EPTIntimate ZvX with Stoic - Page 8
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On February 16 2012 20:12 Arisen wrote: Throughout a lot of the ZvZ's you've done VOD's of (even before this week), you seem to dictate a kill sequence and end it with bane/roach. I personally have never really done this sort of bust when I'm at an advantage as I'm still a really mediocre player, so I push the game later for learning purposes but there's always that 1 game out of 10 or something that I screw up and he pulls a comeback. IN a competitive sense, do you feel it's better to end it when you know you can, or try to compound your lead? If you favor the longer game, what do you do to compound that lead, and make sure he doesn't pull the comeback? Diamond EU player here, to put my advice in context. Effectively you would do the big roach + bling bust because, earlier, we have gained a significant economic advantage. This means that if we then halt drone production and make a huge roach + bling push, he cannot possibly have as big an army as us, so we will win the game. I would say there's no reason to try and "push the game later" because you are in a situation where the correct thing to do is to just go kill him. By artificially trying to "push the game later" you are simply giving him an opportunity to catch up. Let longer games happen naturally of their own accord! | ||
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stoicRegret
Canada206 Posts
On February 16 2012 20:12 Arisen wrote: Throughout a lot of the ZvZ's you've done VOD's of (even before this week), you seem to dictate a kill sequence and end it with bane/roach. I personally have never really done this sort of bust when I'm at an advantage as I'm still a really mediocre player, so I push the game later for learning purposes but there's always that 1 game out of 10 or something that I screw up and he pulls a comeback. IN a competitive sense, do you feel it's better to end it when you know you can, or try to compound your lead? If you favor the longer game, what do you do to compound that lead, and make sure he doesn't pull the comeback? There are 2 major reasons I would opt to go for this kind of all in push. In a nutshell: 1) I open roaches while he opens banelings. The advantage of opening banelings against a roach player is the window of agression that you can place on the roach build order. If caught with just lings trying to transition into roachs, baneling aggression becomes very cost effective. However, if you open banelings, and especially if you apply pressure and it does not work, the roach count is added army value that makes the roach player very safe for quite some time. If the player opts to skip roaches now and tech to mutas, roahc/baneling aggression can be very powerful. Alternatively, if he opts to go into roaches, my roach count should always be ahead of his. Now the key to this push becomes this: if you open ling/baneling and it fails, and you transition into roaches, it is very unlikely that you will randomly build lings again, let alone banelings (it would be going down in tech). So, by heavily investing into banelings with a few roaches, I can punish the lack of defensive banelings, and consequently negate the spine crawlers placed to make up for his roach deficit. Pretty cost effective if done correctly! 2) If my drone rotation at the beginning of the game is significantly above his. This play then is not an all in. If we are sitting at 40 of my drones to his 25, then if I build nothing but units until he has 40 drones, then I need only trade armies hypothetically in order to still be ahead. Anything else becomes bonus! Another thing to note is there is no better scouting in ZvZ compared to aggression. This shows u exactly how many units he has, gives you full control of what he produces during your attack, and especially when dealing with banelings, being closer to his mineral line is always advantagous. I wouldn't view the gane as "taking it to late game" as meaning much. I feel it is better to view the game as this: do everything you can to not lose and macro, but do not miss an opportunity to win". This is because these opportunities are given to you by your oppoenents, and in this light, you are not forcing a win. Aggression in this sense is not blind, and therefore not all in. For every mistake that your opponent makes that you miss to capitalize, he is actually "chessing" you! As if I built 75 drones without making a pool! Punish me! This might be the reason why some people feel that they lose their leads. Hope this helps. Thanks so much for the comments. ZvT next week!! -TheDudeTalkingInTheVod | ||
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
We'll try to stream some live coaching tonight. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On February 16 2012 22:58 stoicRegret wrote: There are 2 major reasons I would opt to go for this kind of all in push. In a nutshell: [...] -TheDudeTalkingInTheVod regarding your all-in +1 roach bling, what happens when you see a spine-heavy defense with infestors? i rely on a composition that is more roach-heavy, and i recall a game where i attacked into spines, got my 4-6 blings fungaled from high ground (that is, couldn't have prepared for it), and was held off by lots of spines and a few roaches. am i waiting too long to attack? or is a spine forest a sign that i should contain and saturate my third instead of attacking? also, i wanted to ask about your reinforcements during the attack, seems like you go for all lings. just wondering if there's any situation where you would reinforce with roaches instead. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On January 18 2012 17:08 quakerix wrote: Subscribed! Ever since mrbitter quit his live coaching and 12weeks with the pro's and stuff i was missing out on some high lvl zerg stuff. Yes but he is a caster now. He had a good reason but I agree, it is nice to have a new face like him as he moves on to more awesome stuff! Mr.Bitter <3 | ||
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/smwatkin | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
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romelako
United States373 Posts
Upon seeing these videos, I thought they were absolutely perfect for my level play. I had been sitting in Master league with a terrible wall up in front of me. I was unable to break low to mid masters, probably due to my shit ZvP winrate (sitting at around a 25-30% average). However, after speaking with stoicRegret and stoicNuvo (and still on a daily basis), I can honestly say that these videos have definitely helped my gameplay. I feel like I have the potential to grow to get to the top of Master League, and I have only these two guys to thank. David (stoicRegret) is very helpful and his straightforward analytical approach is something that I feel a lot of commentaries lack. It's one to watch a pro player easily execute all of his strategies and win many games, but you don't actually see what's going on inside their head. It's very nice to have someone who gets matched with GM players provide such great analysis and add more depth to an already vast game of strategy and execution. David has helped me tremendously, patiently answering all of the questions that I had, regardless if they were retarded or not. AFAIK, he's still up to coach other people, so if you have the opportunity, shoot him questions! Thumbs up to these guys for putting this show together--they really deserve a lot more. ~ SpiKy | ||
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
So, big question about episode 8 game 4 (ZvZ with ground vs muta). I seem to remember back in the day when the fast muta builds got popularized that the gameplan went like this: 1) Fast lair 2) build one group of mutas (~8) 3) Deny enemy third base/take third base 4) switch to roach (+ hydra/infestor support) 5) win with macro advantage from faster third (and subsequent) bases I've seen a couple "dealing with mutas in ZvZ" type vids, and I think all of the successful ones involve a third base from the ground player before the muta player, or at least a relatively fast third. This seems to work, as spores can be put up at the third to delay a standard small group of mutas, and hydras or infestors will be out in time to fight larger groups. My question is, is this faster third actually safe especially vs non-muta play? It seems like a couple months ago there was a lot of hatch tech +1 roach timings off 2-base and ~30 drones that would absolutely kill someone who went for a fast third, and that such attacks were difficult to scout, as they were before lair (and overseers). Have you encountered such timings while attempting to fast third, and what do you look for to prepare for such an occurrence? | ||
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sonigo
Switzerland38 Posts
I've really no idea why these videos aren't more popular. Even for non zerg players, this shit is just valuable information. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
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sanctuz
Norway184 Posts
 Has TL given you guys any sort of publicity love? Thanks again guys, you rock! E: When David is disussing timings and such , he always refers to supply. I usually focus on the clock, like take my gasses around 6 min mark @ gasless ZvP. Isnt the supply timings very susceptible to any sort of early pressure like in the pokebunny game, in terms of getting your timings askew? | ||
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
On February 18 2012 01:29 sanctuz wrote: I tuned into the live show, while in bed on my iphone. Thats how good this show is Has TL given you guys any sort of publicity love? Thanks again guys, you rock! E: When David is disussing timings and such , he always refers to supply. I usually focus on the clock, like take my gasses around 6 min mark @ gasless ZvP. Isnt the supply timings very susceptible to any sort of early pressure like in the pokebunny game, in terms of getting your timings askew? Supply is a better way to think of the progression of the game. Imagine you get 2 gate proxy pressure and it does JUST the right amount of damage that you both transition into an exactly normal macro game. Your timing will be completely screwed up then. I'm sure there are better reasons than this that David can probably explain, but this is why I personally try to track progression of the game in supply rather than time. David uses supply to scout very specific things (like sentries), and reacts accordingly. This keeps you safe from timings. To answer your first question, yes. TL gave us the spotlight during the first few episodes! | ||
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
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sanctuz
Norway184 Posts
Love how you get desynced every game btw, make me laugh each game | ||
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