Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
The funny thing about the word "nigger" is that it seems to offend white people more than black people. To all the people in support of Alex's view point (and to Alex himself), what are your opinions on black rappers/comedians/people using the word freely and without consequence?
Call a black guy "nigger" IRL and be prepared for an assbeating. That's all there is to say about that. They find it very offensive.
Now, blacks do call their friends "nigga" sometimes but that word is different. My black friends will say to me "what up my nigga?" and I'll say it to them if I know they're cool with it. But I wouldn't say "my nigga" to a black guy I didn't know.
I don't think that's the case. Black people are able to understand context just like everybody else. If a white person calls a black person a nigger and both of them understand the context is friendly and meant as a joke, it's very unlikely to cause any kind of negative confrontation.
Posting this video again.. bit I'm referring to is at about 8 minutes
And here is Slavoj Zizek with some interesting points about racism/racist jokes
On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote: Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation.
Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation.
It's just dumb.
Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything.
Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation.
Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this.
And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this.
As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more.
Well looking at it from a community perspective, we should recognize that EG didn't have a very large choice. I'm sure EG's sponsors caught wind of this and weren't happy at all. And as the community we always say how we want to be more mainstream and have more sponsors and such. Well, I think it would be tough for anybody to find a sponsor if this time of language was seen as acceptable. Was their a big which hunt? Yes, but it almost feels as if he has to be punished like this to set an example.
I (and i think a lot of people are like me) do not need to know your personal principle or EG opinon on "racism" or " racist" for that matter, so no need to clarify that. On certain level, I think you make a scene out of this and try to improve EG image. I honestly do not think Orb is "racist" at all, he just raged when he played SC2. Everyone needs to let it go and EG foremost should do it first instead of writing a post with the words "racist", "racism" used repeatedly. Starcraft 2 community does not tolerate racism but it also need to know how to forgive. I know the OP mention we should mention Orb in his post but i dont feel that is the tone of the post. My 2 cents so no need to hate.
... what Alex wrote in his long write up addresses EXACTLY the point you highlighted in bold. I thought it was well written and explains his position wonderfully. I really do hope that you've read the entire post and understood the contents.
Secondly, orb will eventually be forgiven. From the post it's evident that Alex does not bear any ill will. For the starcraft 2 community to get bigger, there needs to be higher level of professionalism shown than the overall level now. I've always maintained and believed this since the SC2 scene exploded.
On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not.
I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass.
User was temp banned for this post.
Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye.
People who are comparing the two probably agree that there is a double standard and think this double standard has no reason to exist (wether they think both should be punished, or both are not that offensive).
...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community .
Then sack Idra.
No. IdrA has been willing to improve and IdrA didn't lie about his infractions. When people are willing to improve they should be rewarded not punished.
Orb was not willing to improve. He already had a discussion with TL in the past about his behavior so he knew what he was saying was unacceptable. He also LIED TO HIS EMPLOYER instead of admitting that what he did was a mistake.
Reddit didn't ruin his career, he destroyed it himself. Now that orb and Katu have something in common, maybe they can co-cast some silver or gold league games together?
it was necessary. It sucks that orb (who i liked as a caster) had to be the example, but this is a solid message to the professionals in sc2. Destiny says that people shouldn't be offended by language and I was never offended by Orb's saying, however to risk you team, sponsors and fans approval, professionalism is a necessity.
On March 09 2012 13:43 hnQ wrote: that same "amazing" community was the one who caused this shitstorm, was the one who contacted the sponsors, and was the one who made orb go stupid about lying to his employer and get himself fired
Agreed. It's partially the community's fault that having Orb represent EG was bad for business due to their constant barrage of e-mails aimed at EG's sponsors (who I assume weren't very happy about this whole incident). Things would have turned out so much better if whoever had an issue with Orb's bm e-mailed EG's management instead of trying to start a shitstorm witchhunt on Reddit.
That said, shame on Orb for attempting to rationalize his shit. IdrA acknowledges his problems while Orb blatantly lied.
On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not.
I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass.
User was temp banned for this post.
The N----- has a lot more history to it than the word F-----
I doubt it has, pretty sure people were burning gays before the word nigger ever came into existence.
Learn to read. He said the word, not homophobia altogether.
learn history faggots were the bundle of sticks used to burn people.
Yea to burn witches, and people accused of being gay. Oh, and watching sitcoms isn't really learning history.
On March 09 2012 13:48 TheRhox wrote: The worst thing people could have done is contact EGs sponsors and complain about this, honestly I can't believe this "community" sometimes, we all want to try to grow esports and people do stupid shit like that..
Yea what better way to help e-sports grow in the public eye by letting them know we have immature casters slurring out racial slurs at will and whenever he's angry because he has no self-control. That's the plan, Stan.
Thats the same thing at all. Complaining to sponsors doesn't just screw over EG but could potentially turn them away from the community as a whole. Complaining to sponsors about orb isnt the proper channel but a stupid one.
If he's not comfortable saying it, just let it be, for crying out loud.
I more or less agree with everything in the OP, I just question the transparency of the writer. As many others have mentioned, this seems like a double standard regarding IdrA, but the fact is, IdrA does more for EG than Orb had or probably would have. It's not totally fair, but as we know or at least given to believe, IdrA and presumably the others hear about it when they behave poorly. Anyways, life isn't fair, EG is looking after itself.
Counter-Strike players (mostly White and Asian) decided that it would be fun to masquerade as an African-American Counter-Strike team.
Just curious... why is it ok to refer to Caucasians/Europeans as "white" but not African-Americans as "black" and Asians as either "yellow" or "brown"?
Anyone else see the problem with this statement?
It's fine to use the word "black" still. And "caucasian" isn't correct anyways. It implies that one's ancestors came from the Caucasus Mountain area of Europe/Asia.
What annoys is how the word "asian" seems to only mean people from East Asia nowadays. Asia is a huge continent with people of all types
Well in all honesty, caucasian has its own meaning, in that it means you're white. If you read on wikipedia, the name 'caucasian' was chosen because the scientist who came up with the naming during the 1800s thought Georgian men were beatiful. I don't understand how black could possibly be a inflammable term either, as that's what black people are called outside of the US. You can't really call a black person in France "African American". I guess "coloured" is an alternative. I think you usually specify more when a person is from for instance India. Koreans, Japanese and Chinese seem much closer to each other culturally, and therefore it's easy to bunch them together under 'asians', whereas Indians are just Indians. The east asian peoples are also harder to separate from each other if you don't know a lot of east asian people, so that's also a reason. That's my take on it atleast.
Either way, if you're a professional streamer, you kind of have to watch out what you put out there. Especially as there's been several other cases of people getting into trouble for saying something mildly offensive. It's kind of funny though, 'cause I remember thinking yesterday about people "dropping F bombs" in the starcraft community (Jinro) etc etc. and I recalled "Fuck" being mentioned twice in Swedish public television on prime time in two family entertainment programmes without anyone lifting an eyebrow.
I think the judgemental tone against people saying profanities is a bit over the top really. Isn't it kind of racist to say that the word 'nigger' is an insult thing anyway? It's an old term for black people. What's wrong with being black? Why's it even considered an insult? Shouldn't the person thinking it's an outrage, insulting and extremely demeaning to be called black be hung out?
TL;DR It's really kind of silly, but just don't say bad words when you're in the public eye and you'll get into less trouble. If you do, all bets are off. Everyone knows that.
On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not.
I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass.
User was temp banned for this post.
Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye.
In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired?
wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable?
Why do you stupid people continue to take things completely out of context?
i feel like our community is sometimes killing itself. we like drama more than the game. heck, i bet most of the people who rode the "get orb exposed" train barely play sc2. Sad...but I guess EG had to do what they had to do.
Anyone that says this community is mature has got to be way out of the loop.
Alex this isn't a level of maturity to be proud of. Nobody gives a fuck about what was said, the only thing people cared about was seeing how fast they could get this guy fired.
You will see the same thing happen with someone else next week.
On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote: Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation.
Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation.
It's just dumb.
Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything.
Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation.
Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this.
And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this.
As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more.
Thank you Chill for saying it how it really is. Hopefully people will read your post and realise what they have done wrong and how they have really messed with orb's REAL LIFE in a bad way
It is a damn shame that the community loses a caster as good as orb from this. I honestly hope that he comes back in a few months when people are less riled up about this and gets another chance (just for saying a word, he shouldn't have his career ruined). The biggest mistake made here was when he lied to EG. That was the worst possible thing he could have done.
Anyways, I am somewhat disappointed with Alex's response. Especially the part about the f-------- word. His own damn players, as well as destiny who has been on many EG-affiliated broadcasts use it liberally, and his stance is hypocritical. And this is absolutely nothing to be proud of. It's unfortunate.
The best thing that can happen at this point is for orb to work on his nerd-rage (or get a smurf and not stream with it) and be back after a while. I really hope that we don't lose a promising young caster forever. As for all the people who wrote to the freaking sponsors about this, do you think that something orb did on ladder, on his own time, really offends you a lot? Was it worth ruining a young guy's dream?
On March 09 2012 13:48 compucomp wrote: For the people who don't think what orb said was bad, doubt how strong the term nigger still is, or think this is some silly witch hunt, think about Rush Limbaugh. He has called Democrats just about any derogatory name he can think of. He just called a woman a slut for advocating a policy position he disagrees with. But I can recall no instance when he said nigger on the record, even though he's said many things that are, shall we say, not positive towards black people. If Rush Limbaugh believes that he can't say nigger and get away with it, this word must be really quite bad. Orb needed to fall on his sword quite hard to get out of this, and he didn't.
So now Rush Limbaugh is the precedent setter of what we can and cannot say?
Yes, in the sense that if even Rush finds the term nigger unacceptable, then this term must be really, really awful and we should shy away from it too. I never said the rest of Rush's stuff was acceptable.
On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not.
I'm sorry but that is complete shit, for example...if you are having a chat with your boss and you work in an office...say something like ''oh yeah he was acting like a complete faggot/nigger''...he will take it as it is, he will either not mention it all OR he will say something along the lines of oh i dont appreciate you using that language around me. Example 2 which is closer to what a caster is, Basketball (first sport that came to my head) if the commentators say oh wow kobe's acting like a real nigger/faggot you really think he would be fine with faggot but not nigger? Get your head out EG's ass.
User was temp banned for this post.
Let me use a counter- counter-example, a real world example. Way back in beta, Orb was defeatured for saying the word "nigger" while streaming, if I recall correctly. Yet that has never happened for people who've used the word "faggot" to my knowledge, nor do I recall that option ever being discussed. There is a double-standard there. The two words are not equivalent in the public eye.
In addition, Orb and Idra are at different levels of being a "public figure." You used the example of a sports broadcaster. Obviously if a sports commentator used either the n-word or f-word, they would be fired immediately. If an NFL player used the word "faggot," what would happen to him? Would he be fired?
wait, wait, so you've got a ban hammer, your saying that TL believes the use of and calling people "faggot" is acceptable?
Please explain how you came to that conclusion from my post.
EPT
