|
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now.
|
I don't think you can tell anything from these stats due to not knowing the relative player skill of each game. I wouldn't draw anything from this. Have equally skilled players play 500 games, and then take those statistics to use to make an educated judgment.
|
I see a lot of people misinterpreting these graphs or zeroing on one particular, less important detail with tunnel vision towards everything else. I think there's a few more graphs that would be helpful in combining the winrates in each window with the number of games in each window to show how significant each deviation is. Is there a place I can see the raw numbers in each point rather than picking them out myself?
|
I think it's easy to overlook what is going on BEFORE each change in win timings.
Look at TvP.
Assume all matches where protoss wins before 10 minutes are 4 gates. Then you could assume there SHOULD be a an immediate drop off where T is ahead, not due to 'balance' or 'racial mechanics' but because that's when protoss lose the game when they fail to win with a 4 gate.
Then you can assume all non 4 gate PvT the terran is doing a 111 1 or 2 base variant all in. After that you would expect a spike in protoss wins. Terran also do a lot of drop play at this point which either wins them the game or they lose a bunch of units. You can reasonably expect protoss win rates to spike after this as everyone who cocked up a 111 or lost all their medivacs with failed drops to just lose.
Then you see the protoss death ball being stronger than the terran bio-ball at end game.
|
|
|
On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now.
You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works.
If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops.
And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff.
I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod!
|
On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now.
I agree alot with what you say. Generealyl I feel like well designed units = Units that requires micro to be efficient, and still allows the opponent to "re-micro against it". Lack of micro should be a bit forgiveable as well as you shouldn't instalose the game if you make 1 micro mistake.
Making emp more forgiveable and collosus and chargelots harder to micro would seem like a good choice.
When that is said I feel like collosus/ht play is kinda supoed to beat bio (at least in late game), and then mech is supposed to be able to beat that toss army.
|
On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod!
Colossus don't come from gateways 
Tanks do splash damage. Hellions do splash damage. Raven HSM does splash. If splash damage was the most important factor then these units would be used more in the MU.
I'd counter 'manual charge' with 'manual healing from medivac'. Brilliant!
I'm willing to bet Sjow lost the units in the drops while taking 2 more bases. Of course the 2 base protoss, who has used all his resources to that point on his army, took his bigger army and killed the production facilities. That's called 'making the right decision'.
Colossus require charge up? Are you fucking insane? There are so many problems with this.
|
On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod!
I think the reason why non-Protoss hate the warp tech upgrade is because at the most fundamental level it negates defender's advantage. It doesn't matter whether warp tech is "overpowered" or "underpowered"; it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP).
I agree with you that at this stage of the game it's impossible to remove warp tech from the game. But that doesn't mean it's untouchable. Here's some ideas that I think would be interesting to try in HotS:
1. Move Warpgate Technology from Cybernetics Core to Twilight Council
2. Move Charge from Twilight Council to Cybernetics Core
3. Increase the cost of Warpgate Technology from 50/50 to 200/200
4. Decrease the cost of Charge from 200/200 to 50/50
=====
5. Increase the Transform Gateway into Warpgate timer from 10 sec to 20 sec
6. Decrease the Transform Warpgate into Gateway timer from 10 sec to 0 sec
7. Increase the warpgate cooldown of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec
8. Decrease the gateway build time of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec
9. Disable the Transform Warpgate into Gateway ability while the Warpgate is on warpin cooldown
|
|
|
haha, the zvt graph is an incredibly accurate view of my own zvt games ;p if the game is shorter than 15 mins, you bet your ass i lost
|
On April 03 2012 11:38 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod! I think the reason why non-Protoss hate the warp tech upgrade is because at the most fundamental level it negates defender's advantage. It doesn't matter whether warp tech is "overpowered" or "underpowered"; it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I agree with you that at this stage of the game it's impossible to remove warp tech from the game. But that doesn't mean it's untouchable. Here's some ideas that I think would be interesting to try in HotS: 1. Move Warpgate Technology from Cybernetics Core to Twilight Council 2. Move Charge from Twilight Council to Cybernetics Core 3. Increase the cost of Warpgate Technology from 50/50 to 200/200 4. Decrease the cost of Charge from 200/200 to 50/50 ===== 5. Increase the Transform Gateway into Warpgate timer from 10 sec to 20 sec 6. Decrease the Transform Warpgate into Gateway timer from 10 sec to 0 sec 7. Increase the warpgate cooldown of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 8. Decrease the gateway build time of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 9. Disable the Transform Warpgate into Gateway ability while the Warpgate is on warpin cooldown
Taken all together I think these are ok. I'd also argue for KA to come back but only apply to HT that are produced from a gateway, not a warp gate.
5 Might be too much. 15 sec would probably be enough. I like the idea of switching over gateway to warpgate as an emergency measure.
Proxy 2 gate would be REALLY hard to zerg to deal with.
I think FFE would disappear over night and instead 2 gate charge would be the primary opener. Chargelots sentry is REALLY strong in the early game.
Good players will have some gates on WP for emergencies and some gateways for faster massing army which would be a really interesting balancing act.
|
On April 03 2012 11:38 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod! I think the reason why non-Protoss hate the warp tech upgrade is because at the most fundamental level it negates defender's advantage. It doesn't matter whether warp tech is "overpowered" or "underpowered"; it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I agree with you that at this stage of the game it's impossible to remove warp tech from the game. But that doesn't mean it's untouchable. Here's some ideas that I think would be interesting to try in HotS: 1. Move Warpgate Technology from Cybernetics Core to Twilight Council 2. Move Charge from Twilight Council to Cybernetics Core 3. Increase the cost of Warpgate Technology from 50/50 to 200/200 4. Decrease the cost of Charge from 200/200 to 50/50 ===== 5. Increase the Transform Gateway into Warpgate timer from 10 sec to 20 sec 6. Decrease the Transform Warpgate into Gateway timer from 10 sec to 0 sec 7. Increase the warpgate cooldown of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 8. Decrease the gateway build time of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 9. Disable the Transform Warpgate into Gateway ability while the Warpgate is on warpin cooldown
They would have to change faar more than that. Seeing as the new nexus-energy-cannon doesn't touch armored units, it would be 100% impossible to hold any kind of roach rush/proxy marauder rush. They would have to make dropping a research as you wouldn't be able to have warp-tech in the midgame, and you'd have to also pick between warp tech and blink, making dropping even better. And then ontop of that, robo would become shit, twilight would be the only option. And Protoss would have absolutely no offensive potential until they've got warp tech researched. Maybe these changes could do if they removed OC/PF and Queens.
it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP).
I did not get that part. You're bascally a terran calling Protoss matchups boring? I think PvT/PvZ/PvP is a lot more fun than any of the Terran matchups. That's why I play Protoss. I don't find the warp-tech mechanic boring, I find it fun because you can get really slim timing attacks, especially in PvP/PvZ. You find the warp-tech mechanics boring, so you play Terran. Not sure what the problem is here. You don't like playing against it, is that what you meant? Yea, I don't like playing against drops either. Or broodlords. They're still important to the game and they're not going anywhere, just like the warp-tech mechanic.
|
On April 03 2012 13:59 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 11:38 RoboBob wrote:On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod! I think the reason why non-Protoss hate the warp tech upgrade is because at the most fundamental level it negates defender's advantage. It doesn't matter whether warp tech is "overpowered" or "underpowered"; it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I agree with you that at this stage of the game it's impossible to remove warp tech from the game. But that doesn't mean it's untouchable. Here's some ideas that I think would be interesting to try in HotS: 1. Move Warpgate Technology from Cybernetics Core to Twilight Council 2. Move Charge from Twilight Council to Cybernetics Core 3. Increase the cost of Warpgate Technology from 50/50 to 200/200 4. Decrease the cost of Charge from 200/200 to 50/50 ===== 5. Increase the Transform Gateway into Warpgate timer from 10 sec to 20 sec 6. Decrease the Transform Warpgate into Gateway timer from 10 sec to 0 sec 7. Increase the warpgate cooldown of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 8. Decrease the gateway build time of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 9. Disable the Transform Warpgate into Gateway ability while the Warpgate is on warpin cooldown They would have to change faar more than that. Seeing as the new nexus-energy-cannon doesn't touch armored units, it would be 100% impossible to hold any kind of roach rush/proxy marauder rush. They would have to make dropping a research as you wouldn't be able to have warp-tech in the midgame, and you'd have to also pick between warp tech and blink, making dropping even better. And then ontop of that, robo would become shit, twilight would be the only option. And Protoss would have absolutely no offensive potential until they've got warp tech researched. Maybe these changes could do if they removed OC/PF and Queens. Show nested quote + it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I did not get that part. You're bascally a terran calling Protoss matchups boring? I think PvT/PvZ/PvP is a lot more fun than any of the Terran matchups. That's why I play Protoss. I don't find the warp-tech mechanic boring, I find it fun because you can get really slim timing attacks, especially in PvP/PvZ. You find the warp-tech mechanics boring, so you play Terran. Not sure what the problem is here. You don't like playing against it, is that what you meant? Yea, I don't like playing against drops either. Or broodlords. They're still important to the game and they're not going anywhere, just like the warp-tech mechanic.
sentry chargelot would hold that fine...
|
i want to know the longest games played lets see em
edit2: apparently i dont know wtf im talking about
|
On April 03 2012 14:44 SlapMySalami wrote:
i want to know the longest games played lets see em
edit: @xHPx_sc2 i thought blizzard was removing warp gates in hots
ill google for a source now im not sure where i heard it and im also not sure if it's true or if they're going back on their word or something like that
They never said this.
|
On April 03 2012 14:22 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 13:59 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 03 2012 11:38 RoboBob wrote:On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod! I think the reason why non-Protoss hate the warp tech upgrade is because at the most fundamental level it negates defender's advantage. It doesn't matter whether warp tech is "overpowered" or "underpowered"; it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I agree with you that at this stage of the game it's impossible to remove warp tech from the game. But that doesn't mean it's untouchable. Here's some ideas that I think would be interesting to try in HotS: 1. Move Warpgate Technology from Cybernetics Core to Twilight Council 2. Move Charge from Twilight Council to Cybernetics Core 3. Increase the cost of Warpgate Technology from 50/50 to 200/200 4. Decrease the cost of Charge from 200/200 to 50/50 ===== 5. Increase the Transform Gateway into Warpgate timer from 10 sec to 20 sec 6. Decrease the Transform Warpgate into Gateway timer from 10 sec to 0 sec 7. Increase the warpgate cooldown of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 8. Decrease the gateway build time of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 9. Disable the Transform Warpgate into Gateway ability while the Warpgate is on warpin cooldown They would have to change faar more than that. Seeing as the new nexus-energy-cannon doesn't touch armored units, it would be 100% impossible to hold any kind of roach rush/proxy marauder rush. They would have to make dropping a research as you wouldn't be able to have warp-tech in the midgame, and you'd have to also pick between warp tech and blink, making dropping even better. And then ontop of that, robo would become shit, twilight would be the only option. And Protoss would have absolutely no offensive potential until they've got warp tech researched. Maybe these changes could do if they removed OC/PF and Queens. it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I did not get that part. You're bascally a terran calling Protoss matchups boring? I think PvT/PvZ/PvP is a lot more fun than any of the Terran matchups. That's why I play Protoss. I don't find the warp-tech mechanic boring, I find it fun because you can get really slim timing attacks, especially in PvP/PvZ. You find the warp-tech mechanics boring, so you play Terran. Not sure what the problem is here. You don't like playing against it, is that what you meant? Yea, I don't like playing against drops either. Or broodlords. They're still important to the game and they're not going anywhere, just like the warp-tech mechanic. sentry chargelot would hold that fine...
No, would definetly not. You're going to have almost no units at all. 1gate exp will disappear while the terran can still ffe and feel even safer than before. Your first 3 units comes 40seconds too late, charge does not make up for that by any means. Charge doesn't make a difference if you don't suck shit with your force fields anyways. There is literally nothing you would hold with this.
|
On April 03 2012 17:34 xHPx_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 14:22 Kharnage wrote:On April 03 2012 13:59 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On April 03 2012 11:38 RoboBob wrote:On April 03 2012 10:13 xHPx_sc2 wrote:On March 12 2012 01:32 Sovern wrote:
EMP should do AOE over time simliar to storm and emp shouldnt drain energy. Just imo. As of right now I'd have to say Templars > Ghosts as templars can even transform into a T3 unit that hard counters the fuck out of any bio unit and getting a ball of bio units stormed is not even remotely close to a toss getting a ball of their units emped, storm stacks, emp only drains shields which are really only auxiliary to the toss's armor/health until they start to upgrade their shields.
TvP would be fixed if warp tech was removed and archon required templar tech but they would only be produced out of gateways. Right now Toss has too many advantages over terran once that toss has their tech going (warp gates, templar storms into Archons, Chargelots, and Collosus).
IMO charge also shouldnt be auto cast and should require a click just like stim does, collosus should also have to charge up before using their dual lancer attack simliar to carriers this way toss has to be more careful about engaging and it would all make the toss require more micro which would even the field up when it comes to TvP and possibly even PvZ.
I just watched a TvP of Sjow on his stream and he dropped the hell out of the toss and did a ton of economic damage yet he still lost to a 1a toss that just massed up chargelots/archons and a few collosus on 2 bases while sjow was on 4. It just goes to show that TvP and SC2 as a whole is in fact imbalanced and im even considering making a pro mod for SC2 and calling it SC2.5 or something of the sorts that will make all of the races require micro/macro instead of this 1a unbalanced bullshit that blizzards seems to deem balanced and fair.
So in terms of splash damage TvP
Terran Bio units that do splash:
Ghosts (only on shields)
Toss Gateway units that do splash
Archons
HT's
Collosus
Dont you guys see a problem here? Hell, maybe Blizzard could even think about giving terran a unit that does splash damage that starts out with a decent amout of armor. Something simliar to the firebat and make ghosts EMP actually do AOE damage over a period of time simliar to storm and I'd be happy for now. You do realize with all these toss nerfs, they'd have to buff the zealot damage by like 100% to make up for it? I don't think you understand how balance works. If the stats are ~50/50, the matchup is balanced. You cannot just remove the warp tech upgrade. That's like me saying "hey so i don't like orbital commands/pfs. Remove them, let terran use command centers only". No more scans, no more mules, no more supply drops. And your "charge shouldn't be auto cast" argument is so dumb. Should you hotkey every zealot to 1 hotkey each? I'm afraid this game doesn't have 50 hotkeys yet, so this would not be possible. You need a target in order you use charge. You don't press charge and watch your zealots charge stuff. I don't think you realize just how f***ing biased you are ^^ But go ahead. Make your "pro-mod" where Terrans can't lose. I'm sure it'll be a very popular mod! I think the reason why non-Protoss hate the warp tech upgrade is because at the most fundamental level it negates defender's advantage. It doesn't matter whether warp tech is "overpowered" or "underpowered"; it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I agree with you that at this stage of the game it's impossible to remove warp tech from the game. But that doesn't mean it's untouchable. Here's some ideas that I think would be interesting to try in HotS: 1. Move Warpgate Technology from Cybernetics Core to Twilight Council 2. Move Charge from Twilight Council to Cybernetics Core 3. Increase the cost of Warpgate Technology from 50/50 to 200/200 4. Decrease the cost of Charge from 200/200 to 50/50 ===== 5. Increase the Transform Gateway into Warpgate timer from 10 sec to 20 sec 6. Decrease the Transform Warpgate into Gateway timer from 10 sec to 0 sec 7. Increase the warpgate cooldown of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 8. Decrease the gateway build time of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, HTs, and DTs by 8 sec 9. Disable the Transform Warpgate into Gateway ability while the Warpgate is on warpin cooldown They would have to change faar more than that. Seeing as the new nexus-energy-cannon doesn't touch armored units, it would be 100% impossible to hold any kind of roach rush/proxy marauder rush. They would have to make dropping a research as you wouldn't be able to have warp-tech in the midgame, and you'd have to also pick between warp tech and blink, making dropping even better. And then ontop of that, robo would become shit, twilight would be the only option. And Protoss would have absolutely no offensive potential until they've got warp tech researched. Maybe these changes could do if they removed OC/PF and Queens. it's more fun to play a game of tug-of-war (TvT, TvZ, ZvZ) than it is to play a game of chicken (PvT, PvZ, PvP). I did not get that part. You're bascally a terran calling Protoss matchups boring? I think PvT/PvZ/PvP is a lot more fun than any of the Terran matchups. That's why I play Protoss. I don't find the warp-tech mechanic boring, I find it fun because you can get really slim timing attacks, especially in PvP/PvZ. You find the warp-tech mechanics boring, so you play Terran. Not sure what the problem is here. You don't like playing against it, is that what you meant? Yea, I don't like playing against drops either. Or broodlords. They're still important to the game and they're not going anywhere, just like the warp-tech mechanic. sentry chargelot would hold that fine... No, would definetly not. You're going to have almost no units at all. 1gate exp will disappear while the terran can still ffe and feel even safer than before. Your first 3 units comes 40seconds too late, charge does not make up for that by any means. Charge doesn't make a difference if you don't suck shit with your force fields anyways. There is literally nothing you would hold with this.
But your first 3 units are coming out 18 seconds faster as it is. With the reduction in unit build time from a gateway what you 'know' about the size of a protoss army at that time is just wrong. Getting 2 fast gateways would provide you with a hell of a lot more firepower now, allowing you to skip charge if you're going sentry heavy, as you pointed out, it's not required if you have decent FF, OR you can go zealot stalker with charge and monster it up. Early MM pushes would be in terrible shape vs a fast chargelot stalker force. As for punishing a gasless expand you can still do that with a +1 ar immortal bust.
|
The solution is quite simple keep everything the exact same, and make chargelots have increased shields while having decrease hulls. This creates a situation whereby emp, does more damage like storm does to terran and therefore protoss has to worry about losing their zealots rather than just using them as a wall of damage that rapes everything. This way, if they see a ghost they have to split their zealots, and they cant just 1 a zealot archon for the win, they'd have to include sentries for forcefields and get good storms off as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
