EPTStarCraft Map Analysis: StarGraphed - Page 2
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
On February 06 2012 05:39 Grumbels wrote: I don't want to be mean, but what use would this serve ever? Viewers have just watched the game, they know where the majority of the fights and such happened. It's not even interesting information, because it only gives you a vague idea of what kind of game just happened anyway. People can make those observations for themselves. I really don't want starcraft casts to end up with endless talk about pointless statistics. Don't think about it as adding more post-game time, but tool to improve between-game discussion that already exist. Currently, casters often have to fill around 8 minutes of airtime in each Bo3 set. The best casters can paint a picture discussing what happened or throw in unrelated banters to fill time, but the less capable will often flounder trying to make noise. A visual aid like this will help both the caster and the viewers by providing an immediate reminder of the previous match, making the commentary better. More importantly, this is the first significant effort in producing quality casting tools for commentators. Where are the instant replays, the picture-in-pictures for SC2? It's about time the community step in and make these casting aids available. | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
On February 06 2012 05:39 Grumbels wrote: I don't want to be mean, but what use would this serve ever? Viewers have just watched the game, they know where the majority of the fights and such happened. It's not even interesting information, because it only gives you a vague idea of what kind of game just happened anyway. People can make those observations for themselves. I really don't want starcraft casts to end up with endless talk about pointless statistics. I'm definitely not looking to make the entire game a series of meaningless numbers, or make the casters spout stats after stats. We're hoping for a two-fold plan with this: Short Term: - Something to briefly talk about if the game requires it. Allows for visual representation of the game right after it is over. Especially for longer games it allows for the important points to be pointed out more easily. - Getting a feel for something like this or tools like it. TBO has been very focused in increasing production quality with overlays or picture-in-picture tech. Something like this just adds to the list Long Term: Map Statistics. With enough time we would like to set up a site for regularly updated statistics on maps played over time. For example, some people may wonder where the fights are mainly done on ZvZs on Antiga Shipyard, or how many TvP's end up with air units by protoss. If we can get replay analysis working, all this is possible. We're excited about whether this can be done. | ||
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monitor
United States2406 Posts
I think the most valuable feature right now is just to know where engagements happen- that way you can tell if the map is working the way you want it. For example- is there much harassment going on? Are all of the engagements near expansions or is there variety? Does map control work on the map? Would love some more data on all of the ladder/gsl maps about where engagements happen (even just damage being dealt?). | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On February 06 2012 06:03 Primadog wrote: Don't think about it as adding more post-game time, but tool to improve between-game discussion that already exist. Currently, casters often have to fill around 8 minutes of airtime in each Bo3 set. The best casters can paint a picture discussing what happened or throw in unrelated banters to fill time, but the less capable will often flounder trying to make noise. A visual aid like this will help both the caster and the viewers by providing an immediate reminder of the previous match, making the commentary better. More importantly, this is the first significant effort in producing quality casting tools for commentators. Where are the instant replays, the picture-in-pictures for SC2? It's about time the community step in and make these casting aids available. Sure, but that's just a marketing pitch. I think it's a good precedent to set to develop such tools though, it's a nice initiative. | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
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Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
If you could hook up with GOM and get this into maps and on the "main stage" as well it would be insane. Definitely possibly the thing with the biggest potential to add depth to game analysis that's ever come about. Might also nudge people towards valuing analytical casting over say what you see as well. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On February 06 2012 05:39 Grumbels wrote: I don't want to be mean, but what use would this serve ever? Viewers have just watched the game, they know where the majority of the fights and such happened. It's not even interesting information, because it only gives you a vague idea of what kind of game just happened anyway. People can make those observations for themselves. I really don't want starcraft casts to end up with endless talk about pointless statistics. Clearly you haven't watched much Starcraft 2. Casters typically miss things (partly their own fault, partly the fact that players can multitask, and there are 2 players vs one caster). It gives a useful summary and some insight that could potentially be missed in the heat of the battle. Also, showing things like transitions and compositions in such a nice and comparable way at the end of the game is really nice, and allows people, especially in best of x matches, to look at how players responded to each other etc. It adds a lot and makes up for the fact that there are many difficulties in casting. How often have you known what players have in terms of economy through a game? Hardly ever, because most casters don't pay attention. This, for example, gives you a summary of workers throughout the game. | ||
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TiTanIum_
Brazil1335 Posts
On February 06 2012 07:26 Lonyo wrote: This is actual next level stuff. Proper statistics, quick to access, simple and clear. If you could hook up with GOM and get this into maps and on the "main stage" as well it would be insane. Definitely possibly the thing with the biggest potential to add depth to game analysis that's ever come about. Might also nudge people towards valuing analytical casting over say what you see as well. Hope GOM does pick it up. Probably Junkka lurks TL enough to notice this. Or the creators could talk directly to them. But how does it look in the map screen? I see you posted only a cropped screenshot, but how does it actually look? | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
On February 06 2012 10:16 TiTanIum_ wrote: Hope GOM does pick it up. Probably Junkka lurks TL enough to notice this. Or the creators could talk directly to them. But how does it look in the map screen? I see you posted only a cropped screenshot, but how does it actually look? The screenshot is of the whole thing. It seems to be impossible to show it in the actual map, as it is not powerful enough to generate the heat map. There is a separate system running outside of the game that captures/catalogues/archives the information. @bkrow: Would be trivial to remove the workers from the army composition | ||
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BronzElite
Germany29 Posts
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
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BronzElite
Germany29 Posts
- animated heat maps for long games, by using only part of the data, within a sliding window along the time axis (these would visualize transitions in map control, or transitions of tech) - distinguishing between combat heat (where damage is done to enemy units) and maneuver heat (where units move without firing) - distinguish between ground and air combat/movement - defensive heat: where bunkers, cannons, queens, spine/spore crawlers are firing near a friendly base - rush pressure heat: where bunkers, cannons, queens, spine/spore crawlers are firing near an enemy base - static map control: where the above units are placed far from bases - drop pressure: where units are fighting that did not themselves move there (i.e. nydus, medivac, warp prism) These are just starting points. The progamers and the map makers and the casters will know best what insights can be gained from specialized heat maps or animations. | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
The animated heatmaps are planned, as well as per-player heatmaps. Also thinking about expansion locations over 100s of plays on maps to see what areas aren't expanded to often, etc. | ||
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SyX
Australia5 Posts
You should definitely see if GOM would be interested, perhaps after a little polishing or fine tuning. I think what this probably needs most (it's not clear if it already has it) is the ability for casters to choose what information they want to look at. For example: They possibly do not want to have the worker count on the same graph as the combat units type distributions. They serve to make the combat units graph more difficult to read and squish it all up. A side by side worker or income graph for the two players would be nice. On the combat graph side, they need more direct customization. Being able to choose between a gateway/robo/stargate breakdown and a melee/ranged/air breakdown is cool (although probably not a choice, more protoss against zerg?). They should also be able to do the various comparisons in terms of counts, food, or cost (with a minerals against gas breakdown). What would be more interesting is for example: if the casters know that a standard PvT needs to open with storm or collosi and will then probably end up incorporating both the combat unit composition graph should have options to specifically track and highlight (in different and more attention grabbing colours) the high templar and collosi counts throughout the game. This should be entirely customizable so that the caster/analyzer can show or find the information that they want to use. Ideally it will capture all of this data separately in the computation, so that the casters can toggle these on the fly during their analysis, and do not have to know precisely what information they want to highlight before clicking the analyse button. But even if this is not possible, it will still be very powerful. | ||
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