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Do We Want the Game Harder? - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Spray
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States402 Posts
January 23 2012 20:55 GMT
#301
They need to make terran harder, that race is fucking ez


User was warned for this post
HuK Fighting~~!
Iamyournoob
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany595 Posts
January 23 2012 20:56 GMT
#302
The question raised in this thread adresses imo the wrong issue.

You don't need to make the game harder in terms of accessability. Everyone can kick a ball, soccer is easy to learn, yet there are players like Lionel Messi who shine above all.

I don't want the game to be harder, I want it to be better. SC2 has many gameplay and design issues which do not stem from unlimited unit selection, smart casting or automining or whatever.

Units lack micro potential, clumping has its issues, no defender's advantage... The list goes on, there are tons of threads about these topics out there. These are the true issues.

Hell, I'd even say the game is too fast. How do you want to micro when everything disappears in the blink of an eye?
No, the games is mechanically difficult enough. But the game is so poorly designed that players, which could take the mechanical aspects of the game to a higher level, are limited by non-microable units and lack of incentives to split up armies and use apm for multitasking.

And the reason why some players, who are mechanically inferior to others, can still beat big names is due to build order wins, easy-peasy all-ins, lack of scouting and units like the banshee, which is the greatest joke of all RTS units Blizzard has ever put in a game.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
January 23 2012 20:59 GMT
#303
On January 24 2012 04:21 Rassy wrote:
This probably has been mentioned before but where is the option to vote the game should become easier?
This option should at least be in a poll if the game should become more difficult

Annyway:i think the game should become mechanically easier
Not so much the micro, but more the macro.
Atm macro takes to much time compared to the more fun part of microing your units and moving around your armies
so: the game should become "easier"
Unfortunatly this option is not in the poll, so i didnt vote



edit/suplement:

It would not kill sc as an esports,how difficult a game is (mechanically) has little to do with its popularity.
If annything the relation is inverse , definatly after a cerain point.
(example the huge popularity of lol wich is considered an easier game then dota and such, it had 120k vieuwers in kiev)
The skill ceiling will still be near infinite, so easier is relative here, i just means that macro should take less time.
The fun when watching streams is in watching the armys and engagements (at least for me) and not watching players macro.

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..
Writerptrk
komakino
Profile Joined March 2011
United States12 Posts
January 23 2012 21:00 GMT
#304
I got into Starcraft 2 due to, in part, the huge amount of hype over the years about BW. I was always interested in BW but by the time I started looking into the competitive scene, it had already developed to the point that I felt like it would be too much work to catch up to the people still playing. The relative skill difference between the lowest ranks of iccup and the lowest ranks of sc2 is huge. The learning curve was just too steep to comfortably get involved in playing BW super competitively.

With sc2 on the horizon, I decided to get involved at the ground level in order to see how the metagame and strategies developed in order to be a part of the community instead of on the outside trying to get in. A big part of sc2 success is from people like me who knew about brood war but felt that it was either too old or had too tough of a time understanding it. Inevitably, sc2 will get the same way as the community shrinks, expansions are released and the meta game develops. However, as long as the game continues to get exposure, there will continue to be new and inexperienced players for other new players to learn with. I really think that the ladder system (as opposed to the iccup system that required you to be relatively informed to get involved with) will always help bring in new players and make sure they find decent matches.

On a separate point, i don't think there should be more micro or that macro should get easier. Starcraft is an economy based and macro focused game. The Warcraft series, particularly wc3, has always been blizzards micro based rts. There will be a wc4 and it will most likely be micro based and involve hero units just like wc3. Making sc2 more micro intensive would start to turn it into a reskinned wc3. I understand that wc4 is likely a ways off and that many players are not interested in going back to wc3 but I would encourage you to just hold off if you want a micro based game instead of arguing to redesign the existing game.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
January 23 2012 21:03 GMT
#305
On January 24 2012 05:59 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 04:21 Rassy wrote:
This probably has been mentioned before but where is the option to vote the game should become easier?
This option should at least be in a poll if the game should become more difficult

Annyway:i think the game should become mechanically easier
Not so much the micro, but more the macro.
Atm macro takes to much time compared to the more fun part of microing your units and moving around your armies
so: the game should become "easier"
Unfortunatly this option is not in the poll, so i didnt vote



edit/suplement:

It would not kill sc as an esports,how difficult a game is (mechanically) has little to do with its popularity.
If annything the relation is inverse , definatly after a cerain point.
(example the huge popularity of lol wich is considered an easier game then dota and such, it had 120k vieuwers in kiev)
The skill ceiling will still be near infinite, so easier is relative here, i just means that macro should take less time.
The fun when watching streams is in watching the armys and engagements (at least for me) and not watching players macro.

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..


you should play dawn of war 2 if you think sc2 macro cannot be made easier.
rolfe
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1266 Posts
January 23 2012 21:05 GMT
#306
On January 24 2012 05:59 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 04:21 Rassy wrote:
This probably has been mentioned before but where is the option to vote the game should become easier?
This option should at least be in a poll if the game should become more difficult

Annyway:i think the game should become mechanically easier
Not so much the micro, but more the macro.
Atm macro takes to much time compared to the more fun part of microing your units and moving around your armies
so: the game should become "easier"
Unfortunatly this option is not in the poll, so i didnt vote



edit/suplement:

It would not kill sc as an esports,how difficult a game is (mechanically) has little to do with its popularity.
If annything the relation is inverse , definatly after a cerain point.
(example the huge popularity of lol wich is considered an easier game then dota and such, it had 120k vieuwers in kiev)
The skill ceiling will still be near infinite, so easier is relative here, i just means that macro should take less time.
The fun when watching streams is in watching the armys and engagements (at least for me) and not watching players macro.

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..

i remember when some people used to argue that queens should have auto larva inject lol
life will not be contained. Life breaks free, it expands to new territories and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously but there it is. Life finds a way
Gosi
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Sweden9072 Posts
January 23 2012 21:06 GMT
#307
On January 24 2012 05:59 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 04:21 Rassy wrote:
This probably has been mentioned before but where is the option to vote the game should become easier?
This option should at least be in a poll if the game should become more difficult

Annyway:i think the game should become mechanically easier
Not so much the micro, but more the macro.
Atm macro takes to much time compared to the more fun part of microing your units and moving around your armies
so: the game should become "easier"
Unfortunatly this option is not in the poll, so i didnt vote



edit/suplement:

It would not kill sc as an esports,how difficult a game is (mechanically) has little to do with its popularity.
If annything the relation is inverse , definatly after a cerain point.
(example the huge popularity of lol wich is considered an easier game then dota and such, it had 120k vieuwers in kiev)
The skill ceiling will still be near infinite, so easier is relative here, i just means that macro should take less time.
The fun when watching streams is in watching the armys and engagements (at least for me) and not watching players macro.

I'm curious, how would you make macro easier in sc2? It's already at its easiest point imo ..

Eh don't mind him. He is just playing the wrong game. Sounds to me that he should play something like wc3 or some less competitive RTS like Red Alert or Supreme Commander where you focus on battle and units like he wants it.

Also the "Atm macro takes to much time compared to the more fun part of microing your units and moving around your armies" is a big deal when it comes to Starcraft. For Rassy and many many other players this is hard and they kinda fall apart with this kind of multitasking and that is one thing that sets bad players apart from good players that actually can manage their bases while roaming around on the map and dropping. Blizzard would be crazy to make this kind of thing easier.
[13:40] <Qbek> gosi i dreanmt about you
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
January 23 2012 21:07 GMT
#308
Looking at the finals rom kiev where mma dominated dimaga on terminus RE I think the game needs to be harder. One of the casters asked what can you possibly do to stop MMA and I sincerely wondered the same: His macro never slipped, his decision making was very good, and his micro is obviously top notch. There's not much room left for improvement, I think people will soon hit the ceiling in sc2.
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
January 23 2012 21:09 GMT
#309
On January 24 2012 05:56 Iamyournoob wrote:
The question raised in this thread adresses imo the wrong issue.

You don't need to make the game harder in terms of accessability. Everyone can kick a ball, soccer is easy to learn, yet there are players like Lionel Messi who shine above all.

I don't want the game to be harder, I want it to be better. SC2 has many gameplay and design issues which do not stem from unlimited unit selection, smart casting or automining or whatever.

Units lack micro potential, clumping has its issues, no defender's advantage... The list goes on, there are tons of threads about these topics out there. These are the true issues.

Hell, I'd even say the game is too fast. How do you want to micro when everything disappears in the blink of an eye?
No, the games is mechanically difficult enough. But the game is so poorly designed that players, which could take the mechanical aspects of the game to a higher level, are limited by non-microable units and lack of incentives to split up armies and use apm for multitasking.

And the reason why some players, who are mechanically inferior to others, can still beat big names is due to build order wins, easy-peasy all-ins, lack of scouting and units like the banshee, which is the greatest joke of all RTS units Blizzard has ever put in a game.


Regarding cheese, how is the banshee that different from the DT? I'm not saying the banshee is a good unit, because it's not, it's a unit that fails to have functionality after a window of a few minutes.

But, being able to cheese a better player has always existed. In BW, DT openings/sometimes with shuttle were the epitome of coinflip allins that could net you a win against a better player. But, DT's are a great unit that is useful throughout the game, at least partially because they come from the gateway.

I think the problem with banshees is not cheese, but the same problem that this thread is discussing. Here we have a unit that is only useful in a small set of parameters and has no interesting combat properties, that fits into no overall dynamic. This is basically what Blizzard has done with so many aspects of this game: NOT being able to see the forest from the trees.
tpfkan
storm44
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1293 Posts
January 23 2012 21:10 GMT
#310
On January 24 2012 06:09 architecture wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 05:56 Iamyournoob wrote:
The question raised in this thread adresses imo the wrong issue.

You don't need to make the game harder in terms of accessability. Everyone can kick a ball, soccer is easy to learn, yet there are players like Lionel Messi who shine above all.

I don't want the game to be harder, I want it to be better. SC2 has many gameplay and design issues which do not stem from unlimited unit selection, smart casting or automining or whatever.

Units lack micro potential, clumping has its issues, no defender's advantage... The list goes on, there are tons of threads about these topics out there. These are the true issues.

Hell, I'd even say the game is too fast. How do you want to micro when everything disappears in the blink of an eye?
No, the games is mechanically difficult enough. But the game is so poorly designed that players, which could take the mechanical aspects of the game to a higher level, are limited by non-microable units and lack of incentives to split up armies and use apm for multitasking.

And the reason why some players, who are mechanically inferior to others, can still beat big names is due to build order wins, easy-peasy all-ins, lack of scouting and units like the banshee, which is the greatest joke of all RTS units Blizzard has ever put in a game.


Regarding cheese, how is the banshee that different from the DT? I'm not saying the banshee is a good unit, because it's not, it's a unit that fails to have functionality after a window of a few minutes.

But, being able to cheese a better player has always existed. In BW, DT openings/sometimes with shuttle were the epitome of coinflip allins that could net you a win against a better player. But, DT's are a great unit that is useful throughout the game, at least partially because they come from the gateway.

I think the problem with banshees is not cheese, but the same problem that this thread is discussing. Here we have a unit that is only useful in a small set of parameters and has no interesting combat properties, that fits into no overall dynamic. This is basically what Blizzard has done with so many aspects of this game: NOT being able to see the forest from the trees.

nice try painuser
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 21:13:18
January 23 2012 21:12 GMT
#311
He's got a point, would you rather have a unit that you could ONLY DT rush with? Or a unit that is potentially useful throughout the game. I'd rather have a DT that comes out of the barracks.
tpfkan
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 21:16:37
January 23 2012 21:14 GMT
#312
On January 24 2012 06:00 komakino wrote:
On a separate point, i don't think there should be more micro or that macro should get easier. Starcraft is an economy based and macro focused game. The Warcraft series, particularly wc3, has always been blizzards micro based rts. There will be a wc4 and it will most likely be micro based and involve hero units just like wc3. Making sc2 more micro intensive would start to turn it into a reskinned wc3. I understand that wc4 is likely a ways off and that many players are not interested in going back to wc3 but I would encourage you to just hold off if you want a micro based game instead of arguing to redesign the existing game.


I think a couple complaints got exaggerated as a reaction to Warcraft 3. One was that WC3 units died too slowly, therefore we need units that die extremely fast, as a result we got units that die ridiculously fast and engagements that are finished in a few seconds.

The second that Starcraft BW was a macro game and Warcraft 3 was a micro game. In reality, Starcraft BW is both. That's what has always made it so impressive. You're creating these giant armies, but at the same time, you're poking around with a shuttle and a reaver, or setting off all these storms, or throwing down dark swarms and hopping lurkers forward with cracklings running through.

Both are crucial to make it as exciting as it is. Take away macro and you get DoW or WC3 or in the most extreme form: LoL or HoN. Take away micro and you get SupCom2. And of those all, SupCom2 is the least viewer friendly.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5478 Posts
January 23 2012 21:14 GMT
#313
On January 24 2012 02:18 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 02:02 thezanursic wrote:
On January 24 2012 01:43 MCDayC wrote:
The only question is whether SC2 has a skill cap reachable by humans. I would say that it doesn't, that, like Brood War, we will never seen humans perfectly execute a game that's not a 5 minute cheese. If the skill cap is above what is physically possible, then talk about hardness doesn't matter. At that point, game difficultly is entirely decided by competition. The reason why people say BW is so hard is because of the competition. Over a decade of mechanical and strategical development has meant that competing in BW is crushingly difficult.

A perfectly executed defense would still die to a not nearly perfect cheese if the BO advantage was such. We aren't arguing if the game skill cap was reached the problem are luck based engagements and not being able to get yourself back in the lead if you made a small mistake and your overall skill is a lot bigger or simply said skill not giving a big enough benefit to overcome a BO advantage or an SMALL early mistake.
I'll give an example recently in bw PvP bisu managed to destroy a greedy protoss who went an FE with delayed goon range he DESTROYED the other player next week we had the same situation between two mid level progamers and the protoss just couldn't kill the other protoss without any early game mistakes it just came to micro and maybe a better executed timing, but the goons still hadn't had range in both situations.


And Losira held Zenio's (???) 8pool two times with hatch first, while a lot of progamers die time and time again in the same situation.

Thats good but thats not enough if it were then we would see more constant results from people and ZvZ is one of the most skill based MUs it's basically who can drone more and defend with the least banelings, but PvP is just horrible in that regard.
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
January 23 2012 21:15 GMT
#314
WC3 is only slow at the start.

Mid/late game fights are extremely fast paced, and fairly hard to keep up with from both a player and viewer perspective. There's just too much going on.
tpfkan
EleanorRIgby
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada3923 Posts
January 23 2012 21:16 GMT
#315
On January 24 2012 06:14 thezanursic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 02:18 Big J wrote:
On January 24 2012 02:02 thezanursic wrote:
On January 24 2012 01:43 MCDayC wrote:
The only question is whether SC2 has a skill cap reachable by humans. I would say that it doesn't, that, like Brood War, we will never seen humans perfectly execute a game that's not a 5 minute cheese. If the skill cap is above what is physically possible, then talk about hardness doesn't matter. At that point, game difficultly is entirely decided by competition. The reason why people say BW is so hard is because of the competition. Over a decade of mechanical and strategical development has meant that competing in BW is crushingly difficult.

A perfectly executed defense would still die to a not nearly perfect cheese if the BO advantage was such. We aren't arguing if the game skill cap was reached the problem are luck based engagements and not being able to get yourself back in the lead if you made a small mistake and your overall skill is a lot bigger or simply said skill not giving a big enough benefit to overcome a BO advantage or an SMALL early mistake.
I'll give an example recently in bw PvP bisu managed to destroy a greedy protoss who went an FE with delayed goon range he DESTROYED the other player next week we had the same situation between two mid level progamers and the protoss just couldn't kill the other protoss without any early game mistakes it just came to micro and maybe a better executed timing, but the goons still hadn't had range in both situations.


And Losira held Zenio's (???) 8pool two times with hatch first, while a lot of progamers die time and time again in the same situation.

Thats good but thats not enough if it were then we would see more constant results from people and ZvZ is one of the most skill based MUs it's basically who can drone more and defend with the least banelings, but PvP is just horrible in that regard.


i think i have seen losira hold a 6pool drone all in with a hatch first, pretty crazy defence
savior did nothing wrong
omgimonfire15
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States233 Posts
January 23 2012 21:18 GMT
#316
I highly doubt that the skill ceiling has been reached.

As for making the game harder, one should not just make the entire game harder per say, but create options that are hard to execute, pay back greatly, and are not necessary for the casual gamer. Like marine splitting, if you can do it, you get great return vs banelings. If you can't sucks, but it isn't the end of the world and its not like you can't play the game anymore. Someone mentioned before carrier micro. I wouldn't say "harder" is the right term to use, but more rewarding.

As for making the entire game harder by putting in silly oldschool mechanics like broodwar AI movement and workers being unable to automine is silly. Make the game better by progressing, not regressing.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
January 23 2012 21:20 GMT
#317
On January 24 2012 05:54 MooseyFate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 04:23 SupLilSon wrote:
MVP/NesTea/etc. These guys trained in professional BW settings for years, solidifying their RTS experience and skills. In less than 1 year, people who have never played RTS games before can take games off these guys due to the lack of mechanical skill required to play Protoss and Zerg. I'm sorry but MVP and MMA should never lose a game to someone like TiTaN or BlinG or NaniWa. You would never see a Chess grandmaster lose to an amatuer. Theres a pretty clear reason why we've been able to see a number of Protoss and Zerg foreigner champions compete with Koreans but not a single foreigner Terran has ever come close. SC2 Terran at least requires some degree of mechanical skill and mastering of techniques to remain potent at the pro level. Zerg and Protoss are almost all "macro" and 1a. I put macro in quotes because it is such a reduced and watered down version of SC1 macro that it's laughable.

This might sound like whining, but hey, you'd be hard pressed to find a pro that disagrees.



I see what you are saying about new players taking games off of the top players, but that should happen in this game as it is not nearly as "figured out" as BW. No one has seen every strategy yet.
Each new GSL season, some player with a previously underused strategy/style does fairly well by exploiting weaknesses in the current metagame. Once the more experienced players play a couple games against them, their success slows down and eventually they stop winning games.

Top Terran players like MMA and MVP are more likely to lose to a well executed P or Z build than to another T build because they don't know the ins and outs of the opponent's race as well as they know their own. Going after the #1 Terran player with the same forces/builds he already knows like the back of his hand is very difficult. Coming at him from a completely foreign (zing!) perspective makes it easier to get in cheap shots and throw them off their game.
Every player should lose games, even the top players, and a lot of these are losses because of build orders/strategies as much as from mistakes and mis-clicks. The latter will happen less with MMA and MVP, but it still happens.

On topic: I think the game has the right amount of difficulty as it stands. It reminds me of the Capcom fighting games, with sort of an inverted bell curve of ability. When you first pick up the game, you can quickly find simple strats that are relatively easy to execute (1a armies are comparable to button mashing in fighters. Sometimes you just get lucky.)
As you start to learn more about the game and metagame, you slightly alter your build into something more complex, losing some of your concentration because it is now split on managing 3 bases and playing for the long haul, not just 1 base-all-in. I know when I did this in ladder, I started losing a lot more than when I was just 7 RR or 6 Pool.
But, eventually being able to execute more and more complex strategies while holding off the easier to execute attacks from my opponent helped me to climb back up on the bell curve.

At one end you have guys that 6 pooled into Masters. On the other you have guys like MMA/MVP. At some point, the 6-pooler will get lucky and pull off his more easily executed strategy against a much better player and take the better player by surprise. I see nothing wrong with this as it keeps all players 'honest' and makes for better tournaments because some unknown underdog can take at least a couple games off of the Best of the Best. Does this mean the game is "easy"? No. Just like in Chess, some guy with a limited knowledge can be doing things that make so little sense to the Chess Master, confusing them and possibly causing them to make silly mistakes.
It's the human element of competitive games, and it's what makes it entertaining to watch for a lot of people.




I'd agree with you if MMA and MVP were losing to brilliantly thought out strategies. But thats not the case. They lose to 6 gate pushes because it's absurd. They lose to Protoss deathball because at a certain point no amount of micro or multitasking can overcome that. The game is not horribly imbalanced but there exist a glaring imbalance between effort put in to win as Terran and effort put in to win as the other 2 races (especially protoss). Even Artosis has said that he switched to Protoss because it allowed him to maintain a high playing level while putting considerably less time into practicing and upkeeping his mechanics.
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
January 23 2012 21:20 GMT
#318
I think the game is at the right level right now to allow for competetive depth while still staying reasonably simple to appeal to the mainstream. If the goal was purely competition, I would definitely say that increasing the skill requirements would be desirable, but keeping the game accessible for players who are new or simply don't have the time to invest in the game practice-wise is equally important to maintaining a healthy community and industry. So on that level, I don't believe that the game needs to get any harder.
Valikyr
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2653 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 21:24:35
January 23 2012 21:21 GMT
#319
I don't think the macro mechanics need to be as hard as BW, adding chrono-boost/inject etc was great but they should remove auto-mining or something to make macro harder and set better players apart from worse even more.

As for micro and units I think a lot of improvements can be made. Too many units are just plain boring with very little potential for micro. Blizzard should really think about each unit and what potential the unit has both for beginners and pros when it comes to control, not how cool the lasers are... Abilities like concussive shield/fungal/force-field are just retarded too. We want people to micro, not prevent them from doing so.
Valikyr
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2653 Posts
January 23 2012 21:24 GMT
#320
On January 24 2012 06:20 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 05:54 MooseyFate wrote:
On January 24 2012 04:23 SupLilSon wrote:
MVP/NesTea/etc. These guys trained in professional BW settings for years, solidifying their RTS experience and skills. In less than 1 year, people who have never played RTS games before can take games off these guys due to the lack of mechanical skill required to play Protoss and Zerg. I'm sorry but MVP and MMA should never lose a game to someone like TiTaN or BlinG or NaniWa. You would never see a Chess grandmaster lose to an amatuer. Theres a pretty clear reason why we've been able to see a number of Protoss and Zerg foreigner champions compete with Koreans but not a single foreigner Terran has ever come close. SC2 Terran at least requires some degree of mechanical skill and mastering of techniques to remain potent at the pro level. Zerg and Protoss are almost all "macro" and 1a. I put macro in quotes because it is such a reduced and watered down version of SC1 macro that it's laughable.

This might sound like whining, but hey, you'd be hard pressed to find a pro that disagrees.



I see what you are saying about new players taking games off of the top players, but that should happen in this game as it is not nearly as "figured out" as BW. No one has seen every strategy yet.
Each new GSL season, some player with a previously underused strategy/style does fairly well by exploiting weaknesses in the current metagame. Once the more experienced players play a couple games against them, their success slows down and eventually they stop winning games.

Top Terran players like MMA and MVP are more likely to lose to a well executed P or Z build than to another T build because they don't know the ins and outs of the opponent's race as well as they know their own. Going after the #1 Terran player with the same forces/builds he already knows like the back of his hand is very difficult. Coming at him from a completely foreign (zing!) perspective makes it easier to get in cheap shots and throw them off their game.
Every player should lose games, even the top players, and a lot of these are losses because of build orders/strategies as much as from mistakes and mis-clicks. The latter will happen less with MMA and MVP, but it still happens.

On topic: I think the game has the right amount of difficulty as it stands. It reminds me of the Capcom fighting games, with sort of an inverted bell curve of ability. When you first pick up the game, you can quickly find simple strats that are relatively easy to execute (1a armies are comparable to button mashing in fighters. Sometimes you just get lucky.)
As you start to learn more about the game and metagame, you slightly alter your build into something more complex, losing some of your concentration because it is now split on managing 3 bases and playing for the long haul, not just 1 base-all-in. I know when I did this in ladder, I started losing a lot more than when I was just 7 RR or 6 Pool.
But, eventually being able to execute more and more complex strategies while holding off the easier to execute attacks from my opponent helped me to climb back up on the bell curve.

At one end you have guys that 6 pooled into Masters. On the other you have guys like MMA/MVP. At some point, the 6-pooler will get lucky and pull off his more easily executed strategy against a much better player and take the better player by surprise. I see nothing wrong with this as it keeps all players 'honest' and makes for better tournaments because some unknown underdog can take at least a couple games off of the Best of the Best. Does this mean the game is "easy"? No. Just like in Chess, some guy with a limited knowledge can be doing things that make so little sense to the Chess Master, confusing them and possibly causing them to make silly mistakes.
It's the human element of competitive games, and it's what makes it entertaining to watch for a lot of people.




I'd agree with you if MMA and MVP were losing to brilliantly thought out strategies. But thats not the case. They lose to 6 gate pushes because it's absurd. They lose to Protoss deathball because at a certain point no amount of micro or multitasking can overcome that. The game is not horribly imbalanced but there exist a glaring imbalance between effort put in to win as Terran and effort put in to win as the other 2 races (especially protoss). Even Artosis has said that he switched to Protoss because it allowed him to maintain a high playing level while putting considerably less time into practicing and upkeeping his mechanics.

Artosis said he thought protoss would let him do that, but he later realized it didn't (and it kind of shows at his current skill, doesn't it?). Don't quote-mine please.
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