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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038 Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST | ||
Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:47 CeriseCherries wrote: -_- try saying n----- in any respectable workplace and see if it doesn't get you fired While we're making up analogies that don't fit, try hammering a banana with a wrench and see if it fixes your turbocharger. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:46 shuurai wrote: The PC inquisition coming down on someone for saying a "forbidden word" when he was 8 years old? It would be ridiculous if it wasn't so dystopian. Hahaha, this post makes me imagine some Redditors hacking into orb's computer and searching a bunch of old grade 2 crayon drawings he made of a dark figure with the big word NIGGER under it | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "American"  (That's what I've heard, anyway.) The best term to hurt a white person is "racist" You call a white person a racist, it's a big deal. | ||
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Low-Enthalpy
Canada18 Posts
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Maverick32x
United States311 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:49 Djzapz wrote: Well what can I say, I disagree. I trivialize homosexuality by making light of the whole situation. The idea that the usage of the word by itself has negative consequences seems like a shoddy assumption to me. I think it's you who is narrow minded, and that's why you choose to ban a word rather than understand it, and mock it, or use it recklessly. If people choose to be offended by the usage of the word, they should grow up. But no I don't think I contribute to a hateful discourse which I thoroughly dislike. And will I argue against every time I come across said discourse - and I'll continue to call my friends faggots in good faith, mostly in closed circles. Why don't you just say it to everyone? If you're so open-minded about it.... Have you ever considered how your behavior effects other people? Maybe people that aren't your friends? Or maybe your friends truly could be gay, but your hateful language makes them fearful of coming out to you? | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:49 Djzapz wrote: Well what can I say, I disagree. I trivialize homosexuality by making light of the whole situation. The idea that the usage of the word by itself has negative consequences seems like a shoddy assumption to me. I think it's you who is narrow minded, and that's why you choose to ban a word rather than understand it, and mock it, or use it recklessly, like the joke it can become. If people choose to be offended by the usage of the word, they should grow up. But no I don't think I contribute to a hateful discourse which I thoroughly dislike. And will I argue against every time I come across said discourse - and I'll continue to call my friends faggots in good faith, mostly in closed circles. If you are not a homosexual, it is not your place to trivialize it. Get over yourself. You are part of the problem, not the solution. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:36 plogamer wrote: Again, by what rule - written or unwritten - do we go to the boss and not the boss' boss? The one which states that the direct boss of the person is responsible for resolving problems of his employees, and if that boss does not provide an adequate solution than that boss' boss is responsible for resolving that? Honestly dude, do you write letters to the FCC whenever there's a mistake on your phone bill? | ||
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Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:52 bonifaceviii wrote: The one which states that the direct boss of the person is responsible for resolving problems of his employees, and if that boss does not provide an adequate solution than that boss' boss is responsible for resolving that? Honestly dude, do you write letters to the FCC whenever there's a mistake on your phone bill? I believe that rule is called "common sense". | ||
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Aren't all people technically Africans (on an evolutionary scale), therefore making all black people Africans? Or are you distinguishing between modern dark-colored humans? Well, to go even further: We all decend from one-cell beings (being apes somewhere in between). Now you sit in a trap: You depicted people from africa a part of our evolution. What did you want to say? Are black people an outdated model? You better not start a career as a caster my friend! | ||
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Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:46 Chill wrote: SC community out for blood. Who do you think the next target will be? I'd guess people get Moletrap fired next. Lol, this community is its own worst enemy. And while were at it, im going to guess that Idra is next along with incontrol | ||
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BradenKuntz
Canada59 Posts
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Pisko.
United States214 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Aren't all people technically Africans (on an evolutionary scale), therefore making all black people Africans? Or are you distinguishing between modern dark-colored humans? Modern. My friend is Jamaican and clearly has a Jamaican accent, people try to be super PC and call him african american and I always laugh. Same with some black dudes from Europe I know, that's always the funniest. | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:42 plogamer wrote: Now here's a twisted logic at its finest. I guess laws against murder is also there to strike the fear of murder and promote subservience from the populace. Of course any law requires subservience from the people in which it is dictated upon. If you find it hard to believe somethings I have said you read some books on Plato, fascinating reads for anyone who has a brain. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
Maybe he is trolling me? Or maybe he hasn't had a normal job? | ||
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alpinefpOPP
United States134 Posts
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kevinthemighty
United States134 Posts
The first of orb's crimes wasn't the actual use of those words, but the context in which he used them. Sure, you can use the n-word and not be racist, but to use it as a tool to thoroughly demean/emasculate someone is absolutely deplorable. In other words, you're not a racist, but your subconscious intent is no better than those who used it in the past and WERE racist: to debase another in order to elevate yourself. And I'm not even specifically addressing orb, but everyone out there who feels the need to incessantly and aggressively bm people on ladder. Sure, it's easy to get caught up in the adrenaline rush of the game and to get angry at an "undeserving loss"—whatever that means. But to think that excuses you for your actions and your words because "everyone does it, or has done it, or will do it" is ridiculous. So many people here on TL talk about expanding the community, and doing what is good for e-Sports. How does bullying/demeaning/debasing another player after you lose contribute to the game? Does it really motivate them to keep playing? Does it really grow the community? No. And to think for a second that it's okay because we're not as bad as other communities is simply turning a blind-eye to how bad things truly are at home. Which leads me to the second problem. As a caster, and a representative of EG in that role, that's exactly what orb's role is! And while it may not specifically say in his contract or job description "Your job is to grow e-Sports," it is simply implied in the position. They hire you to cast, and ultimately you cast to entertain the audience and draw more people to the scene. If the hope wasn't to draw more people to SC2 so that more people support the sponsors of EG, then EG wouldn't be in the business! It's as simple as that. And orb's actions were counter-productive to that goal, regardless of when he said it. Alex stated it himself: "...if we'd ever known that Orb had used such language in the past, or was prone to using such language, we wouldn't have contracted him in the first place." So to think that it's somehow a MORAL TRAVESTY that EG would release orb for something that he did before he was officially hired by them is foolish. Had this come out previously with no apologies made, he never would have been hired in the first place. Lastly, since the discussion has inevitably turned to "offending people" and "racism," etc., NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO BE OFFENDED EXCEPT THE PERSON ORB'S COMMENTS WERE DIRECTED TOWARD. That's right, no one. Orb's weren't directed towards you, or anyone else of a particular race, sex, group, or community. And like I said in the beginning, the actual words used shouldn't be the problem, but the context in which they are used. He's obviously not attacking every black person in the world by using the n-word, nor does a person who uses f------t intend on addressing every homosexual. The only person who should be offended is the person/people orb foolishly attacked. So what should our proper response be? Disgust. We should be disgusted not just by the way the words were used, but the malicious intent behind them. It is the pathetic goading and "internet-tough guy" attitude as you hide behind an computer monitor that makes me sick. Would orb have said those things to the guy's face if he looked like Brock Lesnar? Of course not. Because there would be serious repercussions. Frankly it's sad how many people are saying that the people who are offended should grow up, when in fact, it's the kids who only have internet-balls are the ones in desperate need of maturity. It's frightening how severely your perspective can be skewed. However, this post would not be complete if I didn't admit that everyone is guilty of having the same malicious thoughts and intent at one point or another. I, personally, have never expressed it online, but some have, and I don't think it's an unforgivable crime. But it's not my crime to forgive, just as I should not be the one offended. At some point orb deserves a second chance; I just hope we can all get over our disgust. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Where there is no place for people who might be offensive to some of the potential customers. Let this be a warning for all bm trolling casters left. for the record: i think eg did the right thing Still there seems to be a trend lately at getting at casters who are a bit less then mainstream. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:50 Maverick32x wrote: Why don't you just say it to everyone? If you're so open-minded about it.... Have you ever considered how your behavior effects other people? Maybe people that aren't your friends? Or maybe your friends truly could be gay, but your hateful language makes them fearful of coming out to you? My friends know how reasonable I am, my gay friends have already "come out" and if other ones haven't, it certainly isn't because of me - they know I've been incredibly supportive to equal rights for homosexuals, black people, women, etc. I'll oftentimes bring up news article and discuss how pissed off about how minorities are being treated. And my behavior doesn't affect*** other people negatively. And the reason why I don't casually use these words is that I rarely need to. It's not very "classy" to use generic insults. | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:50 Low-Enthalpy wrote: I am really sad that people in the community grabbed their pitchforks and mobbed towards the sponsors, and that something like this had to happen. Regardless of whether he deserved it, we don't have enough quality casters to be making examples of them. Those members of the community really hurt esports by forcing this issue and by detering sponsors. Actually, the more I think about this, the more I realize it's a good thing the community was so quick to stomp this out. I image there were a few vindictive people who just wanted to see how far they could take it, but as a whole, I think most people were looking to keep eSports as clean as possible. Consider the opposite: How disturbing would it be for sponsors if no one cared he said "nigger"? That would be a pretty bad stain on our reputation as a community. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:43 Magic_Mike wrote: To punish one person who works for you based off of the things that were said before he worked for you that include a term many would find offensive seems like it would make sense. However, by not acknowleding that these other terms are just as offensive and can cause just as much pain by taking no actions (or really small by comparison) of the employees who use them is even more insulting than them using them in the first place. It feels like you are supporting the use of terms that shouldn't be used all all while punishing those that you "personally" don't like. Just because you have a soft spot or some "inside" knowledge on the term nigger or otherwise makes no difference on the simple concepts of fairness. If you want to punish someone for using slanderous terms, you can't pick and choose. It makes you look like a hypocrite. And I fucking hate hypocrites. Are you saying it's ok to do one but no the other? It's ok to use the term retard but not nigger? If so EG as an organization disgusts me and is no better than the people who beat on us as kids or the people who did the same to blacks just because of the color of their skin. Pretending that you can live your entire life without compromising your principles and beliefs, or changing them, is immature Ignoring or throwing away your principles just for the sake of fairness -- or in your example, being equally unfair to all people -- is ridiculous. Alex's decision to take a stand on this issue is his business, and his perogative. It seems like you equate, or even hate, hypocrisy more than slander and discrimination. To be honest, this makes me feel sorry for you. Because if you have any ambition at all, it's next to impossible not to make mistakes, or be consistent in your judgement. You're bound to hate yourself. This is a weird analogy, but it's like the way the GOP is trying to double-down by pushing for war in Iran, after the Iraq war was a complete clusterfuck that cost the US trillions. All for the sake of what? Not being 'hypocritical'? | ||
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