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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:12 synapse wrote: I think the PvT graph is quite telling. Deathball = very strong apparently :D It's also telling how very strong mid game MMM pushes are. | ||
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
Then again, I don't know how easy that data would be to get a hold of. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:12 synapse wrote: I think the PvT graph is quite telling. Deathball = very strong apparently :D Terran and Zerg all-ins pretty strong from what we can see also, especially 5-15 mins. :D | ||
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
On February 26 2012 23:31 thezanursic wrote: Is this enough evidence for terran to get a strong lategame buff and get the snipe reverted and get an early game nerf? Lol. This graph isnt implying that anything is overpowered, its only showing how winrates fluctuate based on game length, which they always will because it is impossible to balance a matchup at all moments in the game. The tools they have (adjusting unit statistics etc.) dont allow for such precision and it would make for an incredibly boring game if at no point was any race at a disadvantage or advantage. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On February 26 2012 23:32 Aunvilgod wrote: I think doing this for the korean server would be great for gaining information for balancing. I agree completely, but unless Playhem starts doing KR dailies, we will not get enough replays out of korea, since pro-houses tend to not release them and ESV weekly doesnt release them either afaik. Maybe playhem info should be limited to top 16 players in a daily, to weed out the lower tier players. | ||
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Geiko
France2004 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:12 synapse wrote: I think the PvT graph is quite telling. Deathball = very strong apparently :D I think the PvT graph is quite telling. MM pushes and shift queued drop =very strong apparently :D | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On February 26 2012 23:37 XenoX101 wrote: Lol. This graph isnt implying that anything is overpowered, its only showing how winrates fluctuate based on game length, which they always will because it is impossible to balance a matchup at all moments in the game. The tools they have (adjusting unit statistics etc.) dont allow for such precision and it would make for an incredibly boring game if at no point was any race at a disadvantage or advantage. Ideally, it's better to have a game in which each matchup is pretty even on average with game length. Small fluctuations are fine, but what you see here are huge. As for it being OK for the matchup having different swings for each race at different moments in the game, imagine this scenario, for example: PvT, let's say, is impossible for Terrans after the 10 minute mark. Therefore, they always all-in before then, or they die. That all-in has an approximately 50% chance of working. According to Blizzard, that is balanced and the matchup is excellent. But we both know that it must be completely broken. So while it is fine for there to be minor fluctuations in winrate per game length, what we are seeing at the moment is a massive change in winrate over time, which is definitely not good, particularly in PvT. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On February 26 2012 23:49 Chaggi wrote: I guess that confirms what I've always thought about Terran matchups, it's interesting to see that the longest games in TvP are relatively balanced. I'm curious to see what the really really really late replays in TvP were just so I can check them out. It's these kind of game where the map is almost mined out, army supply get back to the 100 range, with low amount of tech units. MMM get a lot more efficient in these scenarios. | ||
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Andreas
Norway214 Posts
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Akta
447 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:25 _scout wrote: Looks like it's based on 5 minute intervals which means that information about what happens between the data points, like more exact timings is not in the graphs. So we can't know if 50% happens at 16 or 19 minutes and the lines might even intersect multiple times between 15 and 20 minutes.I'm really interested in what major things occur where the graph lines intersect. Specifically, in ZvT the ~18 minute mark looks like a significant change occurs. I'd have to watch some replays of it but maybe that is when zerg typically gets their brood lords out. Or perhaps the shift is reflective of the cumulative effect of 5-8 minutes of mutalisk harassment? What about TvP, is that first intersection when terran has their MMM rocking and rolling? What is that second intersection? Does protoss now have templar AND colossi? I think this could be revealing of some very typical timings in the current metagame, and more importantly insight on how to deal with it as each race. Always fun seeing some data but would have been nice with shorter intervals. | ||
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:12 synapse wrote: Deathball = very strong apparently :D I think the opposite actually. Terran midgame is very strong so most terrans play for the midgame. It's often win or lose at that point, but if it's a loss for the terran, then the game drags on to late game before protoss can actually close it out. It's like in PvZ shakuras where protoss go for 2 base timing attack and when it fails, turtle up and go for late game. But zerg should usually win that late game. Important thing is that zerg can't just counterattack to immediately end the game at the point when they've gained a huge advantage. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On February 27 2012 00:12 Liquid`NonY wrote: I think the opposite actually. Terran midgame is very strong so most terrans play for the midgame. It's often win or lose at that point, but if it's a loss for the terran, then the game drags on to late game before protoss can actually close it out. It's like in PvZ shakuras where protoss go for 2 base timing attack and when it fails, turtle up and go for late game. But zerg should usually win that late game. Important thing is that zerg can't just counterattack to immediately end the game at the point when they've gained a huge advantage. protoss do the same in early game versus terran with their 2base semi-all-in rush before stim/medivacs. can a terran instantly close out a game after successfully defending a 2base blink rush or a warp prism rush? or a probe-cutting 6gate.... lmao not likely. what's more.... when the protoss drags it to the late game, the terran can instantly lose all advantage and actually fall miles behind in a nano second just from taking a single storm. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:05 Energizer wrote: what I wasen't expecting was the pvz graph. Honestly expected protoss to be in a bigger lead by around the 25+ minute mark, yet stays relatively even up until the point where there is insignificant data to draw any conclusions. Despite the complaints from Zerg players, PvZ has been a Zerg favored matchup for awhile according to the win rate charts (http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS), almost 60/40 now, with many months of 45/55. So with that win rate data in mind, you wouldn't expect to see Protoss dominating any period of the game significantly, since Zerg simply wins more. | ||
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Andreas
Norway214 Posts
On February 27 2012 00:12 Liquid`NonY wrote: I think the opposite actually. Terran midgame is very strong so most terrans play for the midgame. It's often win or lose at that point, but if it's a loss for the terran, then the game drags on to late game before protoss can actually close it out. That seems counter-intuitive to me - it always seems to me like if Protoss loses the mid-game battle (without too much of a margin), he can fall back on upgraded chargelots being very effective in small numbers and turtle on 3 bases (depending on the map, I suppose) until 3/3 before pushing out to take a 4th. In theory, forward pylons/warp prisms should allow Protoss more than any other race to capitalize on advantages in army size. | ||
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