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Keyboard infested terran Trick

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 15:39:49
February 18 2012 14:39 GMT
#1
I think I broke starcraft 2.

I tried binding left click to a button on my keyboard, when holding shift this is kind of like the mouse wheel trick, except this way its much faster.

I made a video of me demonstrating.

if you excuse my horrible voice and the hong kong city streets theme from Deus Ex in the background (someone will reinstall it) you can see this in action.



I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this, if nothing else It can be used with shift moving drones etc to get a better APM, but I think its more usefull than just that.

edit: this is the same as the mouse scroll trick (which was talked about in SoTG) just this is much faster and just needs to hold down a button, its the same thing just with F3 instead of the mouse wheel, so its technically legal (I think, I know you are allowed to install drivers, and I think 1 to 1 button changes are allowed), but I dont think it should be.
AmericanUmlaut
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2577 Posts
February 18 2012 14:40 GMT
#2
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?
The frumious Bandersnatch
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 14:41 GMT
#3
On February 18 2012 23:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?


its the same as with mousewheel, I did it in the drivers, I think thats allowed in tournaments.
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 15:05:15
February 18 2012 14:46 GMT
#4
That is pretty funny. See Blizzard, that happens if you don't build in a delay for holding down a button.
But good job revealing it.
Binding left/right-click to an actualy keyboard button is pretty legit imo. The problem here resides within the engine blizz use to captcher and translate keystrokes.
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Mauldo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States750 Posts
February 18 2012 14:57 GMT
#5
"My drivers let me do it so I should be able to cut corners that Blizzard obviously never intended for me to cut" is one of the worst excuses I've ever heard about this whole "rebinding left click" business. The community is always bitching about how easy SC2 is and how micro is lacking in the game, but then shit like this pops up and the community supports it. If SC2 doesn't have a "Rebind ____" option in the hotkeys menu, then it shouldn't be allowed to be rebound. That simple.
Pusekatten
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway234 Posts
February 18 2012 15:00 GMT
#6
I think it will be illegal in tournaments, because you have to use a third party software to make it work (your mouse driver). If you can make it happen without drivers and only with standard windows control panel and SC2, it would be a question about ethics.
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
February 18 2012 15:26 GMT
#7
Okay so untill now I was to lazy to look into it.
You don't actually change the binding. What happens is that a makro is recodring (mouse up; mouse down) and this makro is played when button X is pressed. In Logitech SetPoint you have the actual option if the makro should be repeated on "button X pressed".
I guess it is the same with Razer products just that you don't create the makro the obvious way, the software does it for you.
All in all; it is a makro. Makes it pretty easy to rate.
Allow makros = bad.
Allow 2 Button markos = still bad.
Don't allow makros = guud.
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 15:31:47
February 18 2012 15:30 GMT
#8
On February 19 2012 00:26 bluQ wrote:
Okay so untill now I was to lazy to look into it.
You don't actually change the binding. What happens is that a makro is recodring (mouse up; mouse down) and this makro is played when button X is pressed. In Logitech SetPoint you have the actual option if the makro should be repeated on "button X pressed".
I guess it is the same with Razer products just that you don't create the makro the obvious way, the software does it for you.
All in all; it is a makro. Makes it pretty easy to rate.
Allow makros = bad.
Allow 2 Button markos = still bad.
Don't allow makros = guud.


actually I just changed my F3 button to click and turned the delay off in my keyboard settings, its not a macro, but it still requires using a driver.

someone in a tournament did this with the mouse scroll in a tournament (I forget who) and it was talked about on SoTG, this is the same just even faster
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 15:44:35
February 18 2012 15:33 GMT
#9
On February 18 2012 23:57 Mauldo wrote:
"My drivers let me do it so I should be able to cut corners that Blizzard obviously never intended for me to cut" is one of the worst excuses I've ever heard about this whole "rebinding left click" business. The community is always bitching about how easy SC2 is and how micro is lacking in the game, but then shit like this pops up and the community supports it. If SC2 doesn't have a "Rebind ____" option in the hotkeys menu, then it shouldn't be allowed to be rebound. That simple.


I don't think it's that obvious. Droppng infested terrans is an awful chore that often doesnt work right (if you have a group of infestors, half are burrowed, half are not, go ahead, try and do the shift queue move-drop trick).

The fact is the whole system is not good. Its not about "not having micro opportunities", its having to click literally 40-50 times to launch an attack which might barely do anything not making any sense whatsoever. 10 infestors should not take 40 clicks to be effective.

Stephano uses the scroll wheel stuff pretty blatantly.
Hulavuta
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1252 Posts
February 18 2012 15:34 GMT
#10
On February 19 2012 00:00 Pusekatten wrote:
I think it will be illegal in tournaments, because you have to use a third party software to make it work (your mouse driver). If you can make it happen without drivers and only with standard windows control panel and SC2, it would be a question about ethics.


Tournaments allow you to use your mouse drivers. They might ban a specific feature, but a mouse driver is no way a third party program.
Done with Team Liquid for a while. Don't expect to find me here.
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 15:35 GMT
#11
I dont agree that IT and Snipe is really micro, Is the micro in this game really just clicking the mouse fast?
Funguuuuu
Profile Joined July 2011
United States198 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 15:38:02
February 18 2012 15:36 GMT
#12
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 00:26 bluQ wrote:
Okay so untill now I was to lazy to look into it.
You don't actually change the binding. What happens is that a makro is recodring (mouse up; mouse down) and this makro is played when button X is pressed. In Logitech SetPoint you have the actual option if the makro should be repeated on "button X pressed".
I guess it is the same with Razer products just that you don't create the makro the obvious way, the software does it for you.
All in all; it is a makro. Makes it pretty easy to rate.
Allow makros = bad.
Allow 2 Button markos = still bad.
Don't allow makros = guud.



actually I just changed my F3 button to click and turned the delay off in my keyboard settings, its not a macro, but it still requires using a driver.

someone in a tournament did this with the mouse scroll in a tournament (I forget who) and it was talked about on SoTG, this is the same just even faster

No, I think you're mistaken, they mentioned that Morrow did this on ladder a while back, but he didn't do it in any tournaments because he thought it wouldn't be allowed.
The night is dark and full of Terrans
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 15:39 GMT
#13
On February 19 2012 00:36 Funguuuuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 00:26 bluQ wrote:
Okay so untill now I was to lazy to look into it.
You don't actually change the binding. What happens is that a makro is recodring (mouse up; mouse down) and this makro is played when button X is pressed. In Logitech SetPoint you have the actual option if the makro should be repeated on "button X pressed".
I guess it is the same with Razer products just that you don't create the makro the obvious way, the software does it for you.
All in all; it is a makro. Makes it pretty easy to rate.
Allow makros = bad.
Allow 2 Button markos = still bad.
Don't allow makros = guud.



actually I just changed my F3 button to click and turned the delay off in my keyboard settings, its not a macro, but it still requires using a driver.

someone in a tournament did this with the mouse scroll in a tournament (I forget who) and it was talked about on SoTG, this is the same just even faster

No, I think you're mistaken, they mentioned that Morrow did this on ladder a while back, but he didn't do it in any tournaments because he thought it wouldn't be allowed.


ok, but I thought 1-1 button changes on drivers were allowed at tournaments? I know your allowed to install drivers.
ManofWax
Profile Joined June 2011
Italy12 Posts
February 18 2012 15:41 GMT
#14
On February 18 2012 23:41 Buzerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 23:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?


its the same as with mousewheel, I did it in the drivers, I think thats allowed in tournaments.


Drivers are still "third part software". If they are not macro will be legal
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 15:45 GMT
#15
On February 19 2012 00:41 ManofWax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 23:41 Buzerio wrote:
On February 18 2012 23:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?


its the same as with mousewheel, I did it in the drivers, I think thats allowed in tournaments.


Drivers are still "third part software". If they are not macro will be legal


from the GSL rules when it was announced


- Players must bring their own equipment (Keyboard, Mouse, Mouse Pad, Headset, Mouse Driver) and ID.

so you are allowed drivers, Im not sure if this has changed but it was said that you are allowed to use drivers at tournaments on SoTG and they do have first hand experience. im not 100% sure tho.
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 15:52:54
February 18 2012 15:51 GMT
#16
btw if anyone is interested the average APM on that video is 1.5k and it peaks at well over 10k.

that's considerably better than Flash's apm, also, I think this should be banned, if it is legal atm, which it isnt really clear either way (and also needs to be stopped on ladder aswell).
ManofWax
Profile Joined June 2011
Italy12 Posts
February 18 2012 15:53 GMT
#17
The problem is a lot of moder mouse "drivers" are in fact full-fledged configuration programs which permits the user to create macro and rebiding keys...
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
February 18 2012 15:56 GMT
#18
On February 19 2012 00:41 ManofWax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 23:41 Buzerio wrote:
On February 18 2012 23:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?


its the same as with mousewheel, I did it in the drivers, I think thats allowed in tournaments.


Drivers are still "third part software". If they are not macro will be legal

Mouse driver is legal for sure.
Deathadder for example doesn't have a on-the-fly DPI changer, you need the driver to change it.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
naut1c
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria100 Posts
February 18 2012 15:56 GMT
#19
blizzard should develop a maximum frequency that is as high as a human beeing can possibly click (=lower than mousewheel)
Pusekatten
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway234 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 16:34:48
February 18 2012 16:34 GMT
#20
On February 19 2012 00:56 naut1c wrote:
blizzard should develop a maximum frequency that is as high as a human beeing can possibly click (=lower than mousewheel)

I wont say its a bad idea, but its not optimal.
The way I would view this would be something like the snipe nerf blizzard announced, making it 25+25 vs Psionic instead of something like 50-25 vs Massive like qxc said on SoTG. Or like SOPA, the idea and intent behind it is good, but its far from optimal.

Edit: typo
FakePseudo
Profile Joined January 2012
Belgium716 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 17:04:33
February 18 2012 17:03 GMT
#21
Third party software is of course accepted...Up to now, what blizzard forbade was to bind two or more keys (or actions) to one and only (like pressing s to build supply instead of b s). So the question is: do you think clicking multiple times (spamming clicks) should be considered as multiple different actions or just one? Now im surprised nobody got caught with the scroll wheel trick cuz normally blizzard sees it when one action is done to regularly, to fast or at mathematically equal time and thats how they catch other types of macros.
I am the 0.0007% /forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17208334|| Big Black Women Vocals Is Like Porn to my Ears ||San Antonio Spurs|Boston Celtics||#1EZToss Hater;
naut1c
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria100 Posts
February 18 2012 17:06 GMT
#22
On February 19 2012 01:34 Pusekatten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 00:56 naut1c wrote:
blizzard should develop a maximum frequency that is as high as a human beeing can possibly click (=lower than mousewheel)

I wont say its a bad idea, but its not optimal.
The way I would view this would be something like the snipe nerf blizzard announced, making it 25+25 vs Psionic instead of something like 50-25 vs Massive like qxc said on SoTG. Or like SOPA, the idea and intent behind it is good, but its far from optimal.

Edit: typo


what? infested terrans / snipes, are not to supposed to be spammed as with this trick/mwheel-trick. using this trick changes the actual balance of the game... it has been figured out, but it has to be stopped. nobody will notice any change, if there was just a frequence limitation... you could still 1. shift+move, 2. shift+many-click spamm infested terrrans, but you cannot do it immediately
Northern_iight
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada363 Posts
February 18 2012 17:17 GMT
#23
did blizzard ban macro keys when it first came out? No. People started to abuse them and it showed to be very unfair to players that weren't using them. Then they banned it.

This will probably go down the same route. I'm sure blizzard to do what somebody mentioned earlier. Cap the APM to what the human can click fastest. Or just not allow right/left mouse clicks to be bind anywhere else. E-sports is still young and is ever changing. New things will pop up often and it will be fixed. This was obviously not meant to be in SC2 when the developers made this game.
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 18:04 GMT
#24
On February 19 2012 02:03 FakePseudo wrote:
Third party software is of course accepted...Up to now, what blizzard forbade was to bind two or more keys (or actions) to one and only (like pressing s to build supply instead of b s). So the question is: do you think clicking multiple times (spamming clicks) should be considered as multiple different actions or just one? Now im surprised nobody got caught with the scroll wheel trick cuz normally blizzard sees it when one action is done to regularly, to fast or at mathematically equal time and thats how they catch other types of macros.


but this isnt a macro, this is a switch of a button on the keyboard and turning the refresh rate up to the max
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
February 18 2012 18:10 GMT
#25
Mind blown. Seriously, an even faster way? Lol at the force field spams :o
This is surely gonna get patched, or banned from tournaments, but it's really funny nonetheless
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
February 18 2012 18:26 GMT
#26
well switching keys is allowed and it seems blizzard left this in on purpose (that there is no delay on holding a key), I think that was done to optimize the player control. holding stop pressed,while targetfireing. So i don't think it should be removed as it really helps to not clump your units. (well we are still far away from using everything sc2 allows us to do microwise)
But this doesn't apply to the mouse keys (never tested it though ^^;; ). So you could argue that rebinding the left click to the keyboard is not itended, as it changes the function and can't be done ingame.

Turning off things that windows or drivers do is okay for me, but adding things with windows/drivers etc shouldn't be done as it messes up the balancing of the game.
If the keypressing would be removed because of this new "lets rebind keys outside of the game", how am i supposed to focus fire with my magic boxed vikings and marines D: using the micro mechanics of sc2 is the only thing that keeps me in master, though its annoying to get flamed because my macro is so bad and yet i still win since my race is so op. (playing all three races). But i guess its just an addition in their user agreement to prevent that without changing their system.
So lets see how this affects the balance and then worry about what blizzard will do haha. Not that many people really abuse stop focus fire except from a few zergies against thors.
snively
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1159 Posts
February 18 2012 18:43 GMT
#27
its funny that two crazy methods for clicking really fast popped up in such a small period of time, although i guess the first one inspired some experimentation and such.

neat trick.
My religion is Starcraft
gwixter
Profile Joined January 2011
Slovakia336 Posts
February 18 2012 18:45 GMT
#28
On February 19 2012 03:04 Buzerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 02:03 FakePseudo wrote:
Third party software is of course accepted...Up to now, what blizzard forbade was to bind two or more keys (or actions) to one and only (like pressing s to build supply instead of b s). So the question is: do you think clicking multiple times (spamming clicks) should be considered as multiple different actions or just one? Now im surprised nobody got caught with the scroll wheel trick cuz normally blizzard sees it when one action is done to regularly, to fast or at mathematically equal time and thats how they catch other types of macros.


but this isnt a macro, this is a switch of a button on the keyboard and turning the refresh rate up to the max

If I understand it correctly you are holding key down for this to happen. Then I actually believe it is macro.
Because on one action (Key down) you are doing mouse click, which is two actions - mouse button down + mouse button up .... so yes it is macro

If you would have to press key repeatedly, then it would be 1 to 1 rebind and it would be ok, I guess.
"If you can chill, chill" - Liquid`Tyler || <3 Kiira Korpi :D
KDot2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1213 Posts
February 18 2012 18:47 GMT
#29
cool trick

but all of this crap should be banned from tournaments
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 18:48 GMT
#30
On February 19 2012 03:47 ToguRo wrote:
cool trick

but all of this crap should be banned from tournaments


and ladder IMO
Z-R0E
Profile Joined April 2009
United States147 Posts
February 18 2012 19:17 GMT
#31
I'm a bit surprised at some of the comments in here, a lot of this I thought would be common knowledge.

A 1:1 key rebind, even to a mouse click, is not a macro. Period. That doesn't instantly makes this okay, it just means that it is not a macro by definition.

In the context of what's allowed and what's not, drivers are not 3rd party programs. Many headsets/keyboards/mice would not function without drivers, so of course they're allowed. Even at MLG "All Players must submit their mouse, keyboard, and headset driver requirements [prior to the event]."

In terms of ladder play, this is not against the rules (if done through mouse drivers), period. It could very well be argued "unethical", but it won't get you banned (much like stream-cheating).

As far as tournament play, I believe this would already fall under MLG's rule "Players may not alter game files or modify drivers."
The Z-g0d http://atZinc.org
yeastiality
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada374 Posts
February 18 2012 19:33 GMT
#32
It's kinda funny that there are spells that benefit so much from aimlessly holding down buttons and stuff like that.
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
February 18 2012 19:41 GMT
#33
mouse drivers are allowed b/c you have to have those to set up your dpi....but to set up any macro keys/buttons...that's not legal
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15660 Posts
February 18 2012 19:45 GMT
#34
Good luck convincing a tournament admin to let you do this.
Berailfor
Profile Joined January 2012
441 Posts
February 18 2012 19:46 GMT
#35
I did in fact see in Catz recent nasl game him using the infested Terran trick. The casters were confused and assumed it was a shift command but you could tell it wasn't because he had no previous vision of the terrans tank setup (which was in an odd line lining a cliff). And spammed IT's so fast over all of them. I'm not sure if it's legal or not but he definitely did it no doubt. I dunno my opinions on whether or not it should be allowed. Seems to me it is substituting for how fast it'd normally take to click that speed. So IMO maybe it should be illegal reason being it is allowing something that takes much more clicking and screen time to happen in a lot shorter time (and more effectively because of how they are all virtually instantaneous)
askTeivospy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1525 Posts
February 18 2012 19:51 GMT
#36
how did you make a ~5 minute long video of this o_O Shorter is better.

anyways that infested terran use was pretty rofl fast
hihihi
RooStaR
Profile Joined January 2011
United States58 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 19:55:41
February 18 2012 19:55 GMT
#37
On February 19 2012 00:56 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 00:41 ManofWax wrote:
On February 18 2012 23:41 Buzerio wrote:
On February 18 2012 23:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?


its the same as with mousewheel, I did it in the drivers, I think thats allowed in tournaments.


Drivers are still "third part software". If they are not macro will be legal

Mouse driver is legal for sure.
Deathadder for example doesn't have a on-the-fly DPI changer, you need the driver to change it.


There are no reasons to use the driver software to change any settings for Starcraft, Blizzard has every setting that is needed in their menus. You do not need to change DPI out of game for your mouse speed to be high.
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
February 18 2012 19:57 GMT
#38
On February 19 2012 04:55 RooStaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 00:56 ETisME wrote:
On February 19 2012 00:41 ManofWax wrote:
On February 18 2012 23:41 Buzerio wrote:
On February 18 2012 23:40 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
How do you bind a mouse button to your keyboard? That doesn't sound like something you can do without third party software, which would mean it's illegal, no?


its the same as with mousewheel, I did it in the drivers, I think thats allowed in tournaments.


Drivers are still "third part software". If they are not macro will be legal

Mouse driver is legal for sure.
Deathadder for example doesn't have a on-the-fly DPI changer, you need the driver to change it.


There are no reasons to use the driver software to change any settings for Starcraft, Blizzard has every setting that is needed in their menus. You do not need to change DPI out of game for your mouse speed to be high.


1.) You're not changing settings for starcraft, you're changing settings for your mouse, thats different.
2.) No they don't have every setting that is needed, for instance, rebinding left click (most good games have this).
3.) You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about with the DPI situation. Changing your mouse speed in game isn't exactly the same as changing the dpi in the drivers for a death adder.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 20:08:38
February 18 2012 20:07 GMT
#39
I just tested it out, and it is a macro, not just a simple rebinding.

Steps for a Razer keyboard:

1. Create a macro with the steps
- Left-click down
- Left-click up
2. Assign the macro to a key
3. Set playback option for the key to be "Play while assigned key is pressed."

Unless there's another way to make holding down the left mouse button (or it's equivalent) click repeatedly, this is a macro that replays the keystrokes repeatedly. Isn't that already illegal, but Blizzard's rules? This isn't just a "rebinding." If you do a simple rebinding to something other than say, the scroll wheel, the effect should be exactly the same as it used to be, with no benefits.
gh0un
Profile Joined March 2011
601 Posts
February 18 2012 20:09 GMT
#40
Binding the left mouse click to a keyboard button is basically the same as changing the hotkey of a spell from O to A.
There are people that use no mouse whatsoever in order to utilize their computers, using only keyboard commands.

Limiting the speed of using certain spells (like infested terrans or snipe) by arbitrarily making it harder to click it fast is bad gamedesign anyways.
Why should there be certain buttons that are allowed to be pressed fast in succession (holding down a keyboard button) while other buttons arent allowed that function? (mouse buttons)

Either you disallow both keyboard AND mouse buttons to be pressed fast in succession, or you allow both of them, anything else is just ridiculous.
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 20:19:35
February 18 2012 20:12 GMT
#41
On February 19 2012 05:09 gh0un wrote:
Binding the left mouse click to a keyboard button is basically the same as changing the hotkey of a spell from O to A.
There are people that use no mouse whatsoever in order to utilize their computers, using only keyboard commands.

Limiting the speed of using certain spells (like infested terrans or snipe) by arbitrarily making it harder to click it fast is bad gamedesign anyways.
Why should there be certain buttons that are allowed to be pressed fast in succession (holding down a keyboard button) while other buttons arent allowed that function? (mouse buttons)

Either you disallow both keyboard AND mouse buttons to be pressed fast in succession, or you allow both of them, anything else is just ridiculous.


Even if you rebind left-click to a keyboard button, when you hold it down, it does NOT "press in fast succession" as you say UNLESS you change the driver settings to make it "play repeatedly."

Think about it. When you hold down the left mouse button, it doesn't play repeatedly. When you assign left-click to a keyboard, it's the same deal, just with a different physical input. The only way (as far as I know, so do correct me if you know better) to make a keyboard assigned left-click click repeatedly, is to use a driver and set it as "play repeatedly when button is held down," etc. This counts as a macro, no?
Z-R0E
Profile Joined April 2009
United States147 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 20:19:05
February 18 2012 20:14 GMT
#42
On February 19 2012 05:07 Karliath wrote:
I just tested it out, and it is a macro, not just a simple rebinding.

Steps for a Razer keyboard:

1. Create a macro with the steps
- Left-click down
- Left-click up
2. Assign the macro to a key
3. Set playback option for the key to be "Play while assigned key is pressed."

Unless there's another way to make holding down the left mouse button (or it's equivalent) click repeatedly, this is a macro that replays the keystrokes repeatedly. Isn't that already illegal, but Blizzard's rules? This isn't just a "rebinding." If you do a simple rebinding to something other than say, the scroll wheel, the effect should be exactly the same as it used to be, with no benefits.

If you omit the "play while assigned key is pressed" part, then yes, it's a normal 1:1 keybind. SC2, by nature, will repeat keyboard strokes while held. Try it out, select a bunch of larva and hold D.

If SC2 doesn't treat click-bound-to-key as a normal key click and repeats it, then yeah, needing to use "repeat while pressed" would make it a macro. I've never tried this, so I could have been wrong: I always assumed SC2 treats it like a keyboard key.

Edit: We posted at the same time, but pretty much said the same thing: "repeat while pressed" would indeed be considered a macro.
The Z-g0d http://atZinc.org
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
February 18 2012 20:15 GMT
#43
Not new. I've been using this, and even posting about it here, for quite some time.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309344&currentpage=2#36
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 20:21:25
February 18 2012 20:19 GMT
#44
On February 19 2012 05:14 Z-R0E wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 05:07 Karliath wrote:
I just tested it out, and it is a macro, not just a simple rebinding.

Steps for a Razer keyboard:

1. Create a macro with the steps
- Left-click down
- Left-click up
2. Assign the macro to a key
3. Set playback option for the key to be "Play while assigned key is pressed."

Unless there's another way to make holding down the left mouse button (or it's equivalent) click repeatedly, this is a macro that replays the keystrokes repeatedly. Isn't that already illegal, but Blizzard's rules? This isn't just a "rebinding." If you do a simple rebinding to something other than say, the scroll wheel, the effect should be exactly the same as it used to be, with no benefits.

If you omit the "play while assigned key is pressed" part, then yes, it's a normal 1:1 keybind. SC2, by nature, will repeat keyboard strokes while held. Try it out, select a bunch of larva and hold D.

If SC2 doesn't treat click-bound-to-key as a normal key click and repeats it, then yeah, needing to use "repeat while pressed" would make it a macro.


I understand the concept that holding D, for example, makes multiple larva into drones.

However, when you reassign the left-click button to a keyboard key through the drivers, the key is only played once, like a normal left-click. Therefore, as far as I can tell, the only way to make it play repeatedly is to set it in the driver, making it an unfair macro. I've tested this by assigning the left-click button to a macro button, F5, and x.

Again, do correct me if you know better. These are just my test results.
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
February 18 2012 20:22 GMT
#45
The way I see it, this is a problem with game design. Snipe, infested terran etc is made so that the faster you can left click, the more effective the spell is. With infestors you can shift-queue and they'll appear almost instantly, but that tends to bug out with snipe, so someone who can spam left click twice as fast as someone else will have a twice as effective Ghost.

I kinda wish they'd replace this with some abilities that depended more on positioning, multitasking and overall army control. Then, we wouldn't really need to worry about macros being a problem.
Fealthas
Profile Joined May 2011
607 Posts
February 18 2012 20:24 GMT
#46
You fail to mention how you did this.
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
February 18 2012 20:26 GMT
#47
On February 19 2012 05:24 Fealthas wrote:
You fail to mention how you did this.

You fail to read the rest of the thread.
gh0un
Profile Joined March 2011
601 Posts
February 18 2012 20:27 GMT
#48
You can use the mouse per numlock keys in windows (if you enable the function).
Pressing a button repeatedly on the keyboard is also faster than pressing it on the mouse.
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
February 18 2012 20:42 GMT
#49
Hmmmm curious which mouse do you use (drivers version too please) or keyboard if you're binding a key to a mouse function instead of binding a mouse function to a key.
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
February 18 2012 20:56 GMT
#50
On February 19 2012 05:42 CodECleaR wrote:
Hmmmm curious which mouse do you use (drivers version too please) or keyboard if you're binding a key to a mouse function instead of binding a mouse function to a key.


Im using the razer black widow ultimate, driver version 1.02, Im going to the assign keys section and clicking on F3 then single key then left clicking once. I then went into the control panel and turned the refresh rate of my keyboard to the max.

as someone in the thread earlier posted it appears im not the first to discover this, but different drivers seem to handle things differently, on my driver when I bind a key to something and hold it down it presses it as long as I hold it down (like a normal keyboard key would)

I'm using windows 7 if that helps
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 21:06:33
February 18 2012 20:58 GMT
#51
On February 19 2012 05:15 Kaitlin wrote:
Not new. I've been using this, and even posting about it here, for quite some time.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309344&currentpage=2#36


I see, didnt see that post, I havent used it on ladder though, I think it should be fixed. I also think however that the IT spell atleast needs a rework, the fact that the spell relies on clicking as fast as possible is stupid.

altough, if it was to become an option in SC2 itself I would use it in a heart beat.
Armada Vega
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada120 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 21:15:07
February 18 2012 21:12 GMT
#52
I think this should be defined as a macro, as Buzerio stated in earlier posts. the apm during this keybinding is anywhere from 1500apm to 10,000 apm. not a macro my ass. just clicking a button and holding shift can get you up to 10,000 apm? yeah no, has to be taken out of the game

edit/ the ability to rebind mouse buttons should be disabled by blizzard
twitter: @ArmadaVega
KoiKetv
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada7 Posts
February 19 2012 00:00 GMT
#53
I just tried it with a ps3 controller and an xbox360 controller same way you bind it with the mouse or the keyboard... Should i start a thread for both or one for each with the keybind detail? ....
Live free or die
Thombur
Profile Joined January 2012
95 Posts
February 19 2012 01:07 GMT
#54
Neither this nor mouse scroll left-click should be allowed even if it is accomplished using your regular drivers. I can make scripts and macros for my keyboard using it's drivers but that should not be allowed either.
ROOTCatZ
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Peru1226 Posts
February 19 2012 01:07 GMT
#55
On February 19 2012 04:46 Berailfor wrote:
I did in fact see in Catz recent nasl game him using the infested Terran trick. The casters were confused and assumed it was a shift command but you could tell it wasn't because he had no previous vision of the terrans tank setup (which was in an odd line lining a cliff). And spammed IT's so fast over all of them. I'm not sure if it's legal or not but he definitely did it no doubt. I dunno my opinions on whether or not it should be allowed. Seems to me it is substituting for how fast it'd normally take to click that speed. So IMO maybe it should be illegal reason being it is allowing something that takes much more clicking and screen time to happen in a lot shorter time (and more effectively because of how they are all virtually instantaneous)


you are wrong, and it was shift click
Progamerwww.root-gaming.com
FlamingTurd
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1059 Posts
February 19 2012 01:50 GMT
#56
I just watched that video and seriously... omg that is so broken!
Nerf MMMT!!! Liquid`Ret Hwaiting!!!
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-19 01:57:54
February 19 2012 01:56 GMT
#57
On February 19 2012 00:35 Buzerio wrote:
I dont agree that IT and Snipe is really micro, Is the micro in this game really just clicking the mouse fast?

Errr.... welcome to SCII?

On February 19 2012 09:00 KoiKetv wrote:
I just tried it with a ps3 controller and an xbox360 controller same way you bind it with the mouse or the keyboard... Should i start a thread for both or one for each with the keybind detail? ....

Don't be so bitter, OP makes a good point. It's a slippery slope, and being able to do something like this is obviously broken but technically not breaking any rules.
:)
Grohg
Profile Joined March 2011
United States243 Posts
February 19 2012 02:05 GMT
#58
It's not a macro or anything prohibited but it certain fits the definition of an exploit. I don't like it because it is a method of synthetically watering down the game. Imagine if three or four of these tricks existed that weren't technically banned but made it easier to play. Cool trick that was found but bad for the game overall.
You can't spell slaughter without laughter.
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
February 19 2012 06:25 GMT
#59
It's a neat trick and all. but how does this help in game?
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
Elean
Profile Joined October 2010
689 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-19 07:13:05
February 19 2012 07:11 GMT
#60
On February 19 2012 10:07 Thombur wrote:
Neither this nor mouse scroll left-click should be allowed even if it is accomplished using your regular drivers. I can make scripts and macros for my keyboard using it's drivers but that should not be allowed either.

Scripts or macro are forbidden, this is not.

Anything that realise more than 1 action per click/key strike is forbidden.

Reallocating one key to something else is something that can be done without external programm or mouse drivers, you just need to change the windows registry (there are programms that do it for you, but it can be done manually).

It's just windows configuration, like setting your mouse speed. You can not possibly forbid that.


Blizzard should set up a cool down for infested terrans & snipe, but this is clearly allowed and should be.
Elean
Profile Joined October 2010
689 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-19 07:20:22
February 19 2012 07:19 GMT
#61
On February 19 2012 11:05 Grohg wrote:
It's not a macro or anything prohibited but it certain fits the definition of an exploit. I don't like it because it is a method of synthetically watering down the game. Imagine if three or four of these tricks existed that weren't technically banned but made it easier to play. Cool trick that was found but bad for the game overall.

"Tricks" like that already exist and are used.
I'm pretty sure that most zerg hold the "D" button when they make drones/zerglins/etc., this gives them an insane APM over a short period of time. It doesn't break the game, does it ?

The problem is not the trick, the problem is snipe has no cool down.
theBOOCH
Profile Joined November 2010
United States832 Posts
February 19 2012 07:22 GMT
#62
Wow. Good thing snipe is getting nerfed lol :p
If all you're offering is Dos Equis, I will stay thirsty thank you very much.
KohHanMoo
Profile Joined February 2012
United States8 Posts
March 11 2012 18:08 GMT
#63
On February 19 2012 05:07 Karliath wrote:
I just tested it out, and it is a macro, not just a simple rebinding.

Steps for a Razer keyboard:

1. Create a macro with the steps
- Left-click down
- Left-click up
2. Assign the macro to a key
3. Set playback option for the key to be "Play while assigned key is pressed."

Unless there's another way to make holding down the left mouse button (or it's equivalent) click repeatedly, this is a macro that replays the keystrokes repeatedly. Isn't that already illegal, but Blizzard's rules? This isn't just a "rebinding." If you do a simple rebinding to something other than say, the scroll wheel, the effect should be exactly the same as it used to be, with no benefits.



the way blizzard has starcraft setup for keyboard presses this still isn't a macro.
ever play zerg?
if so, ever press and hold z on larvae to make multiple zerglings?
since you can press and hold z and make as many zerglings as you have larvae does that mean z is a macro with the default blizzard setup. absolutely not.
this is not an issue about whether or not the keyboard is a macro since it only rebinds the left click. its an ethics issue.
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