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On January 31 2012 08:47 FaRess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:32 aTnClouD wrote:On January 31 2012 08:30 Corsica wrote:On January 31 2012 08:29 aTnClouD wrote:On January 31 2012 08:26 Corsica wrote:
3 AM ... It was 3 Fucking AM in Europe, Stephano was playing whole day, showed some amazing games on Scan Invitational and ONOG. Imagine if you worked whole day, trying to get a raise, and so you work for 12 hours, and then your boss tells you , no fuck you, you worked till 3 AM, and I cant even give you small raise, and now whole office will know and we will hate you...Golden rule people...
There are real people behind pro-gamer IDs. And there are real people raising money and going to a barcraft to have a forfeited final match cause one of the players couldn't take responsibility for finishing what he started, without giving a shit on everybody else. This is a major act of disrespect imo. Should he die near his computer? He played two tournaments and delayed one of the two to forfeit the finals, the mess is his fault in the first place so he better take responsibility and finish what he started. No need for more spoiled arrogant kids in esports, thanks. Where did you see him say it's not his fault and that he is not taking responsibility ? What is arrogant about forfeiting because you're exhausted ? You think if he was as successful as you are (not much) he wouldn't forfeit the tournament, how would you know. you absolutely make no sense, you're the little kid expressing his pointless opinion
Well he is not taking responsibility by forfeiting his final match. And "I dont understand why people can get mad cuz i gave up for onog, even if i had played the game would have been awful." from his twitter gives the same feeling of 'not my fault'. I mean there isn't even a 'sorry to disappoint my fans and the tournament organizers'. And yes it is arrogant to hold up the tournament to then forfeit when it gets to late. And saying "you're the little kid expressing his pointless opinion" to a progamer who probably knows more about the topic then you isn't a very smart idea.
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On January 31 2012 08:53 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I don t get why TL opened a thread in community news for a player forfeiting a tournament. Are you guys trying to increase drama and hate toward a player ? Is it what TL is for ? This is ridiculous
A number of French TL'ers have already stated what you mentioned. Is it because of Stephano you seem to be out in force to defend him? It's news, TeamLiquid is a news site where the community can read about the latest happenings in competitive SC, that is what TL is for.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On January 31 2012 08:56 mathsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:55 Malinor wrote:
I really cannot understand how this made the front page. But Stephano handled that very poorly, I agree. Caster moves make the front page....why is everyone in an uproar about this on the front page? Make a successful gaming site and you can pick whatever you want for the front page! 
Seriously, this is a site primarily about competitive StarCraft, if this situation does not qualify as some sort of news or headline what does?
It is not a picture of someone with a girl, or a pro BMing another pro on ladder, or someone not paying a bet, or someone getting married. It's about as relevant and related as it could be to competitive SC, the scene, and a broadcast/event...
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On January 31 2012 08:53 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:47 FaRess wrote:On January 31 2012 08:32 aTnClouD wrote:On January 31 2012 08:30 Corsica wrote:On January 31 2012 08:29 aTnClouD wrote:On January 31 2012 08:26 Corsica wrote:
3 AM ... It was 3 Fucking AM in Europe, Stephano was playing whole day, showed some amazing games on Scan Invitational and ONOG. Imagine if you worked whole day, trying to get a raise, and so you work for 12 hours, and then your boss tells you , no fuck you, you worked till 3 AM, and I cant even give you small raise, and now whole office will know and we will hate you...Golden rule people...
There are real people behind pro-gamer IDs. And there are real people raising money and going to a barcraft to have a forfeited final match cause one of the players couldn't take responsibility for finishing what he started, without giving a shit on everybody else. This is a major act of disrespect imo. Should he die near his computer? He played two tournaments and delayed one of the two to forfeit the finals, the mess is his fault in the first place so he better take responsibility and finish what he started. No need for more spoiled arrogant kids in esports, thanks. Where did you see him say it's not his fault and that he is not taking responsibility ? What is arrogant about forfeiting because you're exhausted ? You think if he was as successful as you are (not much) he wouldn't forfeit the tournament, how would you know. you absolutely make no sense, you're the little kid expressing his pointless opinion It's arrogant to play in two invite tournaments at the same time resulting in making everybody wait and then forfeiting in the finals. It means you don't give a shit about all these people putting their time and hard work into a succesful esport event.Taking responsibility means finishing what he started because other people would pay for it otherwise. I had a similar situation at Dreamhack when he was out of the group already and cheesed me every game in very stupid ways to finish it as fast as he could, even if it could change the outcome of the group. This kind of attitude is not excusable.
That's not really a similar situation at all. Here he was in the final with a chance to win a lot of money, do you think he'd have passed that up if he was in any fit state to play? As it is he told them he couldn't play that day, they then made the best decision for their event, and he's accepted the negative consequences to himself. All of your comments in this thread have sounded like they have far more to do with you personally disliking Stephano than any great concern for the future of E-sports.
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On January 31 2012 08:56 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:51 Corsica wrote:On January 31 2012 08:50 Bagration wrote:On January 31 2012 08:45 Corsica wrote:On January 31 2012 08:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 31 2012 08:43 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 08:41 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 08:37 Quakie wrote:
I got ya, Hot_Bid. Doesn't seem like it is bias at place here. Over to the case, Stephano seems to be a very blunt guy, and I think this also got to him here a bit. Its frustrating because even if someone makes a really shitty OP like "Liquid sucks now man" we'd have to consider leaving it open even if we'd instantly close an "EG sucks now man" or "Mouz sucks now man" thread, because people get all wound up about perceived bias. 1. If any other non-Liquid player forfeited first round, we'd not make a thread 2. If Tyler or Ret or Zenio or Hero forfeited in the finals for a similar reason as Stephano did, we'd make a thread You can believe us or not about the truth of these two statements, but that is what we'd do, and if that's the case then there is no hypocrisy here. As for the newsworthiness of this, of course it's news, it's one of the best if not the best non Korean forfeiting in the finals of a semi-major community organized tournament with a 3k prize pool. It's about as concrete news and notable as it gets. Did you make a thread about Polt? nobody gives a shit about the go4sc2 cup. they dont even have LR threads. Well its unprofessional behaviour so lets raise the topic, We can shit on Stephano, why cant we shit on Polt. Unprofessional is Unprofessional Unprofessional is unprofessional, but magnitude and significance does matter as well. Newswise, not ethicswise Well thats why one made "news" and the others didnt. Good point!
Why cant we all come to terms with the fact that people care about this and not about the others...
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On January 31 2012 08:51 HardMacro wrote:
Why so serious?
Actually, thats a really good question.
A mediocre player was unprofessional. Lets open a big drama-bottle. Stephano wasnt forced to accept two tournaments on one day, he could have anticipated that it would take longer than scheduled. Or better, should have. So he didnt. Proves, that he is immature and needs proper management (i actually think its not just his fault, but his teams as well), obviously he cant do it himself.
The jokes about french and retreating and stuff, well, the joke is on him. Its like the fat burger-eating american, the ninja-asians, the boring-germans (sometimes racist-germans or "masterrace-germans"), stuff like that. Nothing is meant offensive, its just.. Well i know the german word, but not the english one. French are baguette, eiffeltower and tanks with 6 reverse gears. If you take stuff like that srsly, you got a bigger problem than some guy forfeiting (actually, that does make me giggle^^) a tournament.
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Why should he be punished i don't get it ...... a live tournament with different people from different parts of the world is going to have some players playing at ridiculous hours. Why is everyone flaming stephano when the tournament could have done a better job scheduling? Stephano is not the only person to blame ....
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On January 31 2012 08:51 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:50 Bagration wrote:On January 31 2012 08:45 Corsica wrote:On January 31 2012 08:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 31 2012 08:43 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 08:41 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 08:37 Quakie wrote:
I got ya, Hot_Bid. Doesn't seem like it is bias at place here. Over to the case, Stephano seems to be a very blunt guy, and I think this also got to him here a bit. Its frustrating because even if someone makes a really shitty OP like "Liquid sucks now man" we'd have to consider leaving it open even if we'd instantly close an "EG sucks now man" or "Mouz sucks now man" thread, because people get all wound up about perceived bias. 1. If any other non-Liquid player forfeited first round, we'd not make a thread 2. If Tyler or Ret or Zenio or Hero forfeited in the finals for a similar reason as Stephano did, we'd make a thread You can believe us or not about the truth of these two statements, but that is what we'd do, and if that's the case then there is no hypocrisy here. As for the newsworthiness of this, of course it's news, it's one of the best if not the best non Korean forfeiting in the finals of a semi-major community organized tournament with a 3k prize pool. It's about as concrete news and notable as it gets. Did you make a thread about Polt? nobody gives a shit about the go4sc2 cup. they dont even have LR threads. Well its unprofessional behaviour so lets raise the topic, We can shit on Stephano, why cant we shit on Polt. Unprofessional is Unprofessional Unprofessional is unprofessional, but magnitude and significance does matter as well. Newswise, not ethicswise
I agree with you. That's why I am a bit disappointed that all of the hate and flack is going towards Stephano when Tyler did the same thing in the same tournament. Yes, I understand it was in the group stages compared to the finals, and that's why I do not think there should be a thread for Tyler, but there should still be some explanation on his reasoning for quiting 2 of his 3 games in a community sponsored tournament.
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On January 31 2012 08:53 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I don t get why TL opened a thread in community news for a player forfeiting a tournament. Are you guys trying to increase drama and hate toward a player ? Is it what TL is for ? This is ridiculous
I don't think it is to increase hate. There was already a discussion on the matter, this was just moved from the thread of the tournament, to a new thread specifically addressing the issue.
Stephano had a selfish & disgraceful behaviour, and it is good to discuss it to prevent such actions to happen in the futur, for everyone's sake. There was bad management from the player, which the rules in the tournament did not anticipate. It is good to discuss it.
Yeah there's a bit of hate here and there, he can deal with it and hopefully move on to be less of a kid, and more of a progamer.
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On January 31 2012 08:53 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:47 FaRess wrote:On January 31 2012 08:32 aTnClouD wrote:On January 31 2012 08:30 Corsica wrote:On January 31 2012 08:29 aTnClouD wrote:On January 31 2012 08:26 Corsica wrote:
3 AM ... It was 3 Fucking AM in Europe, Stephano was playing whole day, showed some amazing games on Scan Invitational and ONOG. Imagine if you worked whole day, trying to get a raise, and so you work for 12 hours, and then your boss tells you , no fuck you, you worked till 3 AM, and I cant even give you small raise, and now whole office will know and we will hate you...Golden rule people...
There are real people behind pro-gamer IDs. And there are real people raising money and going to a barcraft to have a forfeited final match cause one of the players couldn't take responsibility for finishing what he started, without giving a shit on everybody else. This is a major act of disrespect imo. Should he die near his computer? He played two tournaments and delayed one of the two to forfeit the finals, the mess is his fault in the first place so he better take responsibility and finish what he started. No need for more spoiled arrogant kids in esports, thanks. Where did you see him say it's not his fault and that he is not taking responsibility ? What is arrogant about forfeiting because you're exhausted ? You think if he was as successful as you are (not much) he wouldn't forfeit the tournament, how would you know. you absolutely make no sense, you're the little kid expressing his pointless opinion It's arrogant to play in two invite tournaments at the same time resulting in making everybody wait and then forfeiting in the finals. It means you don't give a shit about all these people putting their time and hard work into a succesful esport event.Taking responsibility means finishing what he started because other people would pay for it otherwise. I had a similar situation at Dreamhack when he was out of the group already and cheesed me every game in very stupid ways to finish it as fast as he could, even if it could change the outcome of the group. This kind of attitude is not excusable.
Very true words. Its not the first time that Stephano is involved in such a case.
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Braavos36402 Posts
As for my personal thoughts on this, I think there's blame to be handed to everyone.
Stephano for not just picking one event and going with it, or knowing what he's getting into with the time. At the minimum he should apologize or seem a bit more reserved in his statements after the fact, I think a lot of people are just upset because he seems to brush it off like it's no big deal.
ONOG should not delay their tournament for one player just because he's popular. It's a difficult decision but it's more fair for everyone else. Illusion made a good point, would they have delayed it for hours for him? Probably not. They allowed Stephano to play in another tournament that delayed their own, the result was compounding delay that screwed over their finals. They are partly to blame too and next time I would not be surprised if they have a "no two tournaments" rule. We've always had this rule for TL Opens as well.
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everything getting blowin out of proportion like always by sc fans-_- he forfeited got 4th place move along now
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On January 31 2012 09:00 ProBot wrote:
Why should he be punished i don't get it ...... a live tournament with different people from different parts of the world is going to have some players playing at ridiculous hours. Why is everyone flaming stephano when the tournament could have done a better job scheduling? Stephano is not the only person to blame ....
Because Stephano signed up for TWO tournaments running at the same time.
How is ONOG to blame for that scheduling issue?
They (and myself, and I'm sure many other viewers) delayed the stream by nearly an hour for him, only to forfeit. To be clear, Stephano asked for time, was granted it, was told he could play the games while other games were played so the finals could be cast by replay.....and he still walked away.
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On January 31 2012 08:56 mathsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:55 Malinor wrote:
I really cannot understand how this made the front page. But Stephano handled that very poorly, I agree. Caster moves make the front page....why is everyone in an uproar about this on the front page?
As I just editet, I just think the scale of the tournament is just way too small, forfeits in smaller tournaments happen all the time, and 3k one week-end is just too little in my personal opinion.
Regarding the caster move making the front page, this is basically one of the top casters during the last few years, in the biggest esports country in the world, going to cover SC2. I think that is quite notable news.
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On January 31 2012 09:00 ProBot wrote:
Why should he be punished i don't get it ...... a live tournament with different people from different parts of the world is going to have some players playing at ridiculous hours. Why is everyone flaming stephano when the tournament could have done a better job scheduling? Stephano is not the only person to blame ....
Are you trolling or do you actually mean that?
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On January 31 2012 08:33 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:21 purecarnagge wrote:On January 31 2012 06:41 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 31 2012 06:30 eYeball wrote:
Waiting for another thread regarding Tyler to show up any second now, TeamLiquid Esports. I am not sure whether people are actually serious about this, do you really think that there should be a thread every time someone forfeits in a tournament? Do you truly think that "Tyler forfeits round 1 of tournament" is worth a thread by itself? It is not a notable news worthy event. The situation with Stephano in the finals of a major invitational (3k prize pool) is something that never happened before, and about a player who is one of the best (if not the best) non-Koreans. Think about what would happen in either scenario: 1. We make a thread just about Tyler forfeiting People complain because it clearly isn't news worthy. Tyler dropping out in the first round doesn't really affect the tournament. Tyler isn't winning championships and didn't forfeit in the finals. People will say its just TL "hyping another one of their players who doesn't get results" etc. 2. We don't make a thread about Tyler forfeiting People react like they are in this thread Tyler forfeiting doesn't fit in this thread, and isn't even close to the level of notability / newsworthiness that this situation with Stephano is. It seems a bit unfair and far too easy to just point and yell bias all the time. I still don't understand whether people actually believe there should be a thread about Tyler's forfeit or whether they just like finding things to complain about. If it was any other player forfeiting (not Tyler) in the first round, we still wouldn't make a thread about it. On January 31 2012 06:45 Hot_Bid wrote:
I don't understand how people can say its hypocrisy that there is no thread about Tyler when if it was anyone else who forfeits first round (literally anyone, doesn't have to be Liquid) we wouldn't make a thread about it.
To summarize:
1. Anyone forfeiting first round, no thread, not newsworthy
2. One of the best foreigners forfeiting invitational right before finals, yes thread
#1 doesn't matter if it's Liquid, there wouldn't be a thread about Destiny or Flo or Incontrol or anyone else forfeiting first round, this should be obvious to anyone. There is no special treatment for Tyler. While I understand ONOGs position of wanting to clarify the situation with Stephano especially after such a lengthy delay in there schedule. I just find it completely odd that nobody wants to mention the other withdrawal from the tournament. That being Liquid Tyler. While I would like to think that Tyler understands being a professional more than most in this industry and his career. I find it rather amusing that your so quick to stick up for him, post multiple times, then offer no reason to the community. The same community that he asks to support him, his site, his team, makes $$ off of through advertising and streaming. First, I never "defended" Tyler's decision to forfeit. I only defended our decision not to make a thread about it. Look through my posts, not once have I defended the actual action. It isn't mentioned here because it shouldn't be. That's the bottom line. This is a thread about something that is worth having a news topic. I've stated why. It is interesting that you read so much bias into my posts when I never once talked about whether I approved or disapproved of his decision to withdraw. Second, I don't know why Tyler forfeited, so I don't have a viewpoint on it. If it was because "he didn't feel like playing" then yes I think it's a bad decision. If it's because his friend is in the hospital, then I think it's justified. Do I believe he should state why? Yeah I do. Again, none of this is relevant to the thread at hand. If it was any other player, Incontrol, Destiny, Sase, anyone in this tournament else I'd still have the same opinion and act the same way. Of course, you wouldn't be accusing me of bias then so I wouldn't have to make this post. Lastly, the thread doesn't defend or state a viewpoint on who was right. It doesn't villainize Stephano or ONOG, and I think it does a good job of aggregating data and presenting responses and facts. It doesn't push a specific interpretation of who was right in this. Show nested quote +Liquid has always been cleaner than the rest. They were always the guys that people gravitated towards because they did it better than the other guys, even when they weren't performing, and they always had fun. What does leaving in the 1st round have to do with being a professional. The bottom line is it isn't professional. Not offering an explanation to your supporters isn't either.
Does Tyler owe anyone an explanation? No, he doesn't. He doesn't have to do a damn thing. Your posts defending him and saying nothing when 70% of his supporters simply want to know "why?". These are the supporters paying his bills, his teams bills, and making this site one of the best on the internet.
Its just an opinion. It's not the most news worthy event but people would like to know. If people want to know then guess what...Thats NEWS!!!!!!!! OMG LIQUID TYLER IS NEWS ON TEAMLIQUID.NET. Again, I am not Tyler. I do not know why he forfeited. Do I want an explanation just like you? Yes, I would like one. What is your point? I didn't defend him, I just don't know why he forfeited. Contrary to you, I actually do think he owes fans and organizers some sort of explanation. I really feel like sometimes people just look really hard for bias when it's not there, I didn't defend Tyler's actions at all in this thread, I just defended our decision not to make a separate thread about him. We'd not make a thread if it was a player of Tyler's stature and caliber even if he was not on Liquid so I don't see the bias.
Its liquid tyler, and its teamliquid.net...and tyler forfeiting isn't news? I mean its not spotlight worthy, but its news. That's all I'm saying.
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On January 31 2012 09:00 ProBot wrote:
Why should he be punished i don't get it ...... a live tournament with different people from different parts of the world is going to have some players playing at ridiculous hours. Why is everyone flaming stephano when the tournament could have done a better job scheduling? Stephano is not the only person to blame ....
seriously? its now the tournament's fault?
how can people be this ridiculous.
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On January 31 2012 09:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
As for my personal thoughts on this, I think there's blame to be handed to everyone.
Stephano for not just picking one event and going with it, or knowing what he's getting into with the time. At the minimum he should apologize or seem a bit more reserved in his statements after the fact, I think a lot of people are just upset because he seems to brush it off like it's no big deal.
ONOG should not delay their tournament for one player just because he's popular. It's a difficult decision but it's more fair for everyone else. Illusion made a good point, would they have delayed it for hours for him? Probably not. They allowed Stephano to play in another tournament that delayed their own, the result was compounding delay that screwed over their finals. They are partly to blame too and next time I would not be surprised if they have a "no two tournaments" rule. We've always had this rule for TL Opens as well.
so caster should apologize too for bashing a nation no ?
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On January 31 2012 09:01 MandoRelease wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:53 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I don t get why TL opened a thread in community news for a player forfeiting a tournament. Are you guys trying to increase drama and hate toward a player ? Is it what TL is for ? This is ridiculous I don't think it is to increase hate. There was already a discussion on the matter, this was just moved from the thread of the tournament, to a new thread specifically addressing the issue. Stephano had a selfish & disgraceful behaviour, and it is good to discuss it to prevent such actions to happen in the futur, for everyone's sake. There was bad management from the player, which the rules in the tournament did not anticipate. It is good to discuss it. Yeah there's a bit of hate here and there, he can deal with it and hopefully move on to be less of a kid, and more of a progamer.
I respect your point, Mando.
But why didnt Liquid say anything about Tyler forfeiting?
If Stephanos behavior was selfish and disgraceful, so was Tyler's.
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On January 31 2012 09:02 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:56 mathsucks wrote:On January 31 2012 08:55 Malinor wrote:
I really cannot understand how this made the front page. But Stephano handled that very poorly, I agree. Caster moves make the front page....why is everyone in an uproar about this on the front page? As I just editet, I just think the scale of the tournament is just way too small, forfeits in smaller tournaments happen all the time, and 3k one week-end is just too little in my personal opinion. Regarding the caster move making the front page, this is basically one of the top casters during the last few years, in the biggest esports country in the world, going to cover SC2. I think that is quite notable news.
Unfortunately, your "personal opinion" doesnt run TL.net.
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EPT
