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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 05:11 Klondikebar wrote:
Ok. That's fine. But it irks me to no end when heterosexuals claim to "trivialize" the abuse I've had to endure as a gay man like they're fighting some righteous battle for me. I will trivialize it if that's how I want to deal with it. Everyone else better take it seriously.
Oh I agree with you. I'm on your side of this argument (as evidenced by all my posts in this thread).
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On March 10 2012 05:06 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:29 plogamer wrote:On March 10 2012 04:16 Thrombozyt wrote:
Honestly.. this case makes me dislike EG hard core. You sacrifice an employee for shit he has done in the past that might offend some thin skinned PC-fanatics (PC in this case = political correctness).
It nearly makes me go through all media presence of Idra and all other EG guys checking if they have used similar language - EVER.
Things like that make me angry. People acting on words and not on meaning. But words are there to confer meaning and therefore it should be acted upon the meaning and not the wording. Nigger (there - I said it - I'm SUCH a bad person) really is an incredibly weak insult anyhow. Either you are black, then you are part of the African-American population which are in a derogatory fashion called Niggers, or you are not - in which case it's just nonsense. So even if the person called a Nigger is black, it just says that the speaker has prejudice.
What is the difference between a Nigger and an African-American? Objectively there isn't one. The only difference is that the first word is preferred by prejudiced speakers to underline their conviction.
I'm a German. I'm called a Kraut by some random Brit (again.. Brit.. has been used in German WW2 propagande posters.. highly offensive) in the UK. Am I offended? Not really. I'm not happy, but mainly because I can imply that the speaker hasn't got a positive attitude towards me and probably Germans in general. But do I go bonkers and pull the 'OMG! I'm the victim of evil racism!'-card (TM)? Hell no. Because he makes himself look stupid by calling me German in a different way.
I realize, that using Nigger to offend someone white can be seen as an offense to all black people (wait.. black people.. am I allowed to type that?). Yes.. but comeon.. grow a pair. Do I jump and yell every time one person calls another one a Nazi, despite the second person clearly not being part of a fascist regime? Hell no. Words and meaning. The meaning is "I'm angry at you and I wanna express my anger and make you angry too". He could use ANY kind of insult.
So please EG, either fire EVERYONE who has repeatedly insulted ANYONE with choice swear words or stay cool and let the PC-sissies (again - PC is NOT personal computer here) whine and cry.
If you have to single out a single swear word as extra evil, pick 'retard' and 'retarded' because that is actually a really insulting assumption about the targets intelligence and also picking on a group of people that through bad luck (genes/birth defect) are terribly afflicted.
May you be blessed by perspective
Thrombozyt You say that words are there to confer meaning, and then criticize people for conferring meaning from Orb's choice of words. I think a lot of people are angry because this incident is challenging their perspective on racism. Rather than face it head-on, they give us twisted logic about 'meaning' or 'intention' and arguments about EG's hypocrisy (rather than demanding higher standards from EG's star players). Get used to it folks. Welcome to the mainstream. As you eloquontly put it, "grow a pair" yourself. People are intentionally conferring an absurd meaning (being: that Orb is a racist and evil evil person) to a situation that is clear cut from what I have heard: Orb raged on ladder and was hurling BM and insults at his opponent. When people start intentionally conferring the worst possible meaning from words, things go to hell really really fast. Especially when it's done to ONE guy in an organization while others that are arguably worse guys in the same organization. That reeks of discrimination and favoritism. The 'nigger is teh evilz' argument is bullshit, when you let 'faggot' and 'retarded' stand without equal action. Oh.. and about the mainstream: I have to work against this PC bullshit becoming mainstream. Being hysteric about words is ridiculous and I seriously try to get a regular common english word (lets say 'tomorrow') to be an extremely offensive word in the FSM church. Hell... THAT will be fun.
You agree that Orb used a word that is/was used in reference to black people when insulting and BM'ing his opponent. How can you not infer any kind of racism there?
Discrimination and favouritism is wrong. Using racial slur is as bad as 'faggot' and 'retarded', no one (except the most idiotic) is arguing otherwise.
Go ahead and try to stigmatize 'tomorrow'. As if you alone can reproduce the effects of generations upon generations of racism. Though you're doing a mighty fine job of perpetuating it.
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On March 10 2012 04:54 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 10 2012 04:45 Pisko. wrote:
I don't know what's more racist, the n word or people thinking all black people are africans. Aren't all people technically Africans (on an evolutionary scale), therefore making all black people Africans? Or are you distinguishing between modern dark-colored humans? Well, to go even further: We all decend from one-cell beings (being apes somewhere in between). Now you sit in a trap: You depicted people from africa a part of our evolution. What did you want to say? Are black people an outdated model? You better not start a career as a caster my friend!
LOL. Well played 
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Not gonna lie...black studies sounds like a joke major.
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Good job EG.
I kinda feel sorry for orb though, a few actions cost him his amazing opportunity.
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On March 10 2012 05:06 Thrombozyt wrote:
People are intentionally conferring an absurd meaning (being: that Orb is a racist and evil evil person) to a situation that is clear cut from what I have heard: Orb raged on ladder and was hurling BM and insults at his opponent.
NO ONE has claimed that Orb is racist and evil.
People have argued that Orb's behaviour was inflammatory, juvenile, offensive and crude to anyone outside of the gaming community, rage-induced etc.
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On March 10 2012 05:16 SnuggleZhenya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 05:11 Klondikebar wrote:
Ok. That's fine. But it irks me to no end when heterosexuals claim to "trivialize" the abuse I've had to endure as a gay man like they're fighting some righteous battle for me. I will trivialize it if that's how I want to deal with it. Everyone else better take it seriously. Oh I agree with you. I'm on your side of this argument (as evidenced by all my posts in this thread).
That would explain why my post got completely borked when I hit "Post." ♥
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On March 10 2012 05:17 KiNPiN wrote:
Not gonna lie...black studies sounds like a joke major.
Why is furthering one's knowledge of a subject they are interested in "a joke"?
Saying that, most of the comments in this thread seem somewhat deluded, no point on just singling out this one!
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On March 10 2012 05:01 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 10 2012 04:45 tofucake wrote:On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slursno slurs for white people? "American" (That's what I've heard, anyway.) Wtf..why is this not a ban? I have made this type of a joke about french people when I got a temp ban...
Err... perhaps I should have clarified: I'm a proud and patriotic American (although I recognize that there are negative stereotypes about us). There were also recent conversations on TL (different thread) about how Americans actually pretend to not be Americans when they travel (e.g. they pretend to be Canadian) so that they're treated better.
Sorry for any confusion ^^
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On March 10 2012 05:16 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 05:06 Thrombozyt wrote:On March 10 2012 04:29 plogamer wrote:On March 10 2012 04:16 Thrombozyt wrote:
Honestly.. this case makes me dislike EG hard core. You sacrifice an employee for shit he has done in the past that might offend some thin skinned PC-fanatics (PC in this case = political correctness).
It nearly makes me go through all media presence of Idra and all other EG guys checking if they have used similar language - EVER.
Things like that make me angry. People acting on words and not on meaning. But words are there to confer meaning and therefore it should be acted upon the meaning and not the wording. Nigger (there - I said it - I'm SUCH a bad person) really is an incredibly weak insult anyhow. Either you are black, then you are part of the African-American population which are in a derogatory fashion called Niggers, or you are not - in which case it's just nonsense. So even if the person called a Nigger is black, it just says that the speaker has prejudice.
What is the difference between a Nigger and an African-American? Objectively there isn't one. The only difference is that the first word is preferred by prejudiced speakers to underline their conviction.
I'm a German. I'm called a Kraut by some random Brit (again.. Brit.. has been used in German WW2 propagande posters.. highly offensive) in the UK. Am I offended? Not really. I'm not happy, but mainly because I can imply that the speaker hasn't got a positive attitude towards me and probably Germans in general. But do I go bonkers and pull the 'OMG! I'm the victim of evil racism!'-card (TM)? Hell no. Because he makes himself look stupid by calling me German in a different way.
I realize, that using Nigger to offend someone white can be seen as an offense to all black people (wait.. black people.. am I allowed to type that?). Yes.. but comeon.. grow a pair. Do I jump and yell every time one person calls another one a Nazi, despite the second person clearly not being part of a fascist regime? Hell no. Words and meaning. The meaning is "I'm angry at you and I wanna express my anger and make you angry too". He could use ANY kind of insult.
So please EG, either fire EVERYONE who has repeatedly insulted ANYONE with choice swear words or stay cool and let the PC-sissies (again - PC is NOT personal computer here) whine and cry.
If you have to single out a single swear word as extra evil, pick 'retard' and 'retarded' because that is actually a really insulting assumption about the targets intelligence and also picking on a group of people that through bad luck (genes/birth defect) are terribly afflicted.
May you be blessed by perspective
Thrombozyt You say that words are there to confer meaning, and then criticize people for conferring meaning from Orb's choice of words. I think a lot of people are angry because this incident is challenging their perspective on racism. Rather than face it head-on, they give us twisted logic about 'meaning' or 'intention' and arguments about EG's hypocrisy (rather than demanding higher standards from EG's star players). Get used to it folks. Welcome to the mainstream. As you eloquontly put it, "grow a pair" yourself. People are intentionally conferring an absurd meaning (being: that Orb is a racist and evil evil person) to a situation that is clear cut from what I have heard: Orb raged on ladder and was hurling BM and insults at his opponent. When people start intentionally conferring the worst possible meaning from words, things go to hell really really fast. Especially when it's done to ONE guy in an organization while others that are arguably worse guys in the same organization. That reeks of discrimination and favoritism. The 'nigger is teh evilz' argument is bullshit, when you let 'faggot' and 'retarded' stand without equal action. Oh.. and about the mainstream: I have to work against this PC bullshit becoming mainstream. Being hysteric about words is ridiculous and I seriously try to get a regular common english word (lets say 'tomorrow') to be an extremely offensive word in the FSM church. Hell... THAT will be fun. You agree that Orb used a word that is/was used in reference to black people when insulting and BM'ing his opponent. How can you not infer any kind of racism there? Discrimination and favouritism is wrong. Using racial slur is as bad as 'faggot' and 'retarded', no one (except the most idiotic) is arguing otherwise. Go ahead and try to stigmatize 'tomorrow'. As if you alone can reproduce the effects of generations upon generations of racism. Though you're doing a mighty fine job of perpetuating it.
In an earlier post you said you were "Proud" of EG and the e-sports community. But in light of what you are saying here (that "faggot and retarded" are as bad as "nigger"), I would like to know your position on IdrA being in EG. How can you support EG, when they have a guy who says these words in chat and in stream on a regular basis. You shouldn't rest easy till EG removes IdrA right? Who's next? HuK? InControl? Lets bring out the pitchforks and burn every one of these guys till no one is left standing.
Edit: Face it, the only reason EG fired -orb- is because he was expendable, and now they can go back home patting their backs on a job well done, having pandered to appease the mob mentality. But if it had been one of their high profile players, the most you would have gotten is a statement and an apology, and everyone would have been off on their own merry way.
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It's passing judgement on Orb and casting him in a bad light unnecessarily - I don't think either of these belong in a professional letter.
People come from many different places - they all have different strengths and unique qualities. In the end though really - there are just us humans.
When people pass judgement on others it is a manifestation of willful and/or oblivious ignorance.
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On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
[...]
I have never been prouder to call myself a member of the StarCraft community than I am at this moment.
[...]
It's the exact opposite for me. I have read everything in the other thread and the amount of people that are defending this kind of behavior saddens me and quite a few goes as far as stating that they are "ashamed of the community" for even bringing it up and of TL for letting it stay.
I guess it's what to be expected when the gaming majority are kids, and that will - unfortunately - never change (one can dream tho').
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Not gonna lie...black studies sounds like a joke major.
It is.
User was warned for this post
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On March 10 2012 05:11 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 05:01 plogamer wrote:On March 10 2012 04:53 Chill wrote:On March 10 2012 04:52 bonifaceviii wrote:On March 10 2012 04:36 plogamer wrote:
Again, by what rule - written or unwritten - do we go to the boss and not the boss' boss? The one which states that the direct boss of the person is responsible for resolving problems of his employees, and if that boss does not provide an adequate solution than that boss' boss is responsible for resolving that? Honestly dude, do you write letters to the FCC whenever there's a mistake on your phone bill? I believe that rule is called "common sense". Common sense is to take the most effective measure against your perceived problem. And the sponser (boss' boss) would have responded to the complaint by asking the people talk to the direct boss if they felt the same as you. Are we talking short term or long term? How many times will the sponsors accept this kind of reaction before they decide to shut it all down and pull out of the scene? So while using your definition of common sense I should burn my house down to solve a termite problem? It's the most effective measure to ensure they are 100% destroyed. So let's burn Starcraft down! Come on. Edit: The more I think about what you wrote, the more absurd it is. Line at the airport? Pull the fire alarm! Going to miss your exam? Call in a bomb threat! Common sense fighting!
Your definition of 'common-sense' doesn't fit for many here, nor does apparently it fit the sponsors' definition. Try complaining to a CEO about an employee, you will be ignored or maybe maybe directed to HR.
How do you support the notion that sponsors will pull out? E-sports isn't the first time the sponsors are dealing with controversy and PR. They've been doing it for a lot of other scenes and they continue to act as sponsors for many other events that have experienced controversies over the past.
And there's no need to get semantic about it. That's pretty low for an argument. It was 'effective', EG responded in accordance with the sponsor's concerns and dealt with the issue.
/edit for paragraph
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What a mess.. if everybody would get fired for dubious things one has done in the past probably nobody on this entire planet would stay in employment.
Title this "-orb- stabbed iNcontroL in his sleep, shoplifted family jewels" and the story makes sense. "-orb- placed letters in a particular order" not so much.
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doesnt matter if orb is a racist or not - he represented EG in a negative way so he was dismissed - not that big deal in my opinion - if he is that good in casting as some people in here says he will find another organisation, right?
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I'm sorry if certain words dont mean anything to you. The fact is that words do mean things and you have to actually think about what you say. I don't care if it doesn't mean that to you, but you live in a society that has given meaning to this word long before you or the current rap sensation started using it, you don't get to come along and redefine it. Think about what you say. Don't have empty words.
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On March 10 2012 05:24 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 05:16 plogamer wrote:On March 10 2012 05:06 Thrombozyt wrote:On March 10 2012 04:29 plogamer wrote:On March 10 2012 04:16 Thrombozyt wrote:
Honestly.. this case makes me dislike EG hard core. You sacrifice an employee for shit he has done in the past that might offend some thin skinned PC-fanatics (PC in this case = political correctness).
It nearly makes me go through all media presence of Idra and all other EG guys checking if they have used similar language - EVER.
Things like that make me angry. People acting on words and not on meaning. But words are there to confer meaning and therefore it should be acted upon the meaning and not the wording. Nigger (there - I said it - I'm SUCH a bad person) really is an incredibly weak insult anyhow. Either you are black, then you are part of the African-American population which are in a derogatory fashion called Niggers, or you are not - in which case it's just nonsense. So even if the person called a Nigger is black, it just says that the speaker has prejudice.
What is the difference between a Nigger and an African-American? Objectively there isn't one. The only difference is that the first word is preferred by prejudiced speakers to underline their conviction.
I'm a German. I'm called a Kraut by some random Brit (again.. Brit.. has been used in German WW2 propagande posters.. highly offensive) in the UK. Am I offended? Not really. I'm not happy, but mainly because I can imply that the speaker hasn't got a positive attitude towards me and probably Germans in general. But do I go bonkers and pull the 'OMG! I'm the victim of evil racism!'-card (TM)? Hell no. Because he makes himself look stupid by calling me German in a different way.
I realize, that using Nigger to offend someone white can be seen as an offense to all black people (wait.. black people.. am I allowed to type that?). Yes.. but comeon.. grow a pair. Do I jump and yell every time one person calls another one a Nazi, despite the second person clearly not being part of a fascist regime? Hell no. Words and meaning. The meaning is "I'm angry at you and I wanna express my anger and make you angry too". He could use ANY kind of insult.
So please EG, either fire EVERYONE who has repeatedly insulted ANYONE with choice swear words or stay cool and let the PC-sissies (again - PC is NOT personal computer here) whine and cry.
If you have to single out a single swear word as extra evil, pick 'retard' and 'retarded' because that is actually a really insulting assumption about the targets intelligence and also picking on a group of people that through bad luck (genes/birth defect) are terribly afflicted.
May you be blessed by perspective
Thrombozyt You say that words are there to confer meaning, and then criticize people for conferring meaning from Orb's choice of words. I think a lot of people are angry because this incident is challenging their perspective on racism. Rather than face it head-on, they give us twisted logic about 'meaning' or 'intention' and arguments about EG's hypocrisy (rather than demanding higher standards from EG's star players). Get used to it folks. Welcome to the mainstream. As you eloquontly put it, "grow a pair" yourself. People are intentionally conferring an absurd meaning (being: that Orb is a racist and evil evil person) to a situation that is clear cut from what I have heard: Orb raged on ladder and was hurling BM and insults at his opponent. When people start intentionally conferring the worst possible meaning from words, things go to hell really really fast. Especially when it's done to ONE guy in an organization while others that are arguably worse guys in the same organization. That reeks of discrimination and favoritism. The 'nigger is teh evilz' argument is bullshit, when you let 'faggot' and 'retarded' stand without equal action. Oh.. and about the mainstream: I have to work against this PC bullshit becoming mainstream. Being hysteric about words is ridiculous and I seriously try to get a regular common english word (lets say 'tomorrow') to be an extremely offensive word in the FSM church. Hell... THAT will be fun. You agree that Orb used a word that is/was used in reference to black people when insulting and BM'ing his opponent. How can you not infer any kind of racism there? Discrimination and favouritism is wrong. Using racial slur is as bad as 'faggot' and 'retarded', no one (except the most idiotic) is arguing otherwise. Go ahead and try to stigmatize 'tomorrow'. As if you alone can reproduce the effects of generations upon generations of racism. Though you're doing a mighty fine job of perpetuating it. In an earlier post you said you were "Proud" of EG and the e-sports community. But in light of what you are saying here (that "faggot and retarded" are as bad as "nigger"), I would like to know your position on IdrA being in EG. How can you support EG, when they have a guy who says these words in chat and in stream on a regular basis. You shouldn't rest easy till EG removes IdrA right? Who's next? HuK? InControl?
And my other posts talking about how I will continue to watch Orb's streams? That I will criticize Idra no less than Orb if I'm ever aware of unacceptable behaviour? I don't want to go through the same discussion with another person again. If you're going to mention my earlier posts, make sure to read through them for more context.
I am giving positive reinforcement for a positive behaviour from EG. So yes, I'm proud of them and e-sports for this particular action. I'm not so proud of Idra and Destiny, my displeasure*(spelling edit) with them is clear.
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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety.
Not trying to go off topic here, but how is the post verbose at all?
It is well written and has a very minimum amount of wordiness.
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On March 10 2012 05:28 biomech wrote:
What a mess.. if everybody would get fired for dubious things one has done in the past probably nobody on this entire planet would stay in employment.
Title this "-orb- stabbed iNcontroL in his sleep, shoplifted family jewels" and the story makes sense. "-orb- placed letters in a particular order that to some people appears highly offensive" not so much.
Again, I can not respect your opinion for so many reasons for not realizing that what he did is not okay. You can not have someone using that language representing you, and the fact that you honestly don't understand the seriousness of the term, the history behind it, and what it means to millions, tens of millions, of people is simply astounding.
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EPT
