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On February 29 2012 08:05 pampelmus wrote:
*sigh*
All you people acting from a moral high ground. "Accusing", "disgrace", "disrespectful", "unprofessional". The guy is not even a professional after all. He's casting this for nothing (or a handful of dollars, that amount is most probably so low, that you cannot describe him as a professional), creating free content for the community, Because he likes it, because thinks its fun, because he is a good guy. Where do these absurdly high moral standards come from?
Guys, we're still a bunch of 12-30 year olds playing and watching a computer game. In this case, for 75$. Put things into perspective. Fanboyism is nice and all, but it's a computer game. A guy casting because he thinks it's fun. Why so serious? Enjoy the game, enjoy the free casting you get, enjoy that Playhem frackin' flies your idol with a little shady past to IPL4 for nothing!
Go out, listen to people chattering, bickering, talking. This is not Equestria (there are no pitchforks anyway afaik). This is earth.
Well....
"A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and to complete them for a fee"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional
You contradict yourself, if he IS getting paid then he IS a professional. He needs to act as such. Stop putting YOUR morals onto the community, you think its absurdly high, the rest of the community sees acting like a troll ( while getting paid ), during a live game both immature and foolish. Professionalism is a big deal, especially when we claim we want eSports to grow. If i turned on a divison 3 college basketball game you can bet your ass those announcers are going to be professional. When they arent, they get fired.
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Russian Federation36 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:19 Endall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:17 Methnos wrote:
Has Dragon cheated in the past? Yes he has, that is a fact.
Did Katu stipulate that Dragon was currently stream cheating? Not directly, no.
Katu never blatantly stated that Dragon was cheating currently, he was making a joke, yes, perhaps in poor taste, but this is just way out of proportion.
It actually isn't a fact. All he is guilty of so far is using a smurf account. There was never punishment or admission of him stream cheating. If you know something the rest of us don't know then please link your sources.
Using a smurf account, Seo Yeon Ji, Dragon participated in various online tournaments. In particular, he participated in A1 KotH where he finished 1st in September 2010’s overall ranking. Based on this result, he was invited to play in A1 Starcraft2 Tournament #2 which invited top 6 players from KotH and 2 other players.
In the first round of the tournament, he played against TheStC and won. Soon after the match, TheStC wrote in PlayXP that “Seo Yeon Ji used absurd counter build order without scouting. I know that Seo Yeon Ji is MioWerra’s smurf account and MioWerra has been doing stream-cheating online.”[8]
After speaking with TheStC and members of WeRRa, Dragon publicly apologized to TheStC, members of oGs and WeRRa. After Dragon was accused of maphacking, streamcheating and match fixing on PlayXP-forums[9], he then replied that "he was sorry for what he had done" but didn't go into detail which parts of the allegations were true. Furthermore he stated that he would “never dream of other tournaments, televised matches, or pursue a career as a pro-gamer.”[10]
WeRRa’s clan master Gundam and vice clan master Cella also apologized publicly and Dragon was expelled from WeRRa. WeRRa disbanded a month later, after another scandal surrounding it’s clan master Gundam.
After getting expelled from WeRRa, Dragon joined SlayerS clan. He succeeded in qualifying for GSL 3 In November 2010 which led to a public outcry. Despite public pressure, GOMTV took no action against him. After getting eliminated by NesTea in the first round, he wrote an apology for breaking his earlier promise. Mr. Chae from GOMTV also released a statement explaining their stance on the matter.
Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dragon
A little bit fishy for 'just' using a smurf account no?
In any case, we all still love and respect Dragon. I know I am a big fan. Katu,however, should not be crucified because what he has said is not nearly as bad as what everyone is making it out to be.
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Katu was just saying what could possibly be going on with Dragon. IMO no big deal. He said sorry, lets move on.
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I love playhem and watch it everyday, but when I heard this I really have to rethink the show. While I still have respect for playhem, I think this clear lack of professionalism will have my time devoted elsewhere.
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On February 29 2012 08:38 Natheel13 wrote:
I love playhem and watch it everyday, but when I heard this I really have to rethink the show. While I still have respect for playhem, I think this clear lack of professionalism will have my time devoted elsewhere.
Didn't think North Korea had a lot of spare time
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Well I think this thread is pretty much spent. Just want to throw it out there to Katu and Playhem that as someone who thinks Dragon deserves a second chance in this community (and has got one for the most part) I have no hard feelings towards Katu and I hope other fans of Dragon will echo these sentiments. While I found his comments somewhat mean and distasteful, my main worry was that the goodwill he has built up in the community because of his stream would be ruined. I don't think Katu should never cast again or anything like that. I hope he continues to be active in the community, and I hope he can respect the players and fans a bit more.
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I really can't imagine getting this offended over someone else getting called a stream cheater in a somewhat joking way. Even if it wasn't a joke.. Let dragon fight his own battles. And if he wants help from the community then he can ask for it
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I can understand Katu’s stance in that he was simply trying to troll the chat after their initial negative reactions to him, but it should also be recognized that this is particularly unprofessional of him. While I do not expect my casters to be completely unbiased the allegations brought against Dragon made me really angry.
As an avid follower of both PlayhemTV and of Dragon’s streams Dragon is one of the most creative, forward thinking, goofy and for these reasons interesting players in the Starcraft II community to watch. Watching him play as Zerg I’ve seen him drop two hatcheries in to the main base of a Terran player in the first few minutes of a game to completely confound them. In response to people stream cheating him, I have seen him play complete non-builds to combat them and pull off incredibly strange wins.
His training and highly entertaining streaming show his intentions of redeeming himself in the eyes of the Starcraft II community. He seems determined to wipe the marks from his name and this along with his playful attitude and distinctly experimental style make him a favorite for many.
For these reasons, when Katu made allegations about the stream cheating there was such a strong reaction from the community I believe, Dragon has been working tirelessly to distance himself from the negativity that has surrounded his name. In doing so he has earned himself a fiercely loyal following.
While I do not believe Katu should be fired for his statements I would like to see a more sincere apology from him than “sorry guys I was trolling.” I believe he, like Dragon deserves a second chance. I am elated to see Ryan one of Playhem’s founders reacting so strongly and sincerely. For this reason I will continue to loyally follow Playhem in the future and I urge that no one lynch Katu for a mistake. His response was disappointing, but it was a lapse in judgement and he is still a well-intentioned Starcraft enthusiast like the rest of us. Let us not forget that.
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On February 29 2012 07:46 Oiseaux wrote:
Was it obvious Katu was trolling? Yes, even if his tone didn't convey it, the content made it obvious.
Should he have done it? No, it's a touchy subject in the community and he should learn to navigate social space a bit better.
Does he deserved to get ostracized for it? No, he deserves a chance to learn from this. Sadly it seems like the majority disagrees and that's who ultimately decides.
or a vocal minority, since its truthfully that the loudest minorities make the plans, and sometimes loud just means "we're the minority with the most money to give to you if you do as we ask". politics is politics, whether between governments and people or between businesses and people or people and people in 'civilian sector". Point is, its the vocal minority that actually makes all the rules because the majority doesn't care enough to voice their opinion, and don't believe they need to do so. If the majority really was after katu, this would be 100+ pages by now, not 30.
Also, Dragon is tied to Katu's fate. If katu isnt given a second chance I deny dragon being allowed it, since an actual cheater is far worse than a terrible joke maker.
can't the katu lynch mob consider that if Dragon did not have a past, Katu wouldn't have a leg to stand on? Lets think rationally, if Dragon never cheated, everyone would know FOR A FACT katu was joking/trolling, instead everyone gets huge amounts of butthurt over his comments, indicating that there is in fact some truth to his words, and therefore they do believe he's being serious.
q.e.d.
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Whats the big deal here?
Katu trolled a chat...what caster doesn't do that?
Every caster that I have watched (Bitterdam, Tastosis, HD/PU, Cats/Doa, Kaelaris, Khaldor, Robin/Kibblez/other playhem casters) has trolled a chat at some point.
If you are going to hold Katu to this magically high standard, then be fair and hold everyone to that standard.
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On February 29 2012 09:03 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:46 Oiseaux wrote:
Was it obvious Katu was trolling? Yes, even if his tone didn't convey it, the content made it obvious.
Should he have done it? No, it's a touchy subject in the community and he should learn to navigate social space a bit better.
Does he deserved to get ostracized for it? No, he deserves a chance to learn from this. Sadly it seems like the majority disagrees and that's who ultimately decides. or a vocal minority, since its truthfully that the loudest minorities make the plans, and sometimes loud just means "we're the minority with the most money to give to you if you do as we ask". politics is politics, whether between governments and people or between businesses and people or people and people in 'civilian sector". Point is, its the vocal minority that actually makes all the rules because the majority doesn't care enough to voice their opinion, and don't believe they need to do so. If the majority really was after katu, this would be 100+ pages by now, not 30. Also, Dragon is tied to Katu's fate. If katu isnt given a second chance I deny dragon being allowed it, since an actual cheater is far worse than a terrible joke maker.
Give it a week or until the next drama hits and nobody will even remember this.
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gotta love all the people bumping a thread that is going away to tell us all to stop talking about it... i did it back on page 16, and a good 25% of the responses since then have basically been:
"i don't know why it's a big deal. everyone should stop making a big deal"
which just bumps a thread with a sensationalist title which is just begging to be opened. rinse and repeat.
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On February 29 2012 09:04 Prplppleatr wrote:
Whats the big deal here?
Katu trolled a chat...what caster doesn't do that?
Every caster that I have watched (Bitterdam, Tastosis, HD/PU, Cats/Doa, Kaelaris, Khaldor, Robin/Kibblez/other playhem casters) has trolled a chat at some point.
If you are going to hold Katu to this magically high standard, then be fair and hold everyone to that standard.
He put a well known player's reputation in jeopardy.
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On February 28 2012 20:22 Angelbelow wrote:
Sounds like Bonk didnt share the views on Dragon. Makes your post a lot less credible considering you have 1 post and false information.
^ This. From the transcript he was trying to stop Katu and get him off the subject but Katu kept interrupting him and continuing to accuse Dragon of stream cheating with no proof at all.
I hope he gets fired and that Dragon accepts their offer of paid expenses to their Vegas event.
<3 Dragon man awesome streamer.
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Man I am amazed at how personally some people are taking this and blowing it up really big as well. I watched from like 3:45 till 4:25 and thought it was fully obvious they guy was trolling and joking around. I mean really, he starts off pretty off-handedly/jokeingly saying "I don't know if maybe he's taking a look at the stream"because Dragon doesn't open his wall when there's zerglings at his front (the implication was that he somehow knew roaches were inc) which really didn't follow from how the game was playing out. The problem really started after the game when Katu clearly looked at the chat defending Dragon from stream cheating and decided to Troll and keep joking about stream cheating (oh and yes Katu you DID in fact imply/claim he was stream cheating with that statement). Katu did not let up on the comments about it and pretty much dug himself into a hole, thats really all there was too it.
Was it unprofessional? Absolutely, especially the way he carried on about it and continued based on the fact it was getting a response in Chat (TROLL!). Was it disrespectful? Yes a little, it's never nice to accuse someone of cheating (though I never actually felt like he was accusing just kinda hinting at it and joking about it, was pretty clear there was no cheating). Does Katu deserve to lose his job and have the entirety of TL hate him? What? No, was just a stupid joke that went out of hand, but hopefully he learns to keep this sort of thing to his own personal casts not ones associated with any organization.
Idk, a lot of this feels like unnecessary drama. Just my 2 cents.
*PS: The fact that Dragon has a bit of a reputation for cheating in the past doesn't much change the fact that Katu went overboard for a professional cast.
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On February 29 2012 09:07 Tictock wrote:
*PS: The fact that Dragon has a bit of a reputation for cheating in the past doesn't much change the fact that Katu went overboard for a professional cast.
The fact that Dragon has a past reputation for cheating which he is now working very hard to make up for is the exact reason why the comments were too much.
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Who cares? Its a $75 daily tournament you don't have to pay to watch.
This isn't the GSL
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I think playhem needs to raise their Casting Team level up a notch. Not only just Katu's cast but also some of their other casters that come on the stream. One particular example was when GoSuPokebunny casting on Playhem of match between VTAvilo and another Zerg player. GoSuPokebunny used various extremely negative terms towards VTAvilo's play in front of 3000 viewers. It was so ridiculous that even after the match was over, GoSuPokebunny childishly posted comments on reddit to even further trash Avilo.
And in the following game, Avilo asked GoSuPokebunny to leave but Pokebunny refused and told Avilo to suck it up. It was just so unacceptable sometimes that the level of casters on Playhem is doing. Totally unacceptable and rude. Again, incidents like these just shows how unprofessional some of these people are...
Totally ridiculous...
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Extremely unprofessional and unbelievably rude. I think Katu shouldn't be able to cast for playhem for a little, unless i read wrond and he is taking a break. and also to talk about dragons stay on Slayers and why he departed from them. Unbelievable when you talk about something you know absolutely nothing about
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i think it was quite obvious that katu was just trolling, but damaging a player's image in front of thousands of audiences is not cool. i don't think he should lose his job just because of this, but i hope no caster makes this kind of stupid joke anymore. it just doesn't feel right as a player to join a tournament knowing that the caster representing the organization is a douche and will disrespect you in front of your fans.
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EPT
