Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
On March 14 2012 13:23 KingHiram wrote: I play online games since 2002 and the first thing i realized was that many ppl who lose get very angry till the next game they win. After they win it's like the loss never happened and the anger was never there. And that was how it was for me. Till I found out about this thread. Now I feel like I come from a different world and have missed all the ppl who would gladly have defended me, when i was winning a game and were called things like "lowlife" "nazi" "motherfucker" and so on. Well the thing is, i felt great in that situation because i was winning the game. I never thought about who that other person might be or what he thought about my personality. It was just normal in a game.
And then in sc2 i watched player streams. It was absolutly normal to see trashtalk, shitchat, spam and flame - but that was always because they were playing the game and their reactions based on that game. I found streams like naruto, idra, orb and so on who would show me the streamer himself very emotionaly and doing all that stuff i mentioned. And hell orb was known for that since beta. It was normal and entertaining to me - watching how he would lose but react with flames while explaining what cheap tactics his enemy was using. Cheap tactics were the reason for some hard flame - yes. It was a normal way to carry out the reaction to me.
And now i find this thread making me wonder about many things... Stay true loses it's meaning I guess. The price for big money eSports I guess. I don't like it.
sry 4 bad lang
I was thinking about this issue, and have an analogy and possible solution that might appease everyone.
NBA is widely considered one of the most successful, and best managed sports leagues in the world. People all over the world follow the NBA, and they've actually done an incredible job transforming the image and reputation of Black athletes -- hell, Black culture.
Part of their success has been their extremely strict guidelines for player conduct. Just the other day, a player got fined $25,000 for tweeting a picture of his girlfriend's butt (she was wearing underwear) as a joke.
It's absolutely nuts, but the NBA, knows it will always have to mitigate against the stereotype that young, black men are either clowns, gangsters or thugs.
Now, let's consider the typical NBA game broadcast on TV. The NBA could easily set up mic's at every game, and capture everything that is said on a basketball court. They could easily provide the intimate and intriguing experience of knowing what's going on in the players and coaches minds, as it happens. They already pick up ambient noises (squeaking sneakers, etc).
The reason they don't this is because in the heat of a game, players will say the rudest, craziest and most offensive shit ever.
Encouraging the SC2 community of casters and players to be more mature, and chose their language carefully, is one solution. Another solution is for players/caster to simply keep their public and personal lives separate, and for broadcasters to 'turn off the mics' while they are playing.
I know that what makes this community so special is that it feels like we have some kind of access to these players and casters ... but it's unreasonable to expect them to be on their best behaviour while they play. So ... let's not.
Players should just turn off their mics and not chat in-game. That way they can yell as many homophobic, racist, derogatory slurs as they want at the screen and no one would know. What happened to Orb would never happen again.
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
Why would women be offended by the word 'penis'? Sounds like some 18th century shit youre talkin there
Edit: and I'm willing to bet the majority of the population here are not German (or women for that matter...). If you think that the word 'penis' will offend someone, why would you carelessly go ahead and translate it for us? For shame sir, for shame
If you associate the right and good with one group, the excluded part can feel offended. This happens - unfortunately - all the time. Thus you said something that - by implication - could have offended a group.
I'm willing to bet, that the majority of the population here are not as rooted in the US PC culture to feel offended by some random guy using the N-word during his bnet rage.
As for why I'm giving the 'translation' (as 'Ding' just means 'thing' - though it is used for other things as well): Just to make people aware that words some people utter can have strange and sometimes even offensive meaning to others.
Disclaimer: I don't condone bnet rage. I just dislike the 'I tell your sponsors' mentality more and the way orb is painted as the racist villain even more.
On March 14 2012 18:46 Thrombozyt wrote: I'm willing to bet, that the majority of the population here are not as rooted in the US PC culture to feel offended by some random guy using the N-word during his bnet rage.
Anyone with an understanding of the English language knows that calling someone a 'nigger' is racist. It has absolutely nothing to do with "US PC culture".
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
I am pretty sure if orb had told his opponents that they were taking dumb penis risks, we would be having a much different discussion right now.
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
I am pretty sure if orb had told his opponents that they were taking dumb penis risks, we would be having a much different discussion right now.
And if orb told his opponents that he hopes they die a horrible death, people wouldnt have a problem, but the n-word gosh not that . Thats horrible. same old fight with the people who are unable to understand that context can change a words meaning, words do change and the N- word has been used in more than one way and has for a while.
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
I am pretty sure if orb had told his opponents that they were taking dumb penis risks, we would be having a much different discussion right now.
And if orb told his opponents that he hopes they die a horrible death, people wouldnt have a problem, but the n-word gosh not that . Thats horrible. same old fight with the people who are unable to understand that context can change a words meaning, words do change and the N- word has been used in more than one way and has for a while.
And what context are we supposed to think it's being used in when it's being used as an insult? Besides it's common knowledge that in america that word is a big no-no, I'm sure orb knew this quite well before going around spouting it.
Have been watching a lot of streams as of lately. 180 pages of this and I'm still not convinced any of this really means anything. Orb is the best knowledgeable well-rounded caster I look forward to being on air. I will watch fewer streams because of this and will miss the best caster to date IMO.
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
I am pretty sure if orb had told his opponents that they were taking dumb penis risks, we would be having a much different discussion right now.
And if orb told his opponents that he hopes they die a horrible death, people wouldnt have a problem, but the n-word gosh not that . Thats horrible. same old fight with the people who are unable to understand that context can change a words meaning, words do change and the N- word has been used in more than one way and has for a while.
And what context are we supposed to think it's being used in when it's being used as an insult? Besides it's common knowledge that in america that word is a big no-no, I'm sure orb knew this quite well before going around spouting it.
exactly it was used as an insult that was it. He didnt make any racist comments. If it is such a big no-no why have rappers , black people, gamers been using it for years ? Maybe america should have told them? But still I maintain that you still have to use a word in a different context to change a word. Instead of a deragatory term agaisnt black people , its used a general insult.
On March 14 2012 07:30 Diamond wrote: This thread has sooooooooooo run it's course now...............
The problem is that people keep coming in and trying to rationalize using the term 'nigger' with the same arguments that have been contradicted a thousand times.
Ding Ding Ding!
You realize, that you just used a German expression for 'penis' three times to express consent? I'd say that there migth be women that are offended now. You better not try to get a job in the moral SC2 community.
Sheesh.. and that after you said that you knew how to express yourself and that you had self-restraint... just to turn around and bust out the sexist language...
I am pretty sure if orb had told his opponents that they were taking dumb penis risks, we would be having a much different discussion right now.
And if orb told his opponents that he hopes they die a horrible death, people wouldnt have a problem, but the n-word gosh not that . Thats horrible. same old fight with the people who are unable to understand that context can change a words meaning, words do change and the N- word has been used in more than one way and has for a while.
And what context are we supposed to think it's being used in when it's being used as an insult? Besides it's common knowledge that in america that word is a big no-no, I'm sure orb knew this quite well before going around spouting it.
exactly it was used as an insult that was it. He didnt make any racist comments. If it is such a big no-no why have rappers , black people, gamers been using it for years ? Maybe america should have told them? But still I maintain that you still have to use a word in a different context to change a word. Instead of a deragatory term agaisnt black people , its used a general insult.
Yes, because putting the word "nigger" in a negative context isn't offensive to black people. So if I call someone a "dumb jew" would that not be racist even if the person I'm referring to isn't a jew? Or do you realize that simply using the word in a negative context is racism, since you are implying that black/jewish what have you, people are inferior.
If you use "nigger" as an insult, then you obviously have a negative opinion about black people, the context however is completely different when you use nigger in a more positive fashion like "what's up my nigga", which probably still isn't ok for white people to say, but definitely shouldn't be a problem for black people to say.
Let's just assume a someone calls me whitey or something like that, implying that being white is somewhat a bad thing, you would definitely assume that this person is insulting you by calling you white (in the right context), however if you just greet your friend with "what up whitey" especially when being a white person yourself, this obviously isn't meant to insult him. It is the context in which the word is said, now my example was of course made up since nobody uses "whitey" lol, but when you use "nigger" to insult someone, you are also insulting black people and this is obviously wrong. The word nigga is simply taboo for white people and we should accept that, if you don't accept that then you are either a social reject or a racist.
It s funny how so many people are taking a high moral standing shitting on orb for this while they themselfs are using words like "gay" and "fagg" in the same context as orb used nigger. Offensive to a different group maybe but is it any better really? I have personally never used the n-word like that but I have used "gay" in the same fasion and I think im not alone in that. I have the feeling most of the people that was so upset about this all have aswell. So maybe we as players should try to learn from this ourselfs and not just condem someone and thinking we are perfect?
On March 15 2012 09:56 hunts wrote:And what context are we supposed to think it's being used in when it's being used as an insult?
Think of someone that does not live up to social and ethical norms, behold:
Patti Smith - Rock'n'Roll nigger
Baby was a black sheep. Baby was a whore. You know she got big. Well, she's gonna get bigger. Baby got a hand; got a finger on the trigger. Baby, baby, baby is a rock-and-roll nigger.
Outside of society, that's where I want to be. Outside of society, they're waitin' for me.
(those who have suffered, understand suffering, and thereby extend their hand the storm that brings harm also makes fertile blessed is the grass and herb and the true thorn and light)
I was lost in a valley of pleasure. I was lost in the infinite sea. I was lost, and measure for measure, love spewed from the heart of me. I was lost, and the cost, and the cost didn't matter to me. I was lost, and the cost was to be outside society.
Jimi Hendrix was a nigger. Jesus Christ and Grandma, too. Jackson Pollock was a nigger. Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger.
Now tell me, is Patti Smith a racist? Well, she's white and it seems she kinda likes the n-word.
Baby was a black sheep. Baby was a whore. You know she got big. Well, she's gonna get bigger. Baby got a hand; got a finger on the trigger. Baby, baby, baby is a rock-and-roll nigger.
Outside of society, that's where I want to be. Outside of society, they're waitin' for me.
(those who have suffered, understand suffering, and thereby extend their hand the storm that brings harm also makes fertile blessed is the grass and herb and the true thorn and light)
I was lost in a valley of pleasure. I was lost in the infinite sea. I was lost, and measure for measure, love spewed from the heart of me. I was lost, and the cost, and the cost didn't matter to me. I was lost, and the cost was to be outside society.
Jimi Hendrix was a nigger. Jesus Christ and Grandma, too. Jackson Pollock was a nigger. Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger.
Now tell me, is Patti Smith a racist? Well, she's white and it seems she kinda likes the n-word.
I guess the argument would be that she was using the word artistically/poetically rather than as an insult. It would be interesting to know what the NAACP think of it though.
EPT
