Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
On March 10 2012 04:16 Thrombozyt wrote: Honestly.. this case makes me dislike EG hard core. You sacrifice an employee for shit he has done in the past that might offend some thin skinned PC-fanatics (PC in this case = political correctness).
It nearly makes me go through all media presence of Idra and all other EG guys checking if they have used similar language - EVER.
Things like that make me angry. People acting on words and not on meaning. But words are there to confer meaning and therefore it should be acted upon the meaning and not the wording. Nigger (there - I said it - I'm SUCH a bad person) really is an incredibly weak insult anyhow. Either you are black, then you are part of the African-American population which are in a derogatory fashion called Niggers, or you are not - in which case it's just nonsense. So even if the person called a Nigger is black, it just says that the speaker has prejudice. What is the difference between a Nigger and an African-American? Objectively there isn't one. The only difference is that the first word is preferred by prejudiced speakers to underline their conviction.
I'm a German. I'm called a Kraut by some random Brit (again.. Brit.. has been used in German WW2 propagande posters.. highly offensive) in the UK. Am I offended? Not really. I'm not happy, but mainly because I can imply that the speaker hasn't got a positive attitude towards me and probably Germans in general. But do I go bonkers and pull the 'OMG! I'm the victim of evil racism!'-card (TM)? Hell no. Because he makes himself look stupid by calling me German in a different way.
I realize, that using Nigger to offend someone white can be seen as an offense to all black people (wait.. black people.. am I allowed to type that?). Yes.. but comeon.. grow a pair. Do I jump and yell every time one person calls another one a Nazi, despite the second person clearly not being part of a fascist regime? Hell no. Words and meaning. The meaning is "I'm angry at you and I wanna express my anger and make you angry too". He could use ANY kind of insult.
So please EG, either fire EVERYONE who has repeatedly insulted ANYONE with choice swear words or stay cool and let the PC-sissies (again - PC is NOT personal computer here) whine and cry.
If you have to single out a single swear word as extra evil, pick 'retard' and 'retarded' because that is actually a really insulting assumption about the targets intelligence and also picking on a group of people that through bad luck (genes/birth defect) are terribly afflicted.
May you be blessed by perspective Thrombozyt
You say that words are there to confer meaning, and then criticize people for conferring meaning from Orb's choice of words.
I think a lot of people are angry because this incident is challenging their perspective on racism. Rather than face it head-on, they give us twisted logic about 'meaning' or 'intention' and arguments about EG's hypocrisy (rather than demanding higher standards from EG's star players).
Get used to it folks. Welcome to the mainstream. As you eloquontly put it, "grow a pair" yourself.
The fact that using the "n-word" out of context in such a way that it has no intended racial implications shouldn't be equated to cocaine use at work. I guess it is, and I'm basically arguing that it shouldn't.
Using the n-word as an insult has racial implications, intended or not. Not only is it offensive to black people just to use the word period, but when you call someone a "dumb n-word" it implies that being black is a negative quality.
I don't think orb is a racist, and I don't think he intended any racism at any point, but what he did is still racist. You can do racist things without being a racist, I guess is my point.
See I don't believe that. Racism is an emotion, a sentiment. You don't do racist things without being racist. If you think that you can, well the discussion stops there unless you can convince me, but what you did is a statement of belief.
When I call my friend a "dumb faggot", the word "faggot" is nothing but an empty shell. If people decide that the word is homophobic, well I disagree. I acknowledge the meaning of the word "faggot", but what actually counts is the intention in what I'm saying. There is no racism or homophobia in my heart, and saying that there is is offensive to me, and a gross misunderstanding of human interaction.
There is homophobia in your heart because you think being gay is an insult. Although if my words are just an empty shell, you can't be offended by me calling you a homophobe because this entire post is just an empty shell.
This is what happens when extreme political correctness takes over. You have asshole jews like Alex Garfield firing honest hard-working men like Orb because of a few old comments that were taken entirely out of context. Fuck you, Alex Garfield.
I personally think Alex decision to outright dismiss Orb was harsh. But it's decisive and uncompromising and I actually respect him more for it.
Good for him.
How about checking you new employee's credentials before giving him a job then?
Let's face it: Alex is the one who messed up. The rants were given before the EG time. They were frequent. Still he missed it. There is no apology for his failure as a CEO.
EG is a small buisness. If he can't even get that done, maybe he should rather quit. I never liked EG, getting bad mannered people like Idra, but as soon as they pay off, it's fine.
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency?
Oh okay, well then in that case: Fire Artosis.
That's pretty damn ridiculous.
That's my point. I picked something that none of us would find offensive but could still be taken and blown up the same way the Orb situation was. It is pretty damn ridiculous, no?
That's not even close to being similar to the Orb situation. Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones, and whether or not they're aimed at a black persn is irrelevant. As someone who's worked with/ taught/ tutored students who have a variety of mental disabilities, I don't see a way this could be blown out of proportion to the level of Orb's remarks. Artosis is acting silly and overly happy. He's bouncing around like a little kid. If you think that this should be offensive because mentally deficient people apparently act this way on a regular basis, I think you don't have a good handle on what the difference is between acting like a kid and having a handicap.
What's next: you think giggling casters should be banned because you once heard a blind kid laugh, and so therefore it's offensive towards the blind? Someone needs to post the video of Day[9] laughing at himself laughing, because that's clearly offensive towards those of us who are visually impaired. Jesus.
There's no slippery slope here. Racism and slander should be removed. Being silly, happy, and energetic: That can stay.
Are you serious?
"Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones"
You basically just said that Orb explicitly said something implicit. If something 'has racial undertones', it's by definition implicit, if it wasn't they wouldn't be undertones.
If what Orb said was explicit then there wouldn't be any debate as orb would have had to have said something along the lines of "I dislike black people, I believe that black people are inferior to other races or people and that you sir for cannon rushing me are analogous to black persons in your inferiority". That's what explict means.
Please don't use words you don't grasp the meaning of, doing so offends me.
Cute, but my use of the word "explicit" was referring to how he obviously (explicitly) typed the words that he did (including "nigger"), whereas any use of undertones or implicit nature refers to the context and connotation in which those words had. It was also in comparison to Artosis never explicitly making any racist/ offensive remarks, nor even doing anything even implicitly similar, and I made arguments and justifications for that difference.
Maybe you should read for context. Ignoring the whole discussion that was going on, trying to sound smug, and not having proper reading comprehension skills offends me.
"my use of the word "explicit" was referring to how he obviously (explicitly) typed the words that he did"
Oh so you just wanted to clarify that he explicitly typed the words that he typed as opposed to implicitly typing them.
Alright then, i retract my being offended, now I'm just sad for you because that's powerful stupid.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote: My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice.
Do you guys in America really have "BLACK studies" (it's called that way)? And dont think it's racist? I'd say African(-American) would be the pc term.
Please feel free to correct me - just interested
"African American" is a horrendously paternalistic term, implying that black people have no important ethnic or cultural roots other than Africa. Call a Jamaican an "African American" and see if he thinks it's a correct moniker.
Eh? I'm sorry EG. I didn't actually know about this at all until I read this statement. And even as well composed that op is, it all comes down to "orb used the N-word. Orb is now kicked".
You honestly don't see why this is absurb? This is a word, used without racial context, that black people use every day about themselves. While I do find Orb interesting to listen to, I have never been a huge fan of him. Yet today EG just lost one.
E-sports wants to be professional and mainstream...well a caster in any other sport would be instantly fired and probably banished forever if they went around calling people n'ers. Thats all that needs to be said really. Its part of gaming culture to throw around racial slurs and people think its no big deal but if u really want esports to evolve u can't tolerate that shit...personally I always found it stupid and immature for ppl to use the word so freely in games.
On March 10 2012 03:38 tofucake wrote: Okay people let's get something cleared up: homophobia and prejudice against homosexuals are different things. Saying faggot doesn't mean you're homophobic, it means you're prejudiced. A homophobe would not say faggot because it would involve thinking about homosexuals, which is terrifying.
On March 10 2012 01:53 Zaros wrote: because people are regularly victims of homophobia and racism...
like that, you can't be a victim of someone being terrified of you. Spiders are not victims of my arachnophobia, I am the victim of my arachnophobia.
People are regularly victims of self-serving assholes with a prejudice against some particular group of people.
1. The definition of homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. 2. Spiders are the victims are your arachnaphobia when you kill them out of fear. Much the same way homosexuals are victims of homophobia when they are assaulted, murdered, bullied, and denied the right to marriage or have a family because people are afraid they are going to destroy society.
How did you earn a special icon?
Now you're making assumptions. I don't touch spiders willingly, ever. Even to kill them. If I see one I have a panic attack and curl up into a ball. If, for whatever reason, I think about them I get nervous (I'm about half way to a panic attack atm thanks), and if this happens while I'm falling asleep I come bolt awake and can't get to sleep for hours.
So no.
Fuck the spiders.
I'm the victim.
People who claim they are hurting homosexuals because they are homophobic are simply liars.
edit: I have the icon because I'm Liquipedia staff.
I feel this is completely misdirected, such lengthy measures should only be taken against people who are blatantly racist. This is simply an overreaction.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote: My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice.
Do you guys in America really have "BLACK studies" (it's called that way)? And dont think it's racist? I'd say African(-American) would be the pc term.
Please feel free to correct me - just interested
Saying black is not racist, what is racist is to link some competences / knowledge / habits / qualities to the fact of having the black color.
I'm not sure i'm proud about how all that turned out. My first feeling is that it is overreacted, mainly because every body says weird shit due to frustration in a ladder game - like half of the community must have say "fag" or "faggot" and nobody care about that which is not something to be proud about. But on the other side, racism in real life is one of the thing that is hardest for me to accept (have been in some situation and felt really bad about watching guy having to bear racist comment because of his color, made me lost my cool quite a lot) and it's really weird to tell someone he is a nigger just because he won a game on starcraft.
On March 10 2012 03:38 tofucake wrote: Okay people let's get something cleared up: homophobia and prejudice against homosexuals are different things. Saying faggot doesn't mean you're homophobic, it means you're prejudiced. A homophobe would not say faggot because it would involve thinking about homosexuals, which is terrifying.
On March 10 2012 01:53 Zaros wrote: because people are regularly victims of homophobia and racism...
like that, you can't be a victim of someone being terrified of you. Spiders are not victims of my arachnophobia, I am the victim of my arachnophobia.
People are regularly victims of self-serving assholes with a prejudice against some particular group of people.
1. The definition of homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. 2. Spiders are the victims are your arachnaphobia when you kill them out of fear. Much the same way homosexuals are victims of homophobia when they are assaulted, murdered, bullied, and denied the right to marriage or have a family because people are afraid they are going to destroy society.
How did you earn a special icon?
Now you're making assumptions. I don't touch spiders willingly, ever. Even to kill them. If I see one I have a panic attack and curl up into a ball. If, for whatever reason, I think about them I get nervous (I'm about half way to a panic attack atm thanks), and if this happens while I'm falling asleep I come bolt awake and can't get to sleep for hours.
So no.
Fuck the spiders.
I'm the victim.
People who claim they are hurting homosexuals because they are homophobic are simply liars.
edit: I have the icon because I'm Liquipedia staff.
I think in our society we assume every prejudice against homosexual is homophobia because we consider the reason for the prejudice : you will agress an homosexual because you have fear of him and you don't know who he is.
Just like xenophobia is when you feel that strangers can be dangerous for you, without necessarily feeling that strangers are under you in any way.
On March 10 2012 04:12 Kresnik02 wrote: Its only me who believes that Starcraft 2 isnt his private life if his job is Starcraft 2?
Yes it is just you. My job is a chef. I don't get fired from my job if there is accidentally a hair in my kids P.B.J. Especially if it happened before I started working there.
If I found out you called your kids niggers and verbally berated them on a regular basis, I'd probably fire you.
I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that would be illegal.
Not if he's employed "At will" They can fire you for not liking your shirt, as long as it's not race, religion, sexual preference.
On March 10 2012 04:19 David Dark wrote: orb saying those things in 2010(?) on his private stream while ladddering, year later he loses a job as a caster?
Idra as an official member of EG calls people 'faggots' and it's ok, while orb gets kicked for something he did before he got together with EG?
You and alot of other people need to realize a few things.
As other people have mentioned, people went behind EG's back and made complaints to all of their sponsors. Orb had to be punished. This is what happens when you dont follow the proper line of escalations in a well run business. If EG's sponsors are angry, then EG kinda has to do what they want.
I'll give a different example.
I do tech support in a Callcenter. We work for 100's of ISP's. If a customer complains about me, the ISP can request a recording of that call. If they listen to it, and are angry, my boss has to do whatever they want. If they want me fired, then im fired. It doesn't matter that ive worked here for 6 years and won last years 'top performer' award. If i piss off my bosses boss, then i get punished as severely as the 'higher ups' want me to be punished.
Lesson to be learned: 1. Dont go behind the teams back, contact the team, not their sponsors. 2. We should all realize the impact this has on peoples lives, this instance prolly ruined Orb's career in esports, or hurt it severely. Going through the correct contacts and following a good protocol could have saved Orb. 3. People are never treated equal, Orb does not equal Idra. 4. EG is good at PR
I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that would be illegal.
That depends on what state you live in (in the US). States like California have very strict guidelines about when you can fire someone. States like South Carolina have basically no guidelines, you can fire anyone at any time for any reason.
See I don't believe that. Racism is an emotion, a sentiment. You don't do racist things without being racist. If you think that you can, well the discussion stops there unless you can convince me, but what you did is a statement of belief.
When I call my friend a "dumb faggot", the word "faggot" is nothing but an empty shell. If people decide that the word is homophobic, well I disagree. I acknowledge the meaning of the word "faggot", but what actually counts is the intention in what I'm saying. There is no racism or homophobia in my heart, and saying that there is is offensive to me, and a gross misunderstanding of human interaction.
I guess we have a semantical disagreement, really. I agree that in the context of what orb did, the n-word could have been interchanged with any other generic curse word (bitch, cunt, faggot, w/e), which is why I don't think he's a racist person. I guess I'm not bothered by calling a specific act "racist" or "homophobic" without extending the label to the person themselves, which might just be me.
For example, I would call it a homophobic remark if you call your friend a faggot as a direct insult with no intended humor (jokes are weird and I'm not gonna go into that), but I don't think it would make you a homophobe. You can't just pretend the word's meaning isn't there just because the intent isn't, that's just a cop-out, in my opinion.
By the way, I use "faggot" as an insult all the time, and am fairly active in my school's LGBT group, so I'm not bothered by it. Still think it's a homophobic insult, though.
I just can't get over the fact that this happened before he was even working with them. Everything else I can understand, and if he was saying shit like this after being known as an EG associate, then it's acceptable to dismiss him. How can you really hold someone accountable to something they did prior to them working with you?
People keep saying things along the lines of, "Get tougher skin," or, "You're going to live a hard life if you're this sensitive." Yet, look at your responses to this reality that has demonstrated itself. Take your own advice.
EPT
