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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 13:51 Silvertine wrote: There is no contest, nigger is the far more offensive term. How there are still people who don't understand that is a mystery to me.
It's absolutely not. What make you so sure that this is the case is beyond me.
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On March 09 2012 13:55 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:51 Quotidian wrote:
I don't think that's the case. Black people are able to understand context just like everybody else. If a white person calls a black person a nigger and both of them understand the context is friendly and meant as a joke, it's very unlikely to cause any kind of negative confrontation.
There was nothing friendly about the way orb said it. exactly. orbs use if the word was with malice and was insulting. he was trying to put his opponent down by saying what he said.
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On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote: Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more.
Completely agreed on all accounts.
This really creates a slippery slope in my opinion, do we really think there aren't other players/casters/community members that have used this type of language before?
EG has opened a can of worms by essentially allowing Reddit to influence them in a very extreme manner.
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On March 09 2012 13:53 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote: Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more. Thank you Chill for saying it how it really is. Hopefully people will read your post and realise what they have done wrong and how they have really messed with orb's REAL LIFE in a bad way
This isn't just a game anymore, it's moved WAY past that. There are millions of dollars in the scene, a few players make 6 figures. This is a business, no different from any other business in the real world.
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Tough decision to make, who's to say whether it is the right one or not?
That being said, very well written response by E.G. making their stance completely clear, while not perpetuating the "witchhunt."
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Pretending that this is not a 100% business motivated decision is laughably hypocritcal. He writes up an essay about how using racial slurs is just so morally reprehensible that EG can't keep orb on their organization while Idra and Huk sit comfortably practicing away on their PCs. If orb was a tenth as valuable to EG as huk or idra this would not have happened. That orb gets fired for remarks made long before he worked for EG where Huk and idra made similar ones WHILE being employed by EG is even worse. Firing someone for something that happened long before they were on contract is bad enough, but wrapping "STOP EMAILING OUR SPONOSORS" up in "ITS WRONG TO SAY N-----" is downright reprehensible. Orb seems like a dick, but Alex seems several levels below that.
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On March 09 2012 13:56 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:51 Rorschach wrote: I can't believe EG caved to the vocal few in regards to this decision. Extremely hypocritical to see their star player calling other players a faggot in broadcasted matches and they just let is slide. Personally I will be contacting EG's sponsors to notify them I do not support them because of how they handled this situation.....
I agree with you. While I'm not a fan of Orb, they're blowing a minuscule problem out of proportion. The real issue in my opinion is the lying to his managers.
And that issue lies completely unaddressed in Alexs and Orbs statements...this had nothing to do with even what was said this was all spin and money.
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Only decision available to EG, very very good explanation given and it makes perfect sense that they terminated Orbs contract. With that being said I believe that the community, primarily the Reddit community, did what they always do and created a controversy and made it bigger than it should have been. They have derailed Orbs career as a caster and I hope he is able to rebound, everyone rages and my experiences show that the N word is very very common and sometimes we get caught up in the moment... Reddit wanted a witch hunt and they got it. But EG had to do this
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:53 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:51 Thorantham wrote:On March 09 2012 13:47 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 13:39 Nick! wrote:On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass. User was temp banned for this post. Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye. In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired? wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable? Please explain how you came to that conclusion from my post. What about Destiny saying "nigger" and not being de-featured? Not relevant to my argument. I was not trying to make any statements on TL policy. I was only stating that TL has defeatured streamers for one word and has neglected to do so for other words, and that practice reflects the way that the two words are treated in society.
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On March 09 2012 13:54 TheMute wrote: That really sucks... How the hell are random internet people able to ruin someone's life? x.x I think you've revealed a subtle irony here, among all the people lecturing about how people who use the anonymity of the internet to use whatever words they please will get what's coming to them, they don't realize they just assembled an anonymous mob and lynched orb with impunity.
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While I agree that we should try to clean up our language online, I think dismissing Orb is the wrong action especially because this occurred before he was contacted by EG. When it comes to light you say something along the lines of "We understand that in the past Orb has made comments that were insensitive to certain groups of people, and we have discussed this with him, and he will refrain from this action in the future. However if these actions continue we will not be lenient in our punishment." While I don't condone flaming of someone I don't think Orb should be let go for an action taken before his current position with EG was given.
Thank you :D that is all <3 <3 <3
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College kids don't understand anything about racism, post in a 40+ page thread on how it's totally cool to be no fluff with your black friends. Sickening display of ignorance and stupidity.
Well done by Alex.
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On March 09 2012 13:57 Lupita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote: Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more. Completely agreed on all accounts. This really creates a slippery slope in my opinion, do we really think there aren't other players/casters/community members that have used this type of language before? EG has opened a can of worms by essentially allowing Reddit to influence them in a very extreme manner. community out cry always has a huge influence in how the world operates dude
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On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote: Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more.
Great post, perspective at it's finest.
Oh and thanks Reddit..........
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On March 09 2012 13:56 SiguR wrote:
Though the comedy of the situation surely must be noted. The ceo of the organization he just signed to happens to have a degree in black studies and social justice? baaaaaaad luck.
I know! I know! I was thinking the same thing
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Alex, I am so happy to have someone like you in the community. Thank you.
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Good job EG. For orb the punishment is harsh, but these things will come back to bite you. I hope he can see this through and come back at a later date.
Let this put the community on notice. You can no longer hide behind 'just raging' or 'gaming culture/vernacular' as an excuse to make these insults. The sooner the community grows out of this immature habit, the sooner we can hit the big time.
N***** F***** Rape/Raped
None acceptable IMO. Players and Casters take note.
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On March 09 2012 13:52 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:15 iloveAthene wrote:On March 09 2012 12:58 kilerz wrote:Counter-Strike players (mostly White and Asian) decided that it would be fun to masquerade as an African-American Counter-Strike team. Just curious... why is it ok to refer to Caucasians/Europeans as "white" but not African-Americans as "black" and Asians as either "yellow" or "brown"? Anyone else see the problem with this statement? It's fine to use the word "black" still. And "caucasian" isn't correct anyways. It implies that one's ancestors came from the Caucasus Mountain area of Europe/Asia. What annoys is how the word "asian" seems to only mean people from East Asia nowadays. Asia is a huge continent with people of all types Well in all honesty, caucasian has its own meaning, in that it means you're white. If you read on wikipedia, the name 'caucasian' was chosen because the scientist who came up with the naming during the 1800s thought Georgian men were beatiful. Yeah, exactly that's what I mean. The term "caucasian" was coined by a group of "racial scientists" who were basically eugenicists. They thought Georgians were the best example of the "White Race." The whole thing has been disproven and is just silly.
edit:what I mean is there is no "White Race"
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On March 09 2012 13:49 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:44 wats0n wrote:On March 09 2012 13:31 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 13:24 wats0n wrote:
I would implore you Mr. Garfield to reevaluate your approach to the issue of racism because I believe it's fundamentally the wrong philosophy that we as a society need to achieve the ultimate ideal: total eradication of racism. Focusing on the context and the message that people are communicating and not the words themselves is the proper ideology. I would implore you that you are missing Garfield's point. He doesn't want the word to be dis-empowered, and he finds the cavalier and casual use of the word by nerds to be a slap in the face to all the people that have persecuted with it. For it to enter the lexicon of everyday language is ignoring everyone that it offends, and only deepens and widens the racial divide. Pretending that words don't matter, or only matters 'in-context,' just ignores racial issues, and doesn't 'eradicate' anything. That's absurd. The word only has meaning as it exists in the vernacular. Words have undergone changes in meaning in English for hundreds of years. English itself is only a vernacular language of the common folk. To suggest a word should be frozen in time and given deference is only perpetuating racism and growing the thoughts associated. No word has meaning on its own in a vacuum. You can't say that word to somebody with zero English experience and expect that by its euphony the person will recognize the sounds as being racist. That's total ignorance. On top of that, black scholars have explained the use of that word by black people themselves as a means of them re-inventing the word and changing the meaning to something positive. It's not simply about words and meanings...it's about the act of the using the n-word as part of a broader attempt to express disgust toward someone else. Orb was obviously not using it in the sense of black scholars who have demonstrated the manner in which a word with a negative connotation can be re-worked into a positive verbal gesture. Yes, meanings change. However, in a climate like that of the contemporary U.S. where, as Alex patiently discusses, racism continues to exist in very subtle, yet still incapacitating ways, the burden is on us to be vigilant in trying to understand how we continue to perpetuate racial inequalities when we are supposedly a post-racial society.
Orb was using the word as it exists in gaming vernacular.
Being vigilant does not include contributing to the perseverence and empowerment of an ultimate evil super word to demean a black person. I would think allowing the natural evolution of words and the passing of a black eye in American English history to fade into extinction the favorable practice than freezing the meaning in time and reinforcing the associated ideas and emotions associated with the word. Passing down a written and oral history associated with the word and persecuting any opposition to it benefits who? To what purpose is this being done? For the preservation of such an archaic and sad word? It's not worth it.
And I can assure you this is an American problem. That word is specific to American English vernacular. The word does not have power over all black people as previously implied. It does not cross cultures and borders. Allow time to heal wounds and be intelligent about what is the meaning of words.
Suggesting words have power is as stupid as suggesting there is a guy who throws lightningbolts or the sun is pulled across the sky by a chariot.
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