Do We Want the Game Harder? - Page 16

On January 24 2012 04:21 Rassy wrote:
This probably has been mentioned before but where is the option to vote the game should become easier?
This option should at least be in a poll if the game should become more difficult

Annyway:i think the game should become mechanically easier
Not so much the micro, but more the macro.
Atm macro takes to much time compared to the more fun part of microing your units and moving around your armies
so: the game should become "easier"
Unfortunatly this option is not in the poll, so i didnt vote



edit/suplement:

It would not kill sc as an esports,how difficult a game is (mechanically) has little to do with its popularity.
If annything the relation is inverse , definatly after a cerain point.
(example the huge popularity of lol wich is considered an easier game then dota and such, it had 120k vieuwers in kiev)
The skill ceiling will still be near infinite, so easier is relative here, i just means that macro should take less time.
The fun when watching streams is in watching the armys and engagements (at least for me) and not watching players macro.

On January 24 2012 05:59 ArvickHero wrote:

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..

On January 24 2012 05:59 ArvickHero wrote:

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..

On January 24 2012 05:59 ArvickHero wrote:

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..

On January 24 2012 05:56 Iamyournoob wrote:
The question raised in this thread adresses imo the wrong issue.

You don't need to make the game harder in terms of accessability. Everyone can kick a ball, soccer is easy to learn, yet there are players like Lionel Messi who shine above all.

I don't want the game to be harder, I want it to be better. SC2 has many gameplay and design issues which do not stem from unlimited unit selection, smart casting or automining or whatever.

Units lack micro potential, clumping has its issues, no defender's advantage... The list goes on, there are tons of threads about these topics out there. These are the true issues.

Hell, I'd even say the game is too fast. How do you want to micro when everything disappears in the blink of an eye?
No, the games is mechanically difficult enough. But the game is so poorly designed that players, which could take the mechanical aspects of the game to a higher level, are limited by non-microable units and lack of incentives to split up armies and use apm for multitasking.

And the reason why some players, who are mechanically inferior to others, can still beat big names is due to build order wins, easy-peasy all-ins, lack of scouting and units like the banshee, which is the greatest joke of all RTS units Blizzard has ever put in a game.

On January 24 2012 06:09 architecture wrote:


Regarding cheese, how is the banshee that different from the DT? I'm not saying the banshee is a good unit, because it's not, it's a unit that fails to have functionality after a window of a few minutes.

But, being able to cheese a better player has always existed. In BW, DT openings/sometimes with shuttle were the epitome of coinflip allins that could net you a win against a better player. But, DT's are a great unit that is useful throughout the game, at least partially because they come from the gateway.

I think the problem with banshees is not cheese, but the same problem that this thread is discussing. Here we have a unit that is only useful in a small set of parameters and has no interesting combat properties, that fits into no overall dynamic. This is basically what Blizzard has done with so many aspects of this game: NOT being able to see the forest from the trees.

On January 24 2012 06:00 komakino wrote:
On a separate point, i don't think there should be more micro or that macro should get easier. Starcraft is an economy based and macro focused game. The Warcraft series, particularly wc3, has always been blizzards micro based rts. There will be a wc4 and it will most likely be micro based and involve hero units just like wc3. Making sc2 more micro intensive would start to turn it into a reskinned wc3. I understand that wc4 is likely a ways off and that many players are not interested in going back to wc3 but I would encourage you to just hold off if you want a micro based game instead of arguing to redesign the existing game.

On January 24 2012 02:18 Big J wrote:


And Losira held Zenio's (???) 8pool two times with hatch first, while a lot of progamers die time and time again in the same situation.

On January 24 2012 05:54 MooseyFate wrote:



I see what you are saying about new players taking games off of the top players, but that should happen in this game as it is not nearly as "figured out" as BW. No one has seen every strategy yet.
Each new GSL season, some player with a previously underused strategy/style does fairly well by exploiting weaknesses in the current metagame. Once the more experienced players play a couple games against them, their success slows down and eventually they stop winning games.

Top Terran players like MMA and MVP are more likely to lose to a well executed P or Z build than to another T build because they don't know the ins and outs of the opponent's race as well as they know their own. Going after the #1 Terran player with the same forces/builds he already knows like the back of his hand is very difficult. Coming at him from a completely foreign (zing!) perspective makes it easier to get in cheap shots and throw them off their game.
Every player should lose games, even the top players, and a lot of these are losses because of build orders/strategies as much as from mistakes and mis-clicks. The latter will happen less with MMA and MVP, but it still happens.

On topic: I think the game has the right amount of difficulty as it stands. It reminds me of the Capcom fighting games, with sort of an inverted bell curve of ability. When you first pick up the game, you can quickly find simple strats that are relatively easy to execute (1a armies are comparable to button mashing in fighters. Sometimes you just get lucky.)
As you start to learn more about the game and metagame, you slightly alter your build into something more complex, losing some of your concentration because it is now split on managing 3 bases and playing for the long haul, not just 1 base-all-in. I know when I did this in ladder, I started losing a lot more than when I was just 7 RR or 6 Pool.
But, eventually being able to execute more and more complex strategies while holding off the easier to execute attacks from my opponent helped me to climb back up on the bell curve.

At one end you have guys that 6 pooled into Masters. On the other you have guys like MMA/MVP. At some point, the 6-pooler will get lucky and pull off his more easily executed strategy against a much better player and take the better player by surprise. I see nothing wrong with this as it keeps all players 'honest' and makes for better tournaments because some unknown underdog can take at least a couple games off of the Best of the Best. Does this mean the game is "easy"? No. Just like in Chess, some guy with a limited knowledge can be doing things that make so little sense to the Chess Master, confusing them and possibly causing them to make silly mistakes.
It's the human element of competitive games, and it's what makes it entertaining to watch for a lot of people.

On January 24 2012 06:20 SupLilSon wrote:


I'd agree with you if MMA and MVP were losing to brilliantly thought out strategies. But thats not the case. They lose to 6 gate pushes because it's absurd. They lose to Protoss deathball because at a certain point no amount of micro or multitasking can overcome that. The game is not horribly imbalanced but there exist a glaring imbalance between effort put in to win as Terran and effort put in to win as the other 2 races (especially protoss). Even Artosis has said that he switched to Protoss because it allowed him to maintain a high playing level while putting considerably less time into practicing and upkeeping his mechanics.