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Do We Want the Game Harder? - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
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architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
January 23 2012 21:26 GMT
#321
Actually what needs to be done is to nerf/remove all macro mechanics.

Part of the reason this game is such a mess right now is because stuff is designed the overwhelming strength of the mechanics. Without them, you'd have a more balanced and evenly paced game, instead of being able to sprint ahead with any BO disadvantage.

In BW, good play and drawing the game out was an extremely viable way to come back from being behind 1-2m from a BO disadvantage. In SC2, there is no recovery.
tpfkan
r_con
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States824 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 21:27:39
January 23 2012 21:27 GMT
#322
On January 24 2012 05:54 Falling wrote:
I don't really see why this needs to be mutually exclusive. The sorts of things I would like added would keep the skill the same for bronzies, but allow for greater levels of skill for pro's. For instance- muta micro, wraith micro, vulture micro. The mechanics to do those sorts of micro tricks while macroing at the same time is insane. But those same units can be 1a just the same (or move command with the mouse if you don't even know about attack move.) They just weren't nearly as effective when in the hands of the pro's. But mutalisks are pretty straightforward. Grab 12, move them forward to attack, grab the next 12, rinse repeat. But to take away the rapid reflex, muta control that could dart into a base to pick up stray units at will- why would we ever take that away when nothing better replaces it?

Carrier micro too- noobs would use them just the same as 1a, but pro's could attack retreat and hover across cliffs. Reavers were actually easy to use- they just weren't very effective without micro. But you could send them on their poky way or leave them for defence.

Ok, so maybe getting rid of smart casting would make things harder for noobs. But honestly, real newbs don't really use those sorts of units anyways. And if they did, I'm sure they would be just as happy to fire off one really awesome spell that killed stuff than to spam 't' with little discernible difference to the marauders, tanks or roaches.

Or take Dark Swarm- zerg was easy to use as newb. Make banks of hatcheries so you can select 12 larvae at a time and build 200 zerglings and send them at a base. True newbs with their 12-40 apm aren't going to use Dark Swarm anyways. But it's a tool that can be used by even D- or E players going on iCCup.


And that's why I don't really see it as mutually exclusive. Newbs will gravitate to the easier to use units and experiment with the cool ones. (I taught one guy to macro, but then he just made masses of goliaths so that he could have 6 control groups to 1a2a3a4a5a6a across the map. He eventually learned that straight goliaths is a bad strategy.) But you don't take away tools for the pro's to use.

And if we're talking about problems of making the game harder- Blizzard kinda already did that with the arbitrary macro mechanics. Consider, if Protoss didn't have chronoboost, how would it be balanced? Why the build times would be sped up. What about inject larvae? Larvae would spawn faster or Zerg units would become tougher. They've pulled out some pretty straight forward stuff to make the game harder and rebalanced the timings and cost based on that. When really it could have been buried in adjusting the numbers a bit and forget about the macro mechanics altogether.


agreed. true noobs don't really care about ease of use, they have larger mental hurdles. Getting over the mental hurdle of playing fast is huge . Most people don't even use hotkeys, they don't care at all about ease of use. The biggest thing a new player is gonna want is just multiple unit selection, but alot of other things, even auto mine, most people won't even notice. So many people don't even know about buildings rally. Most bad players don't even notice shit like smart casting, and all the subtle shit, they just want to build shit.
Flash Fan!
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
January 23 2012 21:27 GMT
#323
On January 24 2012 06:24 Valikyr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 06:20 SupLilSon wrote:
On January 24 2012 05:54 MooseyFate wrote:
On January 24 2012 04:23 SupLilSon wrote:
MVP/NesTea/etc. These guys trained in professional BW settings for years, solidifying their RTS experience and skills. In less than 1 year, people who have never played RTS games before can take games off these guys due to the lack of mechanical skill required to play Protoss and Zerg. I'm sorry but MVP and MMA should never lose a game to someone like TiTaN or BlinG or NaniWa. You would never see a Chess grandmaster lose to an amatuer. Theres a pretty clear reason why we've been able to see a number of Protoss and Zerg foreigner champions compete with Koreans but not a single foreigner Terran has ever come close. SC2 Terran at least requires some degree of mechanical skill and mastering of techniques to remain potent at the pro level. Zerg and Protoss are almost all "macro" and 1a. I put macro in quotes because it is such a reduced and watered down version of SC1 macro that it's laughable.

This might sound like whining, but hey, you'd be hard pressed to find a pro that disagrees.



I see what you are saying about new players taking games off of the top players, but that should happen in this game as it is not nearly as "figured out" as BW. No one has seen every strategy yet.
Each new GSL season, some player with a previously underused strategy/style does fairly well by exploiting weaknesses in the current metagame. Once the more experienced players play a couple games against them, their success slows down and eventually they stop winning games.

Top Terran players like MMA and MVP are more likely to lose to a well executed P or Z build than to another T build because they don't know the ins and outs of the opponent's race as well as they know their own. Going after the #1 Terran player with the same forces/builds he already knows like the back of his hand is very difficult. Coming at him from a completely foreign (zing!) perspective makes it easier to get in cheap shots and throw them off their game.
Every player should lose games, even the top players, and a lot of these are losses because of build orders/strategies as much as from mistakes and mis-clicks. The latter will happen less with MMA and MVP, but it still happens.

On topic: I think the game has the right amount of difficulty as it stands. It reminds me of the Capcom fighting games, with sort of an inverted bell curve of ability. When you first pick up the game, you can quickly find simple strats that are relatively easy to execute (1a armies are comparable to button mashing in fighters. Sometimes you just get lucky.)
As you start to learn more about the game and metagame, you slightly alter your build into something more complex, losing some of your concentration because it is now split on managing 3 bases and playing for the long haul, not just 1 base-all-in. I know when I did this in ladder, I started losing a lot more than when I was just 7 RR or 6 Pool.
But, eventually being able to execute more and more complex strategies while holding off the easier to execute attacks from my opponent helped me to climb back up on the bell curve.

At one end you have guys that 6 pooled into Masters. On the other you have guys like MMA/MVP. At some point, the 6-pooler will get lucky and pull off his more easily executed strategy against a much better player and take the better player by surprise. I see nothing wrong with this as it keeps all players 'honest' and makes for better tournaments because some unknown underdog can take at least a couple games off of the Best of the Best. Does this mean the game is "easy"? No. Just like in Chess, some guy with a limited knowledge can be doing things that make so little sense to the Chess Master, confusing them and possibly causing them to make silly mistakes.
It's the human element of competitive games, and it's what makes it entertaining to watch for a lot of people.




I'd agree with you if MMA and MVP were losing to brilliantly thought out strategies. But thats not the case. They lose to 6 gate pushes because it's absurd. They lose to Protoss deathball because at a certain point no amount of micro or multitasking can overcome that. The game is not horribly imbalanced but there exist a glaring imbalance between effort put in to win as Terran and effort put in to win as the other 2 races (especially protoss). Even Artosis has said that he switched to Protoss because it allowed him to maintain a high playing level while putting considerably less time into practicing and upkeeping his mechanics.

Artosis said he thought protoss would let him do that, but he later realized it didn't (and it kind of shows at his current skill, doesn't it?). Don't quote-mine please.


I didn't quote mine... that is something he said, exactly in that context.
XiGua
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden3085 Posts
January 23 2012 21:28 GMT
#324
Raise the skill ceiling but not the skill required to play the game. New micro mechanics and anti-"ball vs ball" units like lurkers and siege tanks that can zone control would be SOOOOOO nice.

I don't think Blizzard understands what micro really is because they keep adding spell-casters instead of new unit relations that are awesome like marines vs banelings. Spell-casters are nice but when they start to LIMIT micro like fungal growth and instant EMP you kind of feel like something is wrong...

Units like collosus is a no no, units like marines and banelings are yes yes!
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) APM, Why u make me spam?
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
January 23 2012 21:31 GMT
#325
On January 24 2012 02:42 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 02:34 Whitewing wrote:
On January 24 2012 02:27 orangesunglasses wrote:
On January 24 2012 00:27 Whitewing wrote:
On January 24 2012 00:23 Sawamura wrote:
On January 24 2012 00:18 Whitewing wrote:
When players are playing perfectly you can complain about skill caps being too low and the game being too easy. For a so called 'easy' game, people sure make a lot of mistakes.


I see (T)firebathero and (T)Flash getting supply block in the middle phase of the game . Bw must be easy because they do make a lot of mistakes too.


That was exactly my point -_-. Neither game is 'easy', they're just 'different'.



no sc2 is easy compared to BW

its a simple fact of math. macro in sc2 is easier so is micro. strats the same

so we have a 2-0 in favor of BW


Are you that dense?

Easier =/= easy. Knocking down the CN tower with one punch is easier than breaking the entire planet in half with one punch, that doesn't mean it's easy.

And it's not clear that micro is easier in SC2 than it is in Brood War. Simpler? Yes. It is much simpler, unit control isn't nearly as complex. But complexity and difficulty are not the same thing, units die much faster in SC2 and move faster as well, which means controlling them properly requires more speed and accuracy, as well as much more caution since the slightest mistake can mean a dead army. In Brood War, units died a bit slower and didn't move nearly as fast on the whole, so controlling them was more a question of know-how than a question of raw speed and accuracy. That said, due to the slower movement speed and dying rate in BW, you were able to properly control more units at once.



Why would it require MORE speed and accuracy? There's only a max amount of speed someone could even feasibly put into the game. Besides that i think you are missing the point. Look at the new units. Collossus. Reaver. Hrm can't quite put my finger on the difference..


It requires more speed and more accuracy with actions to control a faster unit than a slow one. There's a very simple way to show this: turn your game speed down and watch what happens.

Slow units require less accuracy to control, because if you click wrong the first few times, it still hasn't completed the action so you can fix it. It also requires more accuracy to control units that die fast, because one misclick and you could lose it in a hurry without time to fix the mistake, while a slow unit gives you more time, and since it dies slower, even if it gets hit you might be able to pull it back.

Micro itself was easier in brood war, but it was more complicated and required significantly more understanding and knowledge of the game to do so. An obvious example is that, despite several a level brood war pros transferring over like Forgg, they very obviously aren't executing very well on a lot of micro tricks that would help a ton. ThorZaiN's insane marine split against siege tanks is a fantastic example of some micro that most pros haven't been doing and aren't doing well now, despite many of them having had brood war micro practice.

But you can't look at these things in a vacuum. While micro may have been easier, multi-tasking everything was more difficult, since you had to micro, macro (which I agree was much harder than it is now), and do everything else at the same time to be really good.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
January 23 2012 21:34 GMT
#326
On January 24 2012 06:28 XiGua wrote:
Raise the skill ceiling but not the skill required to play the game. New micro mechanics and anti-"ball vs ball" units like lurkers and siege tanks that can zone control would be SOOOOOO nice.

I don't think Blizzard understands what micro really is because they keep adding spell-casters instead of new unit relations that are awesome like marines vs banelings. Spell-casters are nice but when they start to LIMIT micro like fungal growth and instant EMP you kind of feel like something is wrong...

Units like collosus is a no no, units like marines and banelings are yes yes!


I think the relationship between banes and marines is also poor.

Lurkers may not be viable in SC2 for a number of reasons, but look at the original relationship: lurkers - require babysitting + micro, marines require babysitting and micro.

Lurkers are far more interesting than banelings ever were. Mind boggling how much Blizzard manages to fuck up.

tpfkan
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
January 23 2012 21:36 GMT
#327
On January 24 2012 06:34 architecture wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 06:28 XiGua wrote:
Raise the skill ceiling but not the skill required to play the game. New micro mechanics and anti-"ball vs ball" units like lurkers and siege tanks that can zone control would be SOOOOOO nice.

I don't think Blizzard understands what micro really is because they keep adding spell-casters instead of new unit relations that are awesome like marines vs banelings. Spell-casters are nice but when they start to LIMIT micro like fungal growth and instant EMP you kind of feel like something is wrong...

Units like collosus is a no no, units like marines and banelings are yes yes!


I think the relationship between banes and marines is also poor.

Lurkers may not be viable in SC2 for a number of reasons, but look at the original relationship: lurkers - require babysitting + micro, marines require babysitting and micro.

Lurkers are far more interesting than banelings ever were. Mind boggling how much Blizzard manages to fuck up.



Easy. As long as it is fancy or cool, put it in.
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
Ysellian
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands9029 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 21:40:17
January 23 2012 21:38 GMT
#328
Removing auto-mining would be silly. I don't understand why someone would want to play a game where you have to drag each retarded worker to the mineral line. I didn't like it back in 1998 and I certainly don't expect it now in 2012. But what I do agree on is that unit design needs to be changed. At the moment a Hellion is nearly as effective at the hands of a random bronze league player as a vulture micro'd by fantasy. Just doesn't seem right to me.

obnoxkid
Profile Joined September 2010
United States23 Posts
January 23 2012 21:42 GMT
#329
The game can be easy (cater to the average gamer), with a higher skill cap. I think this will be the perfect scenario.

I don't think WoL has reached is ceiling yet in terms of skill as I see pro's pushing the game further and further still.
LilClinkin
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Australia667 Posts
January 23 2012 21:50 GMT
#330
OP where do you pull your numbers from? I bet you made them out of thin air.

I highly doubt that only 5% of the SC2 player base were BW fans as well. BW sold millions of copies and was pirated countless million times more. Tracking concrete sales data for SC2 is difficult, but I'd estimate it's sold about 6-7million copies to date. This may be slightly more than the retail sales for BW, however consider the following: A. The market is much larger today than it was 10 years ago B. People purchase duplicate copies of SC2 for multi-region access, and C. BW was pirated on a massive scale, whilst pirating SC2 is quite difficult. It's clear that SC2 hasn't really brought in a higher net total of players at all...definitely nothing on the scale to suggest your 95%/5% figures are accurate.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
January 23 2012 21:52 GMT
#331
yes. game needs to be more difficult. tired of the randomness or luck involved. In sc2 I look at the pros and I don't think too much of their play since it is not hard to replicate their play. But in BW it is impossible for me to replicate their play. Thus, when I watch SC2 I go "meh". There is no wow factor (sometimes there is like MMA, jjaki, leenock, and mvp). In bw I am always in awe and it is a joy to watch their gosu skills.
TerransHill
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany572 Posts
January 23 2012 21:56 GMT
#332
On January 24 2012 06:27 r_con wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 05:54 Falling wrote:
I don't really see why this needs to be mutually exclusive. The sorts of things I would like added would keep the skill the same for bronzies, but allow for greater levels of skill for pro's. For instance- muta micro, wraith micro, vulture micro. The mechanics to do those sorts of micro tricks while macroing at the same time is insane. But those same units can be 1a just the same (or move command with the mouse if you don't even know about attack move.) They just weren't nearly as effective when in the hands of the pro's. But mutalisks are pretty straightforward. Grab 12, move them forward to attack, grab the next 12, rinse repeat. But to take away the rapid reflex, muta control that could dart into a base to pick up stray units at will- why would we ever take that away when nothing better replaces it?

Carrier micro too- noobs would use them just the same as 1a, but pro's could attack retreat and hover across cliffs. Reavers were actually easy to use- they just weren't very effective without micro. But you could send them on their poky way or leave them for defence.

Ok, so maybe getting rid of smart casting would make things harder for noobs. But honestly, real newbs don't really use those sorts of units anyways. And if they did, I'm sure they would be just as happy to fire off one really awesome spell that killed stuff than to spam 't' with little discernible difference to the marauders, tanks or roaches.

Or take Dark Swarm- zerg was easy to use as newb. Make banks of hatcheries so you can select 12 larvae at a time and build 200 zerglings and send them at a base. True newbs with their 12-40 apm aren't going to use Dark Swarm anyways. But it's a tool that can be used by even D- or E players going on iCCup.


And that's why I don't really see it as mutually exclusive. Newbs will gravitate to the easier to use units and experiment with the cool ones. (I taught one guy to macro, but then he just made masses of goliaths so that he could have 6 control groups to 1a2a3a4a5a6a across the map. He eventually learned that straight goliaths is a bad strategy.) But you don't take away tools for the pro's to use.

And if we're talking about problems of making the game harder- Blizzard kinda already did that with the arbitrary macro mechanics. Consider, if Protoss didn't have chronoboost, how would it be balanced? Why the build times would be sped up. What about inject larvae? Larvae would spawn faster or Zerg units would become tougher. They've pulled out some pretty straight forward stuff to make the game harder and rebalanced the timings and cost based on that. When really it could have been buried in adjusting the numbers a bit and forget about the macro mechanics altogether.


agreed. true noobs don't really care about ease of use, they have larger mental hurdles. Getting over the mental hurdle of playing fast is huge . Most people don't even use hotkeys, they don't care at all about ease of use. The biggest thing a new player is gonna want is just multiple unit selection, but alot of other things, even auto mine, most people won't even notice. So many people don't even know about buildings rally. Most bad players don't even notice shit like smart casting, and all the subtle shit, they just want to build shit.


Thats just wrong u talk about noobs like they are stupid little children. And u talk like there would only be total noobs and pros. What you wrote might be true for a guy who never played rts before, buys the game and quits after 1 week. Actually iam pretty sure the majority of players know and use all the units and would probably quit if u made the mechanics even harder.
Respect my authoritah!!
Vicarios
Profile Joined March 2011
56 Posts
January 23 2012 21:57 GMT
#333
game should slowly become more difficult ( removing clumsy units like the thor is a good start ).
but so many people write that it s "stupid easy" and totally should become harder...
are u all GM's? ..think people should look a bit more on the improving side if they complain so much about this game being so easy.
cmen15
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1519 Posts
January 23 2012 21:57 GMT
#334
On January 23 2012 21:11 Blazinghand wrote:
The hardness of the game is all that matters to me.

Yes, oh, yes.... I want this game to be hard. All I want to be able to feel its hardness. I wish to sense it as I grasp my mouse and feel its sinewy cord and its coarse texture pads. I need to know it's hard as I gently brush my fingertips across my slick black keyboard. I yearn to press against the hardness of the high skill ceiling as I ladder. I love to feel it pushing me down. I need to feel the hardness inside me as I become hard like the game, as it hardens me and makes me a better gamer. I want to feel the hardness pound away at me and make me gosu.

I like it hard.

I got lost in this post and couldn't keep reading... LOL blaze <3
Greed leads to just about all losses.
Talack
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada2742 Posts
January 23 2012 21:57 GMT
#335
Higher skill cap if that's what you mean.

Making the game alot harder doesn't make it a better game. It should be simplistic with many options in order to make the game harder if you wish it.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
January 23 2012 21:58 GMT
#336
On January 24 2012 06:26 architecture wrote:
Actually what needs to be done is to nerf/remove all macro mechanics.

Part of the reason this game is such a mess right now is because stuff is designed the overwhelming strength of the mechanics. Without them, you'd have a more balanced and evenly paced game, instead of being able to sprint ahead with any BO disadvantage.

In BW, good play and drawing the game out was an extremely viable way to come back from being behind 1-2m from a BO disadvantage. In SC2, there is no recovery.

I completely agree with this and think it needs to be discussed more. Please keep in mind that I love the mechanics and they're really fun for me as an overachieving bronze player who's been on TL for 3 years.

SwizzY
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1549 Posts
January 23 2012 21:59 GMT
#337
Er, OP with open-ended title has 100+ replies that have nothing to do with actual topic.

And you kind of answered your own question no? The conflict at hand, in layman's terms, is:

Is the commercially successful yet strategically shallow SC2 better or worse than the minority-driven, mechanically challenging BW whose famed skill ceiling was basically an accident due to technological limitations between then and now.

The fact is, SC2 has the right framework for a game that can cater to the public AND the pros. But as it stands it is just too shallow of a game with a metagame that has been shaken too many times with patches that cater SPECIFICALLY TO LOWER LEAGUE PLAYERS (STOP SWINGING THE FKIN NERF BAT JESUS). HotS coming out mixes this freakshow of a fruitsalad we call SC2 even more chaotically.

SC2 is the future. It has the legs to run far. None of that 12unitselect/single building select bullshit. That's not real strategy. It wasn't even intended! Those mechanics do have some nostalgic/semantic value in separating the big dogs from the monsters, but I think it's the wrong place to look.
To maintain commercial success with casual gamers AND their core fanbase, they need to look at their flawed unit concepts(LOLBANSHEES)/superfluous macro mechanics(LOLMULES)/unitpathing,bunching(LOLDEATHBALLS)/map design(LOLMETALOPOLISINMAPPOOLSINCESEASON1)/ and work more on each of the 3 unit dynamics with one thing in mind: WARPGATES. Goddamn if I had ever seen a promising game mechanic bungled so terribly.

Pick up your shit Blizzard. The cracks are forming and only getting larger. I want to have faith in you, but you are making it really difficult.
All that glitters is not gold, all that wander are not lost, the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by frost.
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
January 23 2012 21:59 GMT
#338
The game will progressively get harder on its own, as people learn its intricacies and depth more. Keep it the same level, for consistency and ease of use. Thinking back to BW, before 04 Terrans were floating gas, before BoxeR terran was considered underpowered (00)... In much the same way, Sc2 will continue to evolve, expand, and thus, get more difficult. We've barely scratched the surface here.
sereniity
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Sweden1159 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 22:02:41
January 23 2012 21:59 GMT
#339
The reason that the Code S winners MVP, NesTea, MC etc don't win as much as the BW top does (Flash, Jaedong etc) is pretty simple.

The BW pros are playing a game where every build is figured out, they've had enough time to practice the game to be near the absolute skillcap, they barely have any holes in their play.

The SC2 pros are playing a game where not nearly every build nor playstyle has been figured out, they haven't had enough time with the game to actually reach anywhere near the skillcap nor tighten up every hole in their gameplay. You constantly see new cheese builds coming from the top, new macro openings and the such which can make even top players lose due to them not knowing the existence of that build.

Once everything like that is figured out in SC2 and the top pros have spent enough time mastering Marine Macro, triple pronged drops and not losing to something as silly as a ling runby while their depot isn't up then you'll see those top players winning consistently vs lesser opponents.

The fact that people expect the very top of the SC2 players to win every single game surprises me, this game is still relatively new and there's alot of things that can still catch the top players off-guard, this isn't because of bad game-design, it's because shit needs to get figured out and pros needs to get better.

Please don't tell me MVP, NesTea and MC have reached the skillcap of SC2. They're damn good but I still see bad marine splitting from MVP time to time (and by bad I mean not perfect as it should be at that lvl). I still see NesTea making bad decisions and not microing perfectly (almost every pro sacrifices their infestors mindlessly every time they try to fungal for example) and I still see MC simply not playing at his best from time to time.

The fact that people point fingers at the GAME SC2 rather than it's players is funny though...

Does this game need to get harder? No, not really. The level it is right now is fine imo, give it time and we'll see how it plays out in a year.
"I am Day9, Holy shit!"
ChoboDane
Profile Joined January 2012
Denmark98 Posts
January 23 2012 22:00 GMT
#340
On January 24 2012 06:26 architecture wrote:
Actually what needs to be done is to nerf/remove all macro mechanics.

Part of the reason this game is such a mess right now is because stuff is designed the overwhelming strength of the mechanics. Without them, you'd have a more balanced and evenly paced game, instead of being able to sprint ahead with any BO disadvantage.

In BW, good play and drawing the game out was an extremely viable way to come back from being behind 1-2m from a BO disadvantage. In SC2, there is no recovery.


Wrong way to fix. Better to make scouting less of an investment to reduce game deciding build order casino.
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