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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 04:29 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:28 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 04:20 corpuscle wrote:On March 10 2012 04:16 Djzapz wrote:
The fact that using the "n-word" out of context in such a way that it has no intended racial implications shouldn't be equated to cocaine use at work. I guess it is, and I'm basically arguing that it shouldn't. Using the n-word as an insult has racial implications, intended or not. Not only is it offensive to black people just to use the word period, but when you call someone a "dumb n-word" it implies that being black is a negative quality. I don't think orb is a racist, and I don't think he intended any racism at any point, but what he did is still racist. You can do racist things without being a racist, I guess is my point. See I don't believe that. Racism is an emotion, a sentiment. You don't do racist things without being racist. If you think that you can, well the discussion stops there unless you can convince me, but what you did is a statement of belief. When I call my friend a "dumb faggot", the word "faggot" is nothing but an empty shell. If people decide that the word is homophobic, well I disagree. I acknowledge the meaning of the word "faggot", but what actually counts is the intention in what I'm saying. There is no racism or homophobia in my heart, and saying that there is is offensive to me, and a gross misunderstanding of human interaction. There is homophobia in your heart because you think being gay is an insult. Although if my words are just an empty shell, you can't be offended by me calling you a homophobe because this entire post is just an empty shell.
I don't think being gay is an insult, that's you saying that. When I call a friend a faggot, it's a friendly gesture - and when I call a stranger a faggot (that doesn't really happen) because I'm mad at them, it doesn't have any link to homosexuality. It's only a generic insult.
Don't tell me how I feel, you're an imbecile for thinking that you can dictate to me how I feel based on a word I use.
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On March 10 2012 04:25 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:21 Zocat wrote:While I agree with EG's reaction, this part of the post irritates me: On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice. Do you guys in America really have "BLACK studies" (it's called that way)? And dont think it's racist? I'd say African(-American) would be the pc term. Please feel free to correct me - just interested  Nah. Black is pretty much the accepted term to describe African Americans.
Well if black is fine, why is the latin word for it, "niger" a problem?
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:29 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:29 Switchy wrote:
Maybe they just wanted to get rid of him and saw this as a good opportunity! I doubt it, I think they just hired him like 4 days earlier.
Maybe he didn't shower and everyone was like "dear God how do we get rid of this nerd?" Then the witchhunt began...
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On March 10 2012 04:30 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:00 Defacer wrote:
I personally think Alex decision to outright dismiss Orb was harsh. But it's decisive and uncompromising and I actually respect him more for it.
Good for him. How about checking you new employee's credentials before giving him a job then? Let's face it: Alex is the one who messed up. The rants were given before the EG time. They were frequent. Still he missed it. There is no apology for his failure as a CEO. EG is a small buisness. If he can't even get that done, maybe he should rather quit. I never liked EG, getting bad mannered people like Idra, but as soon as they pay off, it's fine.
Don't be foolish. If you think a CEO/owner has time to delve into every detail of someone's career history, especially in a small business, your wrong.
I'm sure Orb was recommended by one of the players. Or Alex was watching his NASL casting and thought he had potential. That's all.
Don't blame Alex for not realize that Orb has been a bit of a inflammatory jackass for the past two years. Blame the jackass for being a jackass. It happens.
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On March 10 2012 04:31 AspectOfEternity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 03:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 10 2012 03:49 AspectOfEternity wrote:On March 10 2012 02:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 10 2012 02:47 battyone wrote:On March 10 2012 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 10 2012 02:43 battyone wrote:On March 10 2012 02:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 10 2012 02:34 battyone wrote:On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote:
because everyone is looking for someone to crucify? BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade. *EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/ There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now? And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional. There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it. So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency? Oh okay, well then in that case: Fire Artosis. That's pretty damn ridiculous. That's my point. I picked something that none of us would find offensive but could still be taken and blown up the same way the Orb situation was. It is pretty damn ridiculous, no? That's not even close to being similar to the Orb situation. Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones, and whether or not they're aimed at a black persn is irrelevant. As someone who's worked with/ taught/ tutored students who have a variety of mental disabilities, I don't see a way this could be blown out of proportion to the level of Orb's remarks. Artosis is acting silly and overly happy. He's bouncing around like a little kid. If you think that this should be offensive because mentally deficient people apparently act this way on a regular basis, I think you don't have a good handle on what the difference is between acting like a kid and having a handicap. What's next: you think giggling casters should be banned because you once heard a blind kid laugh, and so therefore it's offensive towards the blind? Someone needs to post the video of Day[9] laughing at himself laughing, because that's clearly offensive towards those of us who are visually impaired. Jesus. There's no slippery slope here. Racism and slander should be removed. Being silly, happy, and energetic: That can stay. Are you serious? "Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones" You basically just said that Orb explicitly said something implicit. If something 'has racial undertones', it's by definition implicit, if it wasn't they wouldn't be undertones. If what Orb said was explicit then there wouldn't be any debate as orb would have had to have said something along the lines of "I dislike black people, I believe that black people are inferior to other races or people and that you sir for cannon rushing me are analogous to black persons in your inferiority". That's what explict means. Please don't use words you don't grasp the meaning of, doing so offends me. Cute, but my use of the word "explicit" was referring to how he obviously (explicitly) typed the words that he did (including "nigger"), whereas any use of undertones or implicit nature refers to the context and connotation in which those words had. It was also in comparison to Artosis never explicitly making any racist/ offensive remarks, nor even doing anything even implicitly similar, and I made arguments and justifications for that difference. Maybe you should read for context. Ignoring the whole discussion that was going on, trying to sound smug, and not having proper reading comprehension skills offends me. "my use of the word "explicit" was referring to how he obviously (explicitly) typed the words that he did" Oh so you just wanted to clarify that he explicitly typed the words that he typed as opposed to implicitly typing them. Alright then, i retract my being offended, now I'm just sad for you because that's powerful stupid.
Yes, because adding in completely relevant words for effect and to justify an argument between explicit and implicit is "powerful stupid".
I appreciate the feedback and I will take that into consideration for the rest of my posts here on TeamLiquid. I'm so happy you set me straight.
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And, it should go without saying that if we'd ever known that Orb had used such language in the past, or was prone to using such language, we wouldn't have contracted him in the first place.
Also speaking of attacks on people. I feel like this is a little undeserved - especially in what is supposed to be a professional letter. You already fired the guy.
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I think this was handled pretty well by EG. I don't see why everyone is getting so butthurt over orb being fired. Sirscoots even said "we're going to believe him but if it turns out he's lying he's gone" and guess what? After people did replay/keybind analysis, and even saw orb watching that replay the next day on his stream, it turned out he was lying. I'm sure if he had told the truth from the start and apologized instead of lying about it and flaming the people that brought it up, he would've still had his job. I know it's "cool" to like orb because he likes to swear and you think it's "cool" and I know it's "cool" to not like idra because other people don't. But do you honestly think if people complained about the language Idra uses on his stream, and then Idra lied saying it was someone else on his account, and then it was proved that he was lying that he wouldn't have gotten in a lot of trouble?
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People went behind EG's back?
Now there's a first. People acted where it matters most. And we have no contract or implied loyalty to follow a 'chain of command.'
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On March 10 2012 04:00 Demonaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 03:52 Scootaloo wrote:
First, I don't agree with EG on their decision, Alex admits to giving Idra a minor scolding if he calls people faggots, giving Orb the boot emediatly after finding out something he did while not even contracted by EG, and that was clearly a emotional moment gotten out of hand, a single one, of which Idra has had ungodly amounts, yet Orb has to be disgraced and banned.
To me it just smells more like Alex has a crusade to fight that has nothing to do with Orb but more with his personal frustrations and idealism.
You misunderstand how EG works as a business. They make money primarily from sponsors through their large following and if a significant number of these fans are seriously offended to the point that their sponsors are being contacted directly, they have a serious problem on their hands if they don't immediately address the situation. Its fairly irrelevant what they personally think about it, the community has spoken. Orb had just been hired, he had little prior reputation behind him. Idra has been hugely popular since the beginning of SC2 and is a HUGE asset for EG in terms of how many people are fans of him. Idra can of course get away with a lot compared to someone new. This is a fact of life, hardly a surprise. Its very naive to think 'but idra said this and he doesn't have a problem'.
Yet that is not how Alex presents it, this was not because of fan outrage but his own problem with the word nigger and then goes on how PROUD he is of the SC2 community for ostracizing someone who made a comment with racial undertones, clearly in a heated moment while the retard example he uses in his first paragraph was a well thought out plan.
So essentially your argument boils down to Alex only cares about the sponsors, which makes the entire OP as good as pointless and a couple of people calling up their sponsors will make them bend at the knees for anyone, maybe I'll get 30 people together, call the sponsors and see if I can get Incontrol pulled because of his discriminating way of imitating foreigners.
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"black studies" is indeed kinda funny when you think about it and it should be afro american i guess?, i agree.
No country has more trouble with its racist past then the usa and the way they deal with it always suprises/amuses me.
Southpark made an episode about this and seeing this tread imediatly made me think of that
Will orb from now on be known as "nigger guy"? lol
You got to love sc though for providing more pulp entertainment then your daily soap on tv
Annyway,i dont want to downplay this to much.
Beeing politcally correct is serious business, specially in the states.
Though this is about more then simply beeing politcal correct.
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On March 10 2012 04:38 Rassy wrote:
"black studies" is indeed kinda funny when you think about it and it should be afro american, i agree.
Jamaicans and Haitians really hate "African-American"
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There's a difference between uttering the word 'nigger' and uttering it in anger as an insult towards a person. People want context? People want intention? Doesn't get any clearer than this.
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On March 10 2012 04:31 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 03:47 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 03:38 tofucake wrote:Okay people let's get something cleared up: homophobia and prejudice against homosexuals are different things. Saying faggot doesn't mean you're homophobic, it means you're prejudiced. A homophobe would not say faggot because it would involve thinking about homosexuals, which is terrifying. On March 10 2012 01:53 Zaros wrote:
because people are regularly victims of homophobia and racism... like that, you can't be a victim of someone being terrified of you. Spiders are not victims of my arachnophobia, I am the victim of my arachnophobia. People are regularly victims of self-serving assholes with a prejudice against some particular group of people. 1. The definition of homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. 2. Spiders are the victims are your arachnaphobia when you kill them out of fear. Much the same way homosexuals are victims of homophobia when they are assaulted, murdered, bullied, and denied the right to marriage or have a family because people are afraid they are going to destroy society. How did you earn a special icon? Now you're making assumptions. I don't touch spiders willingly, ever. Even to kill them. If I see one I have a panic attack and curl up into a ball. If, for whatever reason, I think about them I get nervous (I'm about half way to a panic attack atm thanks), and if this happens while I'm falling asleep I come bolt awake and can't get to sleep for hours. So no. Fuck the spiders. I'm the victim. People who claim they are hurting homosexuals because they are homophobic are simply liars. edit: I have the icon because I'm Liquipedia staff.
Hey hey, a fellow TRUE arachnophobic. When I first moved in with my wife, she made me kill some spiders in an outdoor closet we had. I told her I was truly phobic but she wrote it off as if i just didnt want to do it and basically made my as go out there.
I stood at the fuckin door for 5 minutes gathering the courage, and finally opened it to kill a harmless little spider. I came back into the house and my wife thought I passed out as I was completely flushed and out of breath.
Now she understands and she kills the little bastards.
Homophobia is used incorrectly these days as I'm sure people don't feel like they are going to pass out when they see a gay dude. The correct term is prejudiced. You aren't phobic.
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On March 10 2012 04:39 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:38 Rassy wrote:
"black studies" is indeed kinda funny when you think about it and it should be afro american, i agree. Jamaicans and Haitians really hate "African-American"
They're Caribbeans first.
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On March 10 2012 04:31 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 03:47 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 03:38 tofucake wrote:Okay people let's get something cleared up: homophobia and prejudice against homosexuals are different things. Saying faggot doesn't mean you're homophobic, it means you're prejudiced. A homophobe would not say faggot because it would involve thinking about homosexuals, which is terrifying. On March 10 2012 01:53 Zaros wrote:
because people are regularly victims of homophobia and racism... like that, you can't be a victim of someone being terrified of you. Spiders are not victims of my arachnophobia, I am the victim of my arachnophobia. People are regularly victims of self-serving assholes with a prejudice against some particular group of people. 1. The definition of homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. 2. Spiders are the victims are your arachnaphobia when you kill them out of fear. Much the same way homosexuals are victims of homophobia when they are assaulted, murdered, bullied, and denied the right to marriage or have a family because people are afraid they are going to destroy society. How did you earn a special icon? Now you're making assumptions. I don't touch spiders willingly, ever. Even to kill them. If I see one I have a panic attack and curl up into a ball. If, for whatever reason, I think about them I get nervous (I'm about half way to a panic attack atm thanks), and if this happens while I'm falling asleep I come bolt awake and can't get to sleep for hours. So no. Fuck the spiders. I'm the victim. People who claim they are hurting homosexuals because they are homophobic are simply liars. edit: I have the icon because I'm Liquipedia staff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
Homophobia covers more than just "fear" in the strictest sense of the word. Although I would still argue that irrational fear is what drives the prejudice.
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On March 10 2012 04:21 Zocat wrote:While I agree with EG's reaction, this part of the post irritates me: Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice. Do you guys in America really have "BLACK studies" (it's called that way)? And dont think it's racist? I'd say African(-American) would be the pc term. Please feel free to correct me - just interested
It depends on the university: "African & African-American Studies" is common in the Ivy League, but at any given institution, you might see "Black Studies", "African-American Studies", or "Africana Studies" instead (the amount of focus on Africa might play a role).
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On March 10 2012 04:36 plogamer wrote:
People went behind EG's back?
Now there's a first. People acted where it matters most. And we have no contract or implied loyalty to follow a 'chain of command.'
I take it your replying to me from the previous page?
It doesn't matter if their isn't a chain of command we all know. If you dislike an employee, go to their boss, not their bosses boss. As i said, EG had to fire him, if the sponsors were pissed, EG will bend to the sponsors. This is how a business works. My example on the previous page still spans. If my bosses boss is mad that I did something, and they want me fired, my boss will do it without a second thought. My boss will do it even though im the best employee he has.
EG is being the same way. The community didn't notify EG, they notified every single sponsor. EG had no chance to do damage control or remedy the situation, the sponsors were told, and the sponsors spoke.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work.
How did we get from point A to point B? lol...
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On March 10 2012 04:36 Arghmyliver wrote:
And, it should go without saying that if we'd ever known that Orb had used such language in the past, or was prone to using such language, we wouldn't have contracted him in the first place.
Also speaking of attacks on people. I feel like this is a little undeserved - especially in what is supposed to be a professional letter. You already fired the guy.
Really? How is that attacking the guy unnecessarily? They are just clarifying their position and stance.
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