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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 12:40 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:36 corpuscle wrote:On March 10 2012 12:32 Soma Cruz wrote:
wat
He was playing against one guy and said nigger risk or whatever. How is he insulting other people?
It'd be no different if he said he took a fucking moron (which is an old slur referring to handicapped people, so it's really bad) risk or whatever. I run up ramps against sentries all the time, and I thought it was because I'm not that good and exploit the fact that my MMR means that my opponents also probably aren't that good either, but I guess it's just because I'm black and we do things like that because we're stupid and incapable of properly scouting and assessing the situation in a game as complicated and nuanced as Starcraft 2 seriously, if you can't see why calling a poorly thought-out play a "dumb nigger risk" would be offensive to a black person, I really don't know what to tell you .... He obviously didn't use the word to mean black people. He used it to mean something like moron or stupid. Moron is an old slur for handicapped people, which has changed. Why can't nigger change? http://teevox.com/#!/c=streams&ch=1&s0=38490Destiny and Kyle are talking about this stuff right now. Do you get offended when someone calls people a Grammar Nazi on a forum? Being called a Nazi is pretty awful. They killed tons of people.
n*****r cant ever change, you're obviously not offended by its usage but others clearly are. just stop using it. is that so hard? why fight for rights of word usage when it obviously offends people as it is a word used with hate. especially for using it inappropriately out of context, whats the point?
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On March 10 2012 12:44 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:34 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 12:07 Defacer wrote:On March 10 2012 11:48 Soma Cruz wrote:
Wishing death is much worse than nigger. Saying nigger isn't the worst thing in the world.
Sorry. This again is where insular gaming nerds demonstrate a complete disconnect/obliviousness to the real world. 'Wishing death' is not worse the using the word nigger in a derogatory way. Just because you say so doesn't mean the rest of society agrees will you, no matter how well you argue otherwise. Perhaps one day, we woke up in the morning wondering "what the hell should we hate? that's it - nigger is an unbelievably offensive word". Oh we don't talk about that, that's dark history. Meanwhile the few descendants of the Aztecs that we ALLOWED to live, well they're tucked away from "us". They didn't have the means to get us to hate racism against them. So instead of being outraged about that, we're just passive about it. Hypocrites. A fucking word spawned 150 pages. A word. It's sick. Wut? Don't understand what you're saying here, the grammar is too sloppy.
How about you learn how to read? His grammar is fine, maybe english isn't your first language so you're having trouble understanding what he said. If that's the case don't pawn it off as his problem.
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On March 10 2012 12:48 Tossim111 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:40 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 12:36 corpuscle wrote:On March 10 2012 12:32 Soma Cruz wrote:
wat
He was playing against one guy and said nigger risk or whatever. How is he insulting other people?
It'd be no different if he said he took a fucking moron (which is an old slur referring to handicapped people, so it's really bad) risk or whatever. I run up ramps against sentries all the time, and I thought it was because I'm not that good and exploit the fact that my MMR means that my opponents also probably aren't that good either, but I guess it's just because I'm black and we do things like that because we're stupid and incapable of properly scouting and assessing the situation in a game as complicated and nuanced as Starcraft 2 seriously, if you can't see why calling a poorly thought-out play a "dumb nigger risk" would be offensive to a black person, I really don't know what to tell you .... He obviously didn't use the word to mean black people. He used it to mean something like moron or stupid. Moron is an old slur for handicapped people, which has changed. Why can't nigger change? http://teevox.com/#!/c=streams&ch=1&s0=38490Destiny and Kyle are talking about this stuff right now. Do you get offended when someone calls people a Grammar Nazi on a forum? Being called a Nazi is pretty awful. They killed tons of people. n*****r cant ever change, you're obviously not offended by its usage but others clearly are. just stop using it. is that so hard? why fight for rights of word usage when it obviously offends people as it is a word used with hate. especially for using it inappropriately out of context, whats the point?
Why the fuck can't nigger change? It should change. It'll be one step in the right direction, then we'll know less people think about racism are aren't fixated by it anymore.
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On March 10 2012 12:40 Soma Cruz wrote:
....
He obviously didn't use the word to mean black people. He used it to mean something like moron or stupid.
I know he didn't mean to denigrate black people but he did anyway. If I called you a "fucking retard" and claimed that I meant that you're actually smart and I think the developmentally disabled are awesome and you should take it as a compliment, would that change the fact that it's an insult no matter my intentions?
Also, using a term that has historically been used exclusively to refer to black people and black people only interchangeably with "moron" or "stupid" really only makes it worse in my eyes
Moron is an old slur for handicapped people, which has changed. Why can't nigger change?
Because this is 2012 and it's universally accepted among polite society that the n-word is something that should never be used. It has, by the way, already been co-opted and made a semi-acceptable term by black culture, which is why you probably hear "nigga" every day.
http://teevox.com/#!/c=streams&ch=1&s0=38490
Destiny and Kyle are talking about this stuff right now.
Sorry, but I really don't care to hear Destiny's opinion on this. I already know what he thinks, and I don't respect him enough to give half a shit about any unoriginal "insight" he has on the subject.
Do you get offended when someone calls people a Grammar Nazi on a forum? Being called a Nazi is pretty awful. They killed tons of people.
I don't think that's an appropriate term for someone who corrects grammar, no, but "Nazi" isn't as charged of a word, either.
edit:
Why the fuck can't nigger change? It should change. It'll be one step in the right direction, then we'll know less people think about racism.
So should we just sweep our history of racism under the rug? If anything, the n-word should stay alive in its current meaning, since it's such an effective aggregation of centuries of hate and oppression all rolled into two syllables. It's beautiful in a sick way, to be honest.
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wow i can't believe a person(s) contacted EG's sponsers. I can understand letting members of EG know, but to go as far as to contact sponsers about the issue is just as or even more immature than what orb did. That is not you're responsibility to go out of your way to to potentially ruin EG as a whole. This person or peoples need to be punished in my opinion. Trying to sabatoge (i say sabatoge because obviously whom ever contacted sponers was trying to get the sponsers to drop EG) EG over some nerd rage on the ladder is completely unacceptable and who ever this vigilante is needs to be punished in some type of way or form.
ps. im sorry if i said anything that is incorrect or that has already been stated in previous posts, but in my defense i do not have time to read over 150 pages of posts. Im basing my opinion on what i red when i skimmed through the orginal post.
---- my 2 cents, have a nice day!
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"Polite society". Hah, that's kind of a funny way to put it, given that being polite and having good manners requires a large part of acting talent.
How are you? Good. Yourself. Good too.
Smile even though you're tired or you feel sad.
Use specific words when talking to older people.
Don't ever act like yourself around your boss or your girlfriend's straight-arrow parents.
We'll be better off when all that bullshit will be behind us.
It has been accepted that the word "nigger" is ALWAYS bad, by a society of extremely talented liars, who hide a vast majority of their personality most of the time. That's just great, I want to be part of this.
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On March 10 2012 12:51 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:48 Tossim111 wrote:On March 10 2012 12:40 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 12:36 corpuscle wrote:On March 10 2012 12:32 Soma Cruz wrote:
wat
He was playing against one guy and said nigger risk or whatever. How is he insulting other people?
It'd be no different if he said he took a fucking moron (which is an old slur referring to handicapped people, so it's really bad) risk or whatever. I run up ramps against sentries all the time, and I thought it was because I'm not that good and exploit the fact that my MMR means that my opponents also probably aren't that good either, but I guess it's just because I'm black and we do things like that because we're stupid and incapable of properly scouting and assessing the situation in a game as complicated and nuanced as Starcraft 2 seriously, if you can't see why calling a poorly thought-out play a "dumb nigger risk" would be offensive to a black person, I really don't know what to tell you .... He obviously didn't use the word to mean black people. He used it to mean something like moron or stupid. Moron is an old slur for handicapped people, which has changed. Why can't nigger change? http://teevox.com/#!/c=streams&ch=1&s0=38490Destiny and Kyle are talking about this stuff right now. Do you get offended when someone calls people a Grammar Nazi on a forum? Being called a Nazi is pretty awful. They killed tons of people. n*****r cant ever change, you're obviously not offended by its usage but others clearly are. just stop using it. is that so hard? why fight for rights of word usage when it obviously offends people as it is a word used with hate. especially for using it inappropriately out of context, whats the point? Why the fuck can't nigger change? It should change. It'll be one step in the right direction, then we'll know less people think about racism are aren't fixated by it anymore.
because the amount of history with the word, to change it would be ignorant to what has actually happened in the past. you dont just forget about the past. n****r should never be used in everyday speech.
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On March 10 2012 12:57 Djzapz wrote:
"Polite society". Hah, that's kind of a funny way to put it, given that being polite and having good manners requires a large part of acting talent.
How are you? Good. Yourself. Good too.
Smile even though you're tired or you feel sad.
Use specific words against older people.
Don't ever act like yourself around your boss or your girlfriend's straight-arrow parents.
We'll be better off when all that bullshit will be behind us.
yes the world would be much better off if we could say and do whatever the fuck we want with no regard for other people's sensibilities, feelings, or background
edit: in case it wasn't clear: HEAVY SARCASM. that's like, borderline sociopathic.
"polite society" is my term for "society that normal people live in where we don't misanthropically upset other people for flimsy selfish reasons because we give half a shit about how other people feel"
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On March 10 2012 12:52 corpuscle wrote:
So should we just sweep our history of racism under the rug? If anything, the n-word should stay alive in its current meaning, since it's such an effective aggregation of centuries of hate and oppression all rolled into two syllables. It's beautiful in a sick way, to be honest.
This is true, it's the same thing with rape victims. The one thing we must do is make sure everybody is always reminded that rape has been committed. The last thing society should attempt to do is move past things.
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On March 10 2012 12:52 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:40 Soma Cruz wrote:
....
He obviously didn't use the word to mean black people. He used it to mean something like moron or stupid. I know he didn't mean to denigrate black people but he did anyway. If I called you a "fucking retard" and claimed that I meant that you're actually smart and I think the developmentally disabled are awesome and you should take it as a compliment, would that change the fact that it's an insult no matter my intentions? Also, using a term that has historically been used exclusively to refer to black people and black people only interchangeably with "moron" or "stupid" really only makes it worse in my eyes Show nested quote +Moron is an old slur for handicapped people, which has changed. Why can't nigger change? Because this is 2012 and it's universally accepted among polite society that the n-word is something that should never be used. It has, by the way, already been co-opted and made a semi-acceptable term by black culture, which is why you probably hear "nigga" every day. Show nested quote +http://teevox.com/#!/c=streams&ch=1&s0=38490
Destiny and Kyle are talking about this stuff right now. Sorry, but I really don't care to hear Destiny's opinion on this. I already know what he thinks, and I don't respect him enough to give half a shit about any unoriginal "insight" he has on the subject. Show nested quote +Do you get offended when someone calls people a Grammar Nazi on a forum? Being called a Nazi is pretty awful. They killed tons of people. I don't think that's an appropriate term for someone who corrects grammar, no, but "Nazi" isn't as charged of a word, either.
First off, saying n word is just a way to get away with saying nigger with a good conscience (http://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw)
I would take it as a compliment, because that's what you actually meant. If in 100 years, retard means super smart guy, that's okay with me.
What is wrong with his insight, which is rather similar to CatZ in his popular video at the moment? You guys aren't helping racism by getting offended over someone saying a word. You think people who are affected by actual racism give any shits about what some kid on the internet says? Most likely, no.
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On March 10 2012 12:58 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:57 Djzapz wrote:
"Polite society". Hah, that's kind of a funny way to put it, given that being polite and having good manners requires a large part of acting talent.
How are you? Good. Yourself. Good too.
Smile even though you're tired or you feel sad.
Use specific words against older people.
Don't ever act like yourself around your boss or your girlfriend's straight-arrow parents.
We'll be better off when all that bullshit will be behind us. yes the world would be much better off if we could say and do whatever the fuck we want with no regard for other people's sensibilities, feelings, or background
We CONSISTENTLY do whatever the fuck we want with no regard for other people's sensibilities, are you kidding me? People take offense to what we say, what we do, how we think. All the time. The word "nigger" only happens to be at the top of the list of things people get offended about because it was artificially put there.
You eat meat? You offend vegetarians and vegans.
You drive a car? You offend people who are particularly annoyed with polution.
Coal power plant? "Think of the air we breathe"
Nuclear power plant? "Think of the long term pollution"
Dam? "Think about the ecosystems"
Religious? So you're telling me that I'm going to HELL and that since I'm not religious I'm a bad person?
The word "rape" in gaming. That's a forbidden word, some people have been raped.
People sensitivities are bullshit. If I directly insult you, be insulted. If I use a word, calm down, you'll be ok.
Oh a last one:
The word "kill" in gaming. Someone somewhere flinches every time she hears it because her dad just died in Iraq.
People will get offended. That's life.
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On March 10 2012 12:54 EM1 wrote:
wow i can't believe a person(s) contacted EG's sponsers. I can understand letting members of EG know, but to go as far as to contact sponsers about the issue is just as or even more immature than what orb did. That is not you're responsibility to go out of your way to to potentially ruin EG as a whole. This person or peoples need to be punished in my opinion. Trying to sabatoge (i say sabatoge because obviously whom ever contacted sponers was trying to get the sponsers to drop EG) EG over some nerd rage on the ladder is completely unacceptable and who ever this vigilante is needs to be punished in some type of way or form.
ps. im sorry if i said anything that is incorrect or that has already been stated in previous posts, but in my defense i do not have time to read over 150 pages of posts. Im basing my opinion on what i red when i skimmed through the orginal post.
---- my 2 cents, have a nice day!
What a strange attitude. EG of all the teams are probably most active about promoting people to contact sponsors and letting them know how they feel.
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Since when did all these TL posters grow black skin? I mean if you're offended by nigger, you're probably offended by some1 who is african-american who feels offended about his parents while the parents feel offended by their ancestor's history with white oppressors.
Just like religious nuts who get offended when their prophet is shown. You grow a fucking shield for that stuff and it's the fucking internet. come on geez
Rationality, even here it's hard to find.
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On March 10 2012 12:59 Soma Cruz wrote:
First off, saying n word is just a way to get away with saying nigger with a good conscience (http://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw)
I don't give two shits about my conscience, I'm doing my best not to pepper this conversation with n-bombs since it's a genuinely offensive term and it doesn't hurt me in any way to type/say "n-word" instead of using a word that some people find difficult to read
What is wrong with his insight, which is rather similar to CatZ in his popular video at the moment? You guys aren't helping racism by getting offended over someone saying a word. You think people who are affected by actual racism give any shits about what some kid on the internet says? Most likely, no.
I'm not trying to "help racism," I'm trying to prevent or at the very least dissuade public figures in the community from using terminology that is derogatory as well as being completely unnecessary
me thinking that posting on teamliquid somehow will do anything to stop racism would be just as stupid as you thinking that orb and everyone else on the internet calling random people a "dumb nigger" is somehow going to turn the word into something that people won't be offended by
..oh, wait.
Since when did all these TL posters grow black skin? I mean if you're offended by nigger, you're probably offended by some1 who is african-american who feels offended about his parents while the parents feel offended by their ancestor's history with white oppressors.
I was born with it, nigga (see what I did there)
anyway I'm offended by it because here in america-land we had this thing called racism where black people were treated like sub-humans for about 400 years, and were referred to as "niggers" as a way of dehumanizing them
when people bring up that history by using the n-word it implies that they wish that we were back in the time period where black people were still "niggers" that could be treated as chattel and/or brutally murdered for no reason
and before you say "BUT IT'S 2012!" no, go to the south, you will see about 10 confederate flags in 10 minutes, there are huge numbers of people who still very much do not think of black people as their equals, and the usage of that word is a constant reminder of the fact that a large portion of the country you call home does not think of you as their equal because of the color of your skin.
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On March 10 2012 13:03 Damrak wrote:
Since when did all these TL posters grow black skin? I mean if you're offended by nigger, you're probably offended by some1 who is african-american who feels offended about his parents while the parents feel offended by their ancestor's history with white oppressors.
Just like religious nuts who get offended when their prophet is shown. You grow a fucking shield for that stuff and it's the fucking internet. come on geez
Rationality, even here it's hard to find.
How do you expect the community to be taken seriously with that type of attitude. Companies are pouring money (that they don't need to) into E-sports and this is hindering our ability to grow as a community and game.
You have to outgrow this narrow minded way of thinking and accept people do stupid things and should learn from them, which I am sure Orb has.
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On March 10 2012 12:52 corpuscle wrote:
I know he didn't mean to denigrate black people but he did anyway. If I called you a "fucking retard" and claimed that I meant that you're actually smart and I think the developmentally disabled are awesome and you should take it as a compliment, would that change the fact that it's an insult no matter my intentions?
A statement referenced as contextually insulting, is just that. Nothing more, nothing less, no matter what words or phrase is uttered.
The worst part about this whole fiasco, is that the people voicing their distaste over words are probably not even black. They're a ton of probabilistically white, pompous, overzealous people that feel good when they can "take a stand" for something that's not about them at all. They're only interested in looking "good" or morally absolved to the general public. Really sad.
On March 10 2012 12:52 corpuscle wrote:
Sorry, but I really don't care to hear Destiny's opinion on this. I already know what he thinks, and I don't respect him enough to give half a shit about any unoriginal "insight" he has on the subject.
Fallacy.
On March 10 2012 12:52 corpuscle wrote:
So should we just sweep our history of racism under the rug?
What does that have to do with anything? Choosing to not be offended by something that doesn't actually affect you doesn't mean you're ignoring history. I would hope that usage of those words would entice people to actually learn about history, and realize how much changes.
If people realized how much words (whether insulting or not) have changed over the centuries, they'd probably see that they're being irrational and illogical in cherry picking issues to make themselves feel and/or look better.
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It is Evil Genius's decision, and though I do not agree with DISMISSING him from the team (it was a bad action indeed), I would have given him a second chance. I never thought of Orb to be a top progamer regardless, but he is still good nonetheless. Hope he changes and improves as time goes on.
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Only on TL can this sort of trivial rubbish be debated over 150 pages. I'm surprised if more than 5% of the people who posted here are actually offended by the content and aren't hypocrites themselves when it comes to this. Most likely you have nothing better to do.
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Dismissing him is a little extreme. It seems to me like Alex's own educational background is skewing his perspective of how bad this whole situation really is.
I doubt anyone reasonable could honestly be offended by something as small as an impersonal insult anyway. It's just an expectation which is set by yourself and others. Things are changing though, and one day people will start worrying about things that actually matter. For now, let's all freak out because somebody said 'nigger'.
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On March 10 2012 12:48 Tossim111 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:40 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 12:36 corpuscle wrote:On March 10 2012 12:32 Soma Cruz wrote:
wat
He was playing against one guy and said nigger risk or whatever. How is he insulting other people?
It'd be no different if he said he took a fucking moron (which is an old slur referring to handicapped people, so it's really bad) risk or whatever. I run up ramps against sentries all the time, and I thought it was because I'm not that good and exploit the fact that my MMR means that my opponents also probably aren't that good either, but I guess it's just because I'm black and we do things like that because we're stupid and incapable of properly scouting and assessing the situation in a game as complicated and nuanced as Starcraft 2 seriously, if you can't see why calling a poorly thought-out play a "dumb nigger risk" would be offensive to a black person, I really don't know what to tell you .... He obviously didn't use the word to mean black people. He used it to mean something like moron or stupid. Moron is an old slur for handicapped people, which has changed. Why can't nigger change? http://teevox.com/#!/c=streams&ch=1&s0=38490Destiny and Kyle are talking about this stuff right now. Do you get offended when someone calls people a Grammar Nazi on a forum? Being called a Nazi is pretty awful. They killed tons of people. n*****r cant ever change, you're obviously not offended by its usage but others clearly are. just stop using it. is that so hard? why fight for rights of word usage when it obviously offends people as it is a word used with hate. especially for using it inappropriately out of context, whats the point?
I think this censoring stuff is really silly as is calling it the n-word, "nigger" is the word and you definitely should be able to type it.
In my opinion the fact that it's considered so taboo is a reason why it is so powerful. Because it's only used extremely rarely, when it actually is used people consider that person to really mean something bad with it because otherwise he would never dare to use it or something like that.
A comparison I'd like to draw is a rather common "fag" or "faggot". This is a derogatory word against homosexuals, however it's so commonly used it often doesn't even have anything to do with homosexuality. I believe that yelling "Faggot!" at a homosexual person because you hate the fact they're homosexual is still completely unacceptable, however calling a random person one as an insult doesn't even have anything to do with homosexuality and at least the couple of homosexual people I know don't get offended at all if they see a random person call another random person a faggot.
So yeah I think it'd be better if the word "nigger" wasn't as taboo as it is now and that way it'd probably start to lose some of the power it has, a good comparison being the word "faggot" which barely even is used as a hateword against homosexuals anymore and is basically used in place of "asshole" or "idiot".
Oh and I guess I'll also add that obviously the black people I personally know will be insulted if you go up to them and call them "nigger", however they couldn't care less if a random person called another random person one especially in a situation where it has nothing to do with their race
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