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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 06:27 Rassy wrote:Sad about the snipe nerve  Snipe kinda useless now against manny units, a normal ghost attack agains light deals 20 damage and snipe now 25:s Mule nerve not happy with either, terran so slow suv production how they go make use of gold with not sufficient suvs? guess it was needed though then rather remove all gold base. Hope they did patch it correctly, and that a mule also only takes of 5 minerals from a rich mineral patch and not mine 7 and return 5 such things easily get overlooked small patch btw, only 3 things changed
haha that would suck if the mules weren't fixed correctly xD i can see that happening though
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I like the practical results of how the snipe change works, but it doesn't really make sense. Why would someone who's skilled in psionics take more damage from the same shell? Is it some special psionic feedback round or something?
I'm looking forward to the Phoenix upgrade, though the prerequisite of Fleet Beacon is concerning - if Phoneixes are the only thing you're using the Fleet Becon for, it's going to be one awfully expensive upgrade. (Why does a Fleet Beacon cost as much as a Colossus, anyway?)
I like the MULE change - it's not really a nerf to Terrans, at least not in tournaments, seeing how with the current gold mineral mechanic in place tournament map makers were just removing gold minerals altogether. Without a fundamental racial bonus for having gold minerals, maybe we can start seeing a resurgence of gold bases and their associated interesting strategic choices for all the races.
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One on hand I like how they balanced the PvZ matchup, but I think this will make the game more harder for higher level terrans to win games...
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I'm also very happy for this patch and I play Terran. I hope this will go through and point to some serious issues for Terran lategame TvP, TvZ.. I don't care really, make bunker cost 200 and build 100, but god I hate playing against clock, really concidering to switch races until hots..
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On February 11 2012 06:24 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:22 R3DT1D3 wrote:
Seems like any units that are fun to use for Terran eventually get exploited by pro players and nerfed for everyone else.
Reaper
Hellion
Ghost
I understand why it's done (short-sided design) but it still sucks as a Terran losing all your toys and being encouraged to use A-move units more. I'm pretty sure there's been alot of hellions and will see alot of ghost used even after the changes. Reapers are underused, i'll give you that.
I didn't say they won't be used just that they're nerfed and reduce the enjoyment of playing Terran because of pro players exploiting them to their full potential.
Hellions are still used because they found another role while Reapers were just left in the gimmick pile. I don't want ghosts to become a gimmick unit as well.
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I like the Phoenix change, since it implicitly encourages experimentation with Carrier play as well. Snipe is interesting but might be a little much... maybe 30 damage would be more acceptable?
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Are the detailed notes up anywhere? Maybe I'm just being incredibly dense, but I can't seem to find them.
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On February 11 2012 06:21 courtpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:17 Ghostfoot wrote:On February 11 2012 06:11 The KY wrote:On February 11 2012 06:03 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 05:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 11 2012 05:56 oxxo wrote:On February 11 2012 05:55 AnYvia wrote:
LOL I called the ghost change back when there was the MVP vs July in GSL Semifinal (I think). I think this will make terrans play a little more creatively late game. You shouldn't have. Mvp was already ahead and July completely throw away his ultras. He sent them against CCs and let them all be sniped. He could have just killed every ghost right there. That's a horrible game to use as an example of 'overpowered snipe'. It's like a terran sending 20 tanks unsieged into a horde of zerglings and then complaining that zerglings are overpowered. Okay, how about Nestea vs. MVP at Blizzcon on Shakuras? Shakuras is a terrible map for TvZ. Also, funny how it's always MVP who crops up in these example discussions. Plus did you watch that game? Anyone who watches that and goes yep, nothing the zerg could have done there is BATSHIT INSANE. Nestea was in the tens of thousands of resources, maxed out, for about 10 minutes while he did literally nothing except kill the marines MVP sent out to die so he could remax on ghosts. It continues to baffle me what Nestea was thinking...200/200 and untold resources and he defends...aaaaah whaaaat. I wonder. In a hypothetical situation where that game was played out with the snipe nerf, would Mvp actually have any chance vs Nestea there? I mean, he cleaned it up but if he required even 50% (and from what I can tell, its greater) more snipes to do that, I think he wouldn't have held. I suppose only time will tell and we'll have to new other ways of dealing with heavy BL/infestor counts. easiest solution is not let them get there.
Why should Terran have to play on a timer against every race? Shouldn't balance be equal opportunity to win at all stages of the game, instead of I'm Zerg, its 20 minutes, I win hurrdurr your fault for letting me get there.
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On February 11 2012 06:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:27 Rassy wrote:Sad about the snipe nerve Snipe kinda useless now against manny units, a normal ghost attack agains light deals 20 damage and snipe now 25:s Mule nerve not happy with either, terran so slow suv production how they go make use of gold with not sufficient suvs? guess it was needed though then rather remove all gold base. Hope they did patch it correctly, and that a mule also only takes of 5 minerals from a rich mineral patch and not mine 7 and return 5 such things easily get overlooked small patch btw, only 3 things changed haha that would suck if the mules weren't fixed correctly xD i can see that happening though
TvT: Destroy your opponent's gold mineral patches in split map situation --> win the game.
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Anyone surprised Terran got the nerf? I was really expecting something against Zerg, given the last situation report mentioning they thought Zerg were doing extremely well in all match-ups/levels. Not saying if it's justified or not, but I'm just very surprised to see a relatively minor Protoss buff and very significant Terran nerfs, and no change for Zerg.
I feel like something should have offset the MULE/snipe nerfs, although two-sniping infestors easily is a small buff too. I guess overall it's just a minor patch. A very modest change considering the uproar over mass muta.
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I think that many of the posters here do not get how brillitant the Phoenix change is. It does basically nothing at the pro level, where a) it can be easily punished when you invest in it b) you do not actually need the extra range if you have amazing micro, which you should have if you are pro. But it will probably do wonders for me, a.k.a Joe the Platinum Toss, as at the moment, Phoenixes are basically usesless when outnumbered by mutas (read: always), as it is next to impossible that I micro them to be even remotely usefull.
This is exacaty the way it needs to be for SC2. Blizzard obviously needs to cater to the crowd that pays. It is absolutely amazing that they can find ways to do it without affeting professional gameplay much. The same actually goes for the MULE change - big change for ladder, no change for GSL. I applaud you, David Kim!
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i guess now ill build vikings instead of ghosts vs broods and die to ground army :D
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On February 11 2012 06:29 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 11 2012 06:27 Rassy wrote:Sad about the snipe nerve Snipe kinda useless now against manny units, a normal ghost attack agains light deals 20 damage and snipe now 25:s Mule nerve not happy with either, terran so slow suv production how they go make use of gold with not sufficient suvs? guess it was needed though then rather remove all gold base. Hope they did patch it correctly, and that a mule also only takes of 5 minerals from a rich mineral patch and not mine 7 and return 5 such things easily get overlooked small patch btw, only 3 things changed haha that would suck if the mules weren't fixed correctly xD i can see that happening though TvT: Destroy your opponent's gold mineral patches in split map situation --> win the game.
Can't wait for Boxer TvT's now!
Really happy these changes have happened, ESPECIALLY the retarded APM change. Seriously, what were they even thinking?
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Sounds like a sweet patch!
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On February 11 2012 02:08 Ketch wrote:
Woah, huge changes! They sound very reasonable to me!
ditto 
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On February 11 2012 02:17 Cr7Terran wrote:
i am switching to zerg =)
thought the same TT
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hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.
"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."
So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.
Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml
btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.
Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.
Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.
JOY.
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On February 11 2012 06:28 Crow! wrote:
I like the practical results of how the snipe change works, but it doesn't really make sense. Why would someone who's skilled in psionics take more damage from the same shell? Is it some special psionic feedback round or something?
I'm looking forward to the Phoenix upgrade, though the prerequisite of Fleet Beacon is concerning - if Phoneixes are the only thing you're using the Fleet Becon for, it's going to be one awfully expensive upgrade. (Why does a Fleet Beacon cost as much as a Colossus, anyway?)
I like the MULE change - it's not really a nerf to Terrans, at least not in tournaments, seeing how with the current gold mineral mechanic in place tournament map makers were just removing gold minerals altogether. Without a fundamental racial bonus for having gold minerals, maybe we can start seeing a resurgence of gold bases and their associated interesting strategic choices for all the races.
Lore can always be whacked a little until it settles into place. Feedback round is one way, explaining that psionic organisms have larger brains and are thus easier to headshot is another.
As for the Fleet Beacon: it's more of a down payment than anything. It means that the transition into Broodlord tech will be easier than ever before to counter. I think that if the upgrade is 100/100 and not too long in production, it ought to be a beautiful check against Mutalisks.
EDIT:
To all the complainers:
Nerf to Snipe was completely necessary. It was possible to produce a lategame Terran army consisting only of Ghosts that could snipe absolutely anything the Zerg threw at them at a rate the Zerg simply could not compete with. There was a point of no return with Ghosts, where afterwards the Terran army literally could not be destroyed. Not just "couldn't be destroyed cost-effectively", but actually indestructible. That same point of no return probably still exists, but now it's about twice as far out. Untouchable deathballs are a really bad thing. The alternative to this would be something like giving Broodlords spell immunity, and that would make PvZ nigh-unwinnable in the lategame, as it's nearly impossible to kill a full Inf/BL army without Vortex (just like it's nearly impossible to kill a Colo deathball without BL tech).
Snipe on Ghosts was only ever used in TvZ to construct that unstoppable deathball, and as such a nerf to Snipe is a nerf not to Terran but to unstoppable Terran deathballs.
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On February 11 2012 06:24 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:22 R3DT1D3 wrote:
Seems like any units that are fun to use for Terran eventually get exploited by pro players and nerfed for everyone else.
Reaper
Hellion
Ghost
I understand why it's done (short-sided design) but it still sucks as a Terran losing all your toys and being encouraged to use A-move units more. I'm pretty sure there's been alot of hellions and will see alot of ghost used even after the changes. Reapers are underused, i'll give you that.
I think he's more referring to the fact that the Code S Terrans use Terran units to their fullest, and it makes Terran seem overpowered at the highest levels. Then Blizzard decides to nerf Terran, but the nerf extends beyond Code S, and those of us in Masters & below have to deal with being nerfed even though we were never able to benefit from the "overpowered" capabilities that the Code S players were.
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EPT
