much, but get a clue.
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On March 09 2012 13:57 Lupita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote:
Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more. Completely agreed on all accounts. This really creates a slippery slope in my opinion, do we really think there aren't other players/casters/community members that have used this type of language before? EG has opened a can of worms by essentially allowing Reddit to influence them in a very extreme manner.
You should really be blaming Alex's African Studies professor from forever ago.
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Well written post and I agree with the whole thing.
People saying it's an overreaction are ridiculous. If you want this industry taken seriously than you have to hold it to similarly serious standards. If an ESPN broadcaster was found to have PUBLICLY ranted using racial slurs would they still be in the job? Nope, the guy who wrote the Chink in the Armor headline about Jeremy Lin lost his job, and now so did Orb. Fair is fair.
These are the standards in the real world, when you are a paid representative of a company and sponsors who have an image to protect.
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On March 09 2012 13:58 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On March 09 2012 13:53 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:51 Thorantham wrote:On March 09 2012 13:47 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:39 Nick! wrote:On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote:
How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass. User was temp banned for this post. Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye. In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired? wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable? Please explain how you came to that conclusion from my post. What about Destiny saying "nigger" and not being de-featured? Not relevant to my argument. I was not trying to make any statements on TL policy. I was only stating that TL has defeatured streamers for one word and has neglected to do so for other words, and that practice reflects the way that the two words are treated in society.
Aren't you an admin on TL? What you post does represent policy, just like what Orb said represents EG.
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desensitization of a word through use.... best way to destroy the meaning behind it.
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All of you who contacted EG over this are just a bunch of self-righteous cowards. Keep thinking you are doing good when you're really not, or trying to makeup for something when you're not.
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On March 09 2012 13:54 TheMute wrote:
That really sucks... How the hell are random internet people able to ruin someone's life? x.x
Think before posting. He managed to ruin it himself.
Your statement is like saying "the Jews ruined their lives for living in Germany 1930-1945"
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On March 09 2012 13:58 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:54 TheMute wrote:
That really sucks... How the hell are random internet people able to ruin someone's life? x.x I think you've revealed a subtle irony here, among all the people lecturing about how people who use the anonymity of the internet to use whatever words they please will get what's coming to them, they don't realize they just assembled an anonymous mob and lynched orb with impunity.
Random internet people have made lots of people take their own life, because of sexual orientation. Maybe even race, although I haven't heard anything about that.
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On March 09 2012 12:54 BandonBanshee wrote:
How is anyone suprised....Is there actually a job where you can say Nigger and not be fired? (Besides a prison guard)
Rappers say it on a regular basis... I don't see any of them being let go from their contracts.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:00 Thorantham wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:58 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On March 09 2012 13:53 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:51 Thorantham wrote:On March 09 2012 13:47 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:39 Nick! wrote:On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote:
How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass. User was temp banned for this post. Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye. In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired? wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable? Please explain how you came to that conclusion from my post. What about Destiny saying "nigger" and not being de-featured? Not relevant to my argument. I was not trying to make any statements on TL policy. I was only stating that TL has defeatured streamers for one word and has neglected to do so for other words, and that practice reflects the way that the two words are treated in society. Aren't you an admin on TL? What you post does represent policy, just like what Orb said represents EG.
Even if I were an admin, and I am not, you still need to explain how my post implies that TL condones the word "faggot."
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Honestly, this is the right choice. For whatever reason the precedent in the gaming community is for racist, sexist, and homophobic talk. Frankly, this precedent is one of the reasons I'm literally embarrassed to call myself a gamer in front of some people. We've got to behave better.
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On March 09 2012 13:58 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On March 09 2012 13:53 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:51 Thorantham wrote:On March 09 2012 13:47 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:39 Nick! wrote:On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote:
How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass. User was temp banned for this post. Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye. In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired? wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable? Please explain how you came to that conclusion from my post. What about Destiny saying "nigger" and not being de-featured? Not relevant to my argument. I was not trying to make any statements on TL policy. I was only stating that TL has defeatured streamers for one word and has neglected to do so for other words, and that practice reflects the way that the two words are treated in society.
I would argue that TL should put their featured streamers to a higher standard as well, and apply the rules consistently. Maybe this is just the catalyst necessary to do this?
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On March 09 2012 14:01 Ghost.573 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:54 BandonBanshee wrote:
How is anyone suprised....Is there actually a job where you can say Nigger and not be fired? (Besides a prison guard) Rappers say it on a regular basis... I don't see any of them being let go from their contracts.
I am so glad we are not at their level.
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On March 09 2012 13:58 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On March 09 2012 13:53 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:51 Thorantham wrote:On March 09 2012 13:47 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:39 Nick! wrote:On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote:
How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass. User was temp banned for this post. Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye. In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired? wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable? Please explain how you came to that conclusion from my post. What about Destiny saying "nigger" and not being de-featured? Not relevant to my argument. I was not trying to make any statements on TL policy. I was only stating that TL has defeatured streamers for one word and has neglected to do so for other words, and that practice reflects the way that the two words are treated in society.
And that may be a valid premise. But when Alex explicitly says at the end that the two words are comparable, and that the orb action was take for moral reasons (not because of public pressure) then bringing up idra is a valid comparison to at least discuss.
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Personally I'd like TL to make an official policy post about defeaturing streams if the person uses "nigger" or "faggot" repeatedly. Make it a clear warning so everyone has time to adjust their behavior. Those words are disrespectful and there is no reason they should continue to be used in community.
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I'm sorry to say this, but you guys really over reacted this whole Orb situation.
You shouldn't take offense to just a plain word, but the context. Orb wasn't being racist, he just got mad in a ladder game.
Remember that Weapon of Choice show EG produces with DJWheat?
http://blip.tv/weaponofchoice/weapon-of-choice-e27-05-29-2011-5219231
Destiny explains his views on words and context pretty well.
I am only upset with Orb for lying about it, that's it.
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EPT
