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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 04:35 Djzapz wrote:
I don't think being gay is an insult, that's you saying that. When I call a friend a faggot, it's a friendly gesture - and when I call a stranger a faggot (that doesn't really happen) because I'm mad at them, it doesn't have any link to homosexuality. It's only a generic insult.
Don't tell me how I feel, you're an imbecile for thinking that you can dictate to me how I feel based on a word I use.
You are knowingly contributing to a discourse which classifies homosexuality as bad, and worth of insult. In fact, it is so "bad" that you can say it to someone else as an insult even without the connotation of the actual sexuality part. The negative connotation of homosexuality has become so ingrained in our society that we're pretending it doesn't exist now apparently. If you are so narrow minded that you can't see the consequences of wide spread word usage, to which you contribute, then I'd suggest you need to take a step back and reevaluate how you look at the world. Intent matters, but it isn't the ONLY thing that matters. When you call someone a faggot it DOES have a link to homosexuality, whether or not you intended it to. That is the thing people seem to be missing in this thread with regards to these racially or sexually charged words. It IS NOT a generic insult EVEN WHEN YOU MEAN IT TO BE. You can't simply ignore the history of a word. Especially not when the negative consequences of those words (and the actions associated with them) are still very much with us.
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On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work.
Now here's a twisted logic at its finest.
I guess laws against murder is also there to strike the fear of murder and promote subservience from the populace.
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On March 10 2012 04:39 Champ24 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:31 tofucake wrote:On March 10 2012 03:47 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 03:38 tofucake wrote:Okay people let's get something cleared up: homophobia and prejudice against homosexuals are different things. Saying faggot doesn't mean you're homophobic, it means you're prejudiced. A homophobe would not say faggot because it would involve thinking about homosexuals, which is terrifying. On March 10 2012 01:53 Zaros wrote:
because people are regularly victims of homophobia and racism... like that, you can't be a victim of someone being terrified of you. Spiders are not victims of my arachnophobia, I am the victim of my arachnophobia. People are regularly victims of self-serving assholes with a prejudice against some particular group of people. 1. The definition of homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. 2. Spiders are the victims are your arachnaphobia when you kill them out of fear. Much the same way homosexuals are victims of homophobia when they are assaulted, murdered, bullied, and denied the right to marriage or have a family because people are afraid they are going to destroy society. How did you earn a special icon? Now you're making assumptions. I don't touch spiders willingly, ever. Even to kill them. If I see one I have a panic attack and curl up into a ball. If, for whatever reason, I think about them I get nervous (I'm about half way to a panic attack atm thanks), and if this happens while I'm falling asleep I come bolt awake and can't get to sleep for hours. So no. Fuck the spiders. I'm the victim. People who claim they are hurting homosexuals because they are homophobic are simply liars. edit: I have the icon because I'm Liquipedia staff. Hey hey, a fellow TRUE arachnophobic. When I first moved in with my wife, she made me kill some spiders in an outdoor closet we had. I told her I was truly phobic but she wrote it off as if i just didnt want to do it and basically made my as go out there. I stood at the fuckin door for 5 minutes gathering the courage, and finally opened it to kill a harmless little spider. I came back into the house and my wife thought I passed out as I was completely flushed and out of breath. Now she understands and she kills the little bastards. Homophobia is used incorrectly these days as I'm sure people don't feel like they are going to pass out when they see a gay dude. The correct term is prejudiced. You aren't phobic.
I agree with this. "Homophobia" has become more of a colloquialism for "prejudice against gays", rather than "irrational fear of gays".
That sucks about your spider story though x.x
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Hyrule19264 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:41 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work. How did we get from point A to point B? lol...
How did we get to point A in the first place?
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On March 10 2012 04:16 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:14 Magic_Mike wrote:On March 10 2012 04:12 Kresnik02 wrote:
Its only me who believes that Starcraft 2 isnt his private life if his job is Starcraft 2? Yes it is just you. My job is a chef. I don't get fired from my job if there is accidentally a hair in my kids P.B.J. Especially if it happened before I started working there. If I found out you called your kids niggers and verbally berated them on a regular basis, I'd probably fire you.
What if I got in a fight with my wife and called her a bitch? What if I called an obese person fat? What if I insult old people by making jokes about their memory or smell? Where do we draw the line? If they are going to punish one employee they have to punish all of them equally? Why is it so much more offensive to say nigger than retard? Why is it more severe? Is it because blacks have had a history with the term nigger? Is it because of the discrimination that blacks have faced for years because of their race? Guess what. My bigger sister, has been treated poorly for being mentally disabled her entire life. As a member of a family that includes a mentally disabled person I grew up with a lot of other families with similar situations. They were treated on average much worse than any black person or any other ethnic group for that matter. Far worse. Why is it ok then to call things or people retarted when the term has caused so much hurt to so many people.
I've been hospitalized simply for being related to a "retard." My sister used to pretend to be the Pink Power Ranger when we were kids at the bus stop. My sister walked to school as she was a few years older. One day we saw a fight from a few blocks away with a bunch of high school kids standing around laughing and pointing. We could tell someone was getting beat on by a buch of people and everyone else was watching. When my younger brother and I were going over there, we saw that it was our sister. She was lying on the ground in a white t-shirt with blood and dirt stains all over it while three other kids were kicking her and another kept spitting on her and laughing. Everyone else just stood and laughed. We rushed to try to stop her. They started in on us. I had my face stepped on where my nose broke and was unconcious almost right away. I woke up in the hospital. My little brother had his tail bone broken and apparently one of them stabbed him with a bunch of hypodermic needles so he had to get AIDs testing. Apparently it was funny for them to beat on us while they watched the "retard" pink power ranger try to defend her siblings when she could only sit there and cry.
The terms retard, fat, ugly, gay, faggot, stupid, cracker, spic, all have simliar histories tied to belittling people based on something that most times isn't under their control and I would wager that all of them involve violence in one form or another. My story is certainly not uncommon according to a large portion of the people I grew up around (our parents hung out with people with similar children for help and support) while I'll agree that our situation was slightly more severe. There were still violence, namecalling and people getting hurt based off of those terms.
To punish one person who works for you based off of the things that were said before he worked for you that include a term many would find offensive seems like it would make sense. However, by not acknowleding that these other terms are just as offensive and can cause just as much pain by taking no actions (or really small by comparison) of the employees who use them is even more insulting than them using them in the first place. It feels like you are supporting the use of terms that shouldn't be used all all while punishing those that you "personally" don't like. Just because you have a soft spot or some "inside" knowledge on the term nigger or otherwise makes no difference on the simple concepts of fairness. If you want to punish someone for using slanderous terms, you can't pick and choose. It makes you look like a hypocrite. And I fucking hate hypocrites. Are you saying it's ok to do one but no the other? It's ok to use the term retard but not nigger? If so EG as an organization disgusts me and is no better than the people who beat on us as kids or the people who did the same to blacks just because of the color of their skin.
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okay seriously, Morgan Freeman is not an authority on race issues just because he's black, stop posting that stupid video just because it resonates with the white idea of wishing it would just go away to assuage your guilt. The idea of "not talking about it" as a solution is laughable at best and does nothing to make people examine their implicit biases that dominate western consciousness, which constitute REAL harm, and we ALL carry this and contribute to the harm so long as we don't examine ourselves. And the evidence of this is incontrovertible really so please if you want to engage in the discussion understand that you shouldn't present purely fallacious and ignorant ideas.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=buried-prejudice-the-bigot-in-your-brain
http://finenessandaccuracy.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/nouning-considered-harmful/
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On March 10 2012 04:35 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:30 testthewest wrote:On March 10 2012 04:00 Defacer wrote:
I personally think Alex decision to outright dismiss Orb was harsh. But it's decisive and uncompromising and I actually respect him more for it.
Good for him. How about checking you new employee's credentials before giving him a job then? Let's face it: Alex is the one who messed up. The rants were given before the EG time. They were frequent. Still he missed it. There is no apology for his failure as a CEO. EG is a small buisness. If he can't even get that done, maybe he should rather quit. I never liked EG, getting bad mannered people like Idra, but as soon as they pay off, it's fine. Don't be foolish. If you think a CEO/owner has time to delve into every detail of someone's career history, especially in a small business, your wrong. I'm sure Orb was recommended by one of the players. Or Alex was watching his NASL casting and thought he had potential. That's all. Don't blame Alex for not realize that Orb has been a bit of a inflammatory jackass for the past two years. Blame the jackass for being a jackass. It happens.
Of course he has to have the time! His company has how many employees? 20?
How important is his company to him? Getting the right people is the first and most important job for any owner of a small buisness!
Do you think a owner of a shop would hire someone who has a history as a shoplifter?
As an internet-base company it's even easier. Doing a web based search, whatching the Vods/replays/Streams...
Instead of studing years about racism, he should have rather kept his focus on his job.
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I disagree completely with Alex and EG's decision here. Unfortunately we live in a world were a person can and will be judged based on one incident. In the esports community especially I guess, which is disapointing.
Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of orb, as a person or as a caster but I also don't think it's right or fair for someone to be fired for a comment they made a year before they were even employed. EG is clearly caving to pressure from their sponsors and from the so-called 'fans' that seem to gladly grab there pitchforks and jump on the bandwagon whenever something happens, which is both ridiculous and pathetic. EG has lost a lot of respect from me today, whether that means anything at all to them is a different story, I suppose while they're raking in the cash nothing will change.
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On March 10 2012 04:35 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:29 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 04:29 Switchy wrote:
Maybe they just wanted to get rid of him and saw this as a good opportunity! I doubt it, I think they just hired him like 4 days earlier. Maybe he didn't shower and everyone was like "dear God how do we get rid of this nerd?" Then the witchhunt began...
LOL, this is the only thing that makes sense in this thread. CHILL OUT everyone!
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I don't know what's more racist, the n word or people thinking all black people are africans.
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Hyrule19264 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs
no slurs for white people?
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Calgary26004 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:43 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:41 Chill wrote:On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work. How did we get from point A to point B? lol... How did we get to point A in the first place?
SC community out for blood. Who do you think the next target will be? I'd guess people get Moletrap fired next.
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On March 10 2012 04:34 Klipsys wrote:
I just can't get over the fact that this happened before he was even working with them. Everything else I can understand, and if he was saying shit like this after being known as an EG associate, then it's acceptable to dismiss him. How can you really hold someone accountable to something they did prior to them working with you?
I know what you mean. The thing about the U.S. and sponsors and whatnot, "touchyness", specifically regarding the word "nigger". The culture of zero tolerance, etc. In America it's basically akin to being a convicted criminal if someone catches you using it out of context and attacking an individual. This is the C.Y.A. (Cover Your Ass) corporate directive and is designed to bolster the image of the organization which deploys it. I've lost some respect for E.G. for this (the firing, not Orb, since everyone knows... he sometimes says things he doesn't mean), but I totally understand the decision to cover their ass.
I remember when Gretorp said all Asians look the same on an NASL cast in the first season, and I thought he'd get in shit for it. Sorry. Not an attempt to derail or anything... just an anecdote.
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The PC inquisition coming down on someone for saying a "forbidden word" when he was 8 years old? It would be ridiculous if it wasn't so dystopian.
Policing language is anathema to free speech, and political correctness, albeit defensible in the case of racial slurs, is a euphemism for censorship. And if given the chance, it won't stop at racial slurs, but actually establish NewSpeak.
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Just to clear up some faulty logic... you guys are saying words like 'f--t' don't imply that you hate gay people... but the term is used to indicate an undesirable/dislike/hatred towards the other person. When you use this term, you're reinforcing the fact that these traits are undesirable and unwanted. Its scary to me that these ethnic/sexual slurs are so ingrained in you guys that you don't even think twice about it.... You somehow justify these slurs by saying that you're either 'joking' or its how we 'greet each other'... but there is a message beneath those words that you're conveying to everyone around you.
When you say n---r it implies the exact same thing. That being black is negative/undesirable/ 'stupid' as Orb puts it. People have consistently brought up that other black people will say this to each other... Doing so is an attempt to take ownership of that word back, so that it DOESN'T have any power. Its like throwing it back into the faces of everyone who used it negativily.. now it can be THEIR word, and it won't be insulting anymore...
So in terms of Orb- he uses derogatory terms to alienate and express hatred towards some strangers online.... that is not appropriate for any buisness.. If I ever muttered any of the above words at my work and someone heard me, I would be fired in a heart beat.... if I was out with co-workers and using this type of language... I would be fired....
Everyone's argument that this happened *Years ago* ... this happened 6 months ago.. stop trying to minimize his behaviors...
Bye Orb. One less hateful caster in this community.
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-_- try saying n----- in any respectable workplace and see if it doesn't get you fired
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On March 10 2012 04:45 Pisko. wrote:
I don't know what's more racist, the n word or people thinking all black people are africans.
Aren't all people technically Africans (on an evolutionary scale), therefore making all black people Africans?
Or are you distinguishing between modern dark-colored humans?
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On March 10 2012 04:45 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:41 Swift118 wrote:
You pretty much have to adhere to race relation laws these days in western countries. Rich whites are basically trying to create an inferiority complex in the the minds of blacks to have them as lower class citizens for years to come, this is why they want blacks to be offended by a word which is used to describe them. There is no word that offends whites, why, because it is basically getting drilled into peoples minds that whites are superior and that no words will offend whites as there is no truth behind racial slurs towards whites to make it offensive. To truly conquer people you must control their minds. The whites that have made laws against saying words like nigger are basically the real racists, although they are clever in the ways they conduct themselves. Social engineering at work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slursno slurs for white people?
"American" 
(That's what I've heard, anyway.)
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On March 10 2012 04:42 SnuggleZhenya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:35 Djzapz wrote:
I don't think being gay is an insult, that's you saying that. When I call a friend a faggot, it's a friendly gesture - and when I call a stranger a faggot (that doesn't really happen) because I'm mad at them, it doesn't have any link to homosexuality. It's only a generic insult.
Don't tell me how I feel, you're an imbecile for thinking that you can dictate to me how I feel based on a word I use. You are knowingly contributing to a discourse which classifies homosexuality as bad, and worth of insult. In fact, it is so bad that you can say it to someone else as an insult even without the connotation of the actual sexuality part. If you are so narrow minded that you can't see the consequences of wide spread word usage, to which you contribute, then I'd suggest you need to take a step back and reevaluate how you look at the world. Intent matters, but it isn't the ONLY thing that matters. When you call someone a faggot it DOES have a link to homosexuality, whether or not you intended it to. That is the thing people seem to be missing in this thread with regards to these racially or sexually charged words. It IS NOT a generic insult EVEN WHEN YOU MEAN IT TO BE. You can't simply ignore the history of a word. Especially not when the negative consequences of those words (and the actions associated with them) are still very much with us.
Well what can I say, I disagree. I trivialize homosexuality by making light of the whole situation. The idea that the usage of the word by itself has negative consequences seems like a shoddy assumption to me.
I think it's you who is narrow minded, and that's why you choose to ban a word rather than understand it, and mock it, or use it recklessly, like the joke it can become.
If people choose to be offended by the usage of the word, they should grow up. But no I don't think I contribute to a hateful discourse which I thoroughly dislike. And will I argue against every time I come across said discourse - and I'll continue to call my friends faggots in good faith, mostly in closed circles.
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On March 10 2012 04:41 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 04:36 plogamer wrote:
People went behind EG's back?
Now there's a first. People acted where it matters most. And we have no contract or implied loyalty to follow a 'chain of command.' I take it your replying to me from the previous page? It doesn't matter if their isn't a chain of command we all know. If you dislike an employee, go to their boss, not their bosses boss. As i said, EG had to fire him, if the sponsors were pissed, EG will bend to the sponsors. This is how a business works. My example on the previous page still spans. If my bosses boss is mad that I did something, and they want me fired, my boss will do it without a second thought. My boss will do it even though im the best employee he has. EG is being the same way. The community didn't notify EG, they notified every single sponsor. EG had no chance to do damage control or remedy the situation, the sponsors were told, and the sponsors spoke.
Again, by what rule - written or unwritten - do we go to the boss and not the boss' boss? EG did do damage control - they fired Orb.
Boss' bosses don't get mad over little, itty-bitty complaints. This was complaint was with ample evidence, and with enough outcry from the community.
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