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On January 17 2012 06:56 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:41 CallousCarter wrote:On January 17 2012 05:14 Hardigan wrote:On January 17 2012 05:08 CallousCarter wrote:On January 17 2012 04:29 lavit2099 wrote:
To start this, let me say I have nothing against TSL (or Coach Lee) and I am not an EG fanboi.
I guess it's due to the fact that I'm American, but I don't see why it's such a big deal. TSL didn't have PuMa under contract. If you WANT to keep talent, you sign the talent to a deal. Maybe it's because I grew up hearing about baseball players and football players (not "futbol" but American football) getting signed to teams for millions. You don't run a professional team on "trust and faith."
If TSL isn't a professional team, I don't understand why they were/are butthurt over the PuMa thing. People grow and change and in this case these are YOUNG people (I'm reminded of the Stephano thing) want to spread out and see other things. In MMO terms, it's like the guild you join when you hit max level that you learn how to play at cap and stuff, that trains you up BEFORE you drop and join the uber leet raiding guild. Eight times out of ten the lower tier guild understands that and there usually isn't any bad feelings. If TSL is a professional team, why didn't they sign anyone to contracts? Is it a Korean thing? Do other Korean teams base everything off "trust and faith?" I wont comment on the "I'm American" part but i will say I vehemently disagree. As complexity have found out many professional football teams (not gridiron but the game you play primarily with your feet), sports contracts are very difficult to enforce given the international nature of the agreement and it's not worth getting into a legal battle or paying for and supporting a player who has his heart set on moving to a different club or team.The only difference here is because TSL didn't have Puma contracted EG could cut them out of the deal and avoid paying them any fees. That's pretty dirty, Tyler made a good post in the State of the game thread about how business can benefit everyone involved, this was clearly detrimental to TSL as an organisation and coach Lee pseronally. Your raiding guild analogy is also pretty hollow. TSL weren't and aren't a casual guild, they were a professional team with a team house, a full time coach and one of the first teams to start playing all their players a salary. The only difference between them and EG is EG has more financing available and TSL didn't want to force their young and possibly naive players into potentially oppressive and ultimately unenforceable contracts which i would consider quite a noble and respectable decision. Unfortunately that came back to bite them on the arse. EG did a lot of deplorable things in this particular instance and I don't think they should be let off because they're used to abusing/defending against a flawed litigation system. wait, i thought Puma and other players in the TSL at that time didn't get payed execpt for Trickster and fruitdealer? And why should EG give TSL money if there was no real contract? Isn't it then TSL's fault for not making one? I think you're right about the first part and Trickster and Fruitdealer were the only players receiving salary at the time. However there's a plethora of reasons that EG should of cut TSL a fair deal. One it would of been better for the industry as a whole, knowing that you don't have to give players a contract and possibly have to spend serious money trying to defend or enforce said contract would be a great liberation for teams especially some of the more cash strapped and sponsor short Korean teams. It would of been better for EG, they could o f forged a good business relationship with TSL potentially giving them the opportunity to acquire more players from them or send their players to train then. It could of been great for some of the infamous EG marketing spin, EG standing shoulder to shoulder with their esports entrepreneur brothers. They would of avoided the slightly nefarious reputation they gained with some people , at the moment they're often compared to the yankees. Just because it was legal doesn't make it morally correct or practical. Saying it's TSL's fault for not having a contract is like saying if a kid in a playground gets punched in the face, it's his fault he wasn't already blocking his face. your reference is not correct imo. I see it more like I have a car crash with my car and die because I don't have an airbag (wierd example but I guess you get what I mean). And about morality: So EG should have gave TSL money although there was no real contract? Just like that? That would be more like donation and less like a business deal. And better for esport is imo when Teams treat players better instead of reliance on trust. Trust won't work when the industry grows. But back to the topic. When it is true that aLive AND Moon get signed by fanatic, why exactly do they call it "He's comming" and not "they"? Except TSL didn't crash the car, eg crashed their car into them. That's the difference.
EG were acquiring Puma from TSL, he was a TSL player he just didn't have a contract. They weren't giving TSL money for nothing they were giving them money to get Puma to play for them. Another analogy for you. It's like there's a golden statue in someone house. The door is unlocked so you just walk in and take it. Is that morally correct?
The point is TSL were trying to treat their players well. The reason we can't grow this industry on trust is because organisations like EG abuse that trust. A contract is only their to offer the organisation or player some chance of compensation through a legal battle if things go wrong. It's not an effective tool in keeping ap lay at a team, look at Carlos Tevoz's career, it doesn't legitimise the industry it just conforms to bad practice, it doesn't guarantee the player a regular pay check or a fair deal. In my utopian world we wouldn't need contracts because organisations like EG wouldn't facilitate such dodgy deals.
On January 17 2012 07:02 kyllinghest wrote:
These announcements of announcements; so unnecessary and annoying!
They remind me of the 30 second teaser trailers for a 3 minute music video that keep getting put up on youtube. Really irks me.
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On January 17 2012 08:08 CallousCarter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:56 Hardigan wrote:On January 17 2012 06:41 CallousCarter wrote:On January 17 2012 05:14 Hardigan wrote:On January 17 2012 05:08 CallousCarter wrote:On January 17 2012 04:29 lavit2099 wrote:
To start this, let me say I have nothing against TSL (or Coach Lee) and I am not an EG fanboi.
I guess it's due to the fact that I'm American, but I don't see why it's such a big deal. TSL didn't have PuMa under contract. If you WANT to keep talent, you sign the talent to a deal. Maybe it's because I grew up hearing about baseball players and football players (not "futbol" but American football) getting signed to teams for millions. You don't run a professional team on "trust and faith."
If TSL isn't a professional team, I don't understand why they were/are butthurt over the PuMa thing. People grow and change and in this case these are YOUNG people (I'm reminded of the Stephano thing) want to spread out and see other things. In MMO terms, it's like the guild you join when you hit max level that you learn how to play at cap and stuff, that trains you up BEFORE you drop and join the uber leet raiding guild. Eight times out of ten the lower tier guild understands that and there usually isn't any bad feelings. If TSL is a professional team, why didn't they sign anyone to contracts? Is it a Korean thing? Do other Korean teams base everything off "trust and faith?" I wont comment on the "I'm American" part but i will say I vehemently disagree. As complexity have found out many professional football teams (not gridiron but the game you play primarily with your feet), sports contracts are very difficult to enforce given the international nature of the agreement and it's not worth getting into a legal battle or paying for and supporting a player who has his heart set on moving to a different club or team.The only difference here is because TSL didn't have Puma contracted EG could cut them out of the deal and avoid paying them any fees. That's pretty dirty, Tyler made a good post in the State of the game thread about how business can benefit everyone involved, this was clearly detrimental to TSL as an organisation and coach Lee pseronally. Your raiding guild analogy is also pretty hollow. TSL weren't and aren't a casual guild, they were a professional team with a team house, a full time coach and one of the first teams to start playing all their players a salary. The only difference between them and EG is EG has more financing available and TSL didn't want to force their young and possibly naive players into potentially oppressive and ultimately unenforceable contracts which i would consider quite a noble and respectable decision. Unfortunately that came back to bite them on the arse. EG did a lot of deplorable things in this particular instance and I don't think they should be let off because they're used to abusing/defending against a flawed litigation system. wait, i thought Puma and other players in the TSL at that time didn't get payed execpt for Trickster and fruitdealer? And why should EG give TSL money if there was no real contract? Isn't it then TSL's fault for not making one? I think you're right about the first part and Trickster and Fruitdealer were the only players receiving salary at the time. However there's a plethora of reasons that EG should of cut TSL a fair deal. One it would of been better for the industry as a whole, knowing that you don't have to give players a contract and possibly have to spend serious money trying to defend or enforce said contract would be a great liberation for teams especially some of the more cash strapped and sponsor short Korean teams. It would of been better for EG, they could o f forged a good business relationship with TSL potentially giving them the opportunity to acquire more players from them or send their players to train then. It could of been great for some of the infamous EG marketing spin, EG standing shoulder to shoulder with their esports entrepreneur brothers. They would of avoided the slightly nefarious reputation they gained with some people , at the moment they're often compared to the yankees. Just because it was legal doesn't make it morally correct or practical. Saying it's TSL's fault for not having a contract is like saying if a kid in a playground gets punched in the face, it's his fault he wasn't already blocking his face. your reference is not correct imo. I see it more like I have a car crash with my car and die because I don't have an airbag (wierd example but I guess you get what I mean). And about morality: So EG should have gave TSL money although there was no real contract? Just like that? That would be more like donation and less like a business deal. And better for esport is imo when Teams treat players better instead of reliance on trust. Trust won't work when the industry grows. But back to the topic. When it is true that aLive AND Moon get signed by fanatic, why exactly do they call it "He's comming" and not "they"? Except TSL didn't crash the car, eg crashed their car into them. That's the difference. EG were acquiring Puma from TSL, he was a TSL player he just didn't have a contract. They weren't giving TSL money for nothing they were giving them money to get Puma to play for them. Another analogy for you. It's like there's a golden statue in someone house. The door is unlocked so you just walk in and take it. Is that morally correct? The point is TSL were trying to treat their players well. The reason we can't grow this industry on trust is because organisations like EG abuse that trust. A contract is only their to offer the organisation or player some chance of compensation through a legal battle if things go wrong. It's not an effective tool in keeping ap lay at a team, look at Carlos Tevoz's career, it doesn't legitimise the industry it just conforms to bad practice, it doesn't guarantee the player a regular pay check or a fair deal. In my utopian world we wouldn't need contracts because organisations like EG wouldn't facilitate such dodgy deals. Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:02 kyllinghest wrote:
These announcements of announcements; so unnecessary and annoying! They remind me of the 30 second teaser trailers for a 3 minute music video that keep getting put up on youtube. Really irks me.
Sounds like you don't really know what happened with the Puma situation. If you think the situation is similar to Someone walking into someones house and stealing a golden statue than you should go back and do some research.
And if it irks you don't participate. Theres plenty of other content on TL or sc2 in general for you to pay attention to.
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EG didn't steal PuMa. They didn't kidnap him and FORCE him to play under the EG banner. Your example, CallousCarter, is flawed. People seem to be under the impression that EG wronged TSL and PuMa didn't have any say in the matter. There's a point where business trumps "good feelings." EG offered PuMa a contract and more money. EG had no reason to talk to TSL about it, since they were getting a player without a contract or any legal/binding ties to another team. EG could of told them, sure, but they didn't have to.
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think Beyoncé once said ,"if like then you better put a ring on it"(contract).
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On January 17 2012 08:18 drivec wrote:
think Beyoncé once said ,"if like then you better put a ring on it"(contract).
Yup. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
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On January 17 2012 08:16 Angelbelow wrote:
Sounds like you don't really know what happened with the Puma situation. If you think the situation is similar to Someone walking into someones house and stealing a golden statue than you should go back and do some research.
Really? Or you could debate it here with me right now. Maybe I've made EG to sound like an evil corporation with my previous posts which I don't think they are but I think with the Puma situation they saw the opportunity for a cheap deal and took it without going through the proper channels which resulted in a very sore deal for TSl and EG has never fully owned up to the mistakes they made.
And if it irks you don't participate. Theres plenty of other content on TL or sc2 in general for you to pay attention to. I've only started participating in this thread when the EG puma situation got brought up. I understand these announcements of announcements aren't doing anyone much harm and some people genuinely get excited for them, they just annoy me personally.
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I was hoping that it was YellOw but I don't think the pic and YellOw look close at all... haha.
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On January 17 2012 08:16 lavit2099 wrote:
EG didn't steal PuMa. They didn't kidnap him and FORCE him to play under the EG banner. Your example, CallousCarter, is flawed. People seem to be under the impression that EG wronged TSL and PuMa didn't have any say in the matter. There's a point where business trumps "good feelings." EG offered PuMa a contract and more money. EG had no reason to talk to TSL about it, since they were getting a player without a contract or any legal/binding ties to another team. EG could of told them, sure, but they didn't have to.
I've never said puma got a bad deal i said TSL got a bad deal. He was a TSL player in every way possible except for not having a contract. The contract is a security mechanic against to make sure a team can get something for a player if that player decides to leave. That's why I compared it to a locked door. Their should of been 3 parties in this buisness deal, TSL pumas current team at the time, Puma himself obviously and EG. Instead there was just EG and TSL, so it wasn't a fair business deal. There was no legally binding tie between puma and TSL but there were or at least should of been binding ties such as respect, gratitude and an understanding that it's often bad to burn bridges you might later want to cross. I've already explained how it was bad business.
There's much more to business than getting stuff on the cheap. The letter of the law is not a definitive set of rulings on what is good and proper, it's a set of rulings on what the government of the country, it's police force and legal system is and isn't willing to do in certain situations. A legal contract therefore is not a definitive answer to ownership, it is only an agreement between governments and people about who they believe owns an object or right. Laws and contracts should never be taken for anything more. So far nobody has bothered to counter my points on good business, you've just said there was no contract and that somehow equate to EG having the right to do whatever they want. The same attitude Americans took when they butchered the Natives, stole their land and corralled them into reservations but I guess that was morally acceptable because they never had a contract with the government either.
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On January 17 2012 08:52 CallousCarter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:16 Angelbelow wrote:
Sounds like you don't really know what happened with the Puma situation. If you think the situation is similar to Someone walking into someones house and stealing a golden statue than you should go back and do some research. Really? Or you could debate it here with me right now. Maybe I've made EG to sound like an evil corporation with my previous posts which I don't think they are but I think with the Puma situation they saw the opportunity for a cheap deal and took it without going through the proper channels which resulted in a very sore deal for TSl and EG has never fully owned up to the mistakes they made. Show nested quote +And if it irks you don't participate. Theres plenty of other content on TL or sc2 in general for you to pay attention to. I've only started participating in this thread when the EG puma situation got brought up. I understand these announcements of announcements aren't doing anyone much harm and some people genuinely get excited for them, they just annoy me personally.
Sure we can debate, but your previous post comes off as someone whose misinformed so whats the point if you don't even know what you're talking about/ biased already. You compared it to a burglar stealing from someones home due to an unlocked door.
What are these proper channels you're talking about? What mistakes have they made? TL painted the transfer as super negative but the fact of the matter is that 1. TSL threw him a going away party. 2. He still trained with them after his transfer. 3. he remained close with his TSL teammates, most notably JYP. PuMa still practices with members from other teams. If the transfer was really sour none of that would have happened. In fact, there was NO blacklash from the Korean community. So why make it a bigger deal than it is? I don't really have that much sympathy for TSL. Their management seems inconsistent to say the least. They've lost EVERY single big name player since they've started.
I used to be a big wrestling fan, WCW and WWF stuff when I around the age of 12-18. I remember they had some of the most ridiculously cool hype videos with crazy production value and I used to enjoy those quite a bit. Even though I don't follow wrestling at all anymore, I know they still sell out all their events and their hype videos used to be all the talk. So I don't really find these small scale hype announcements annoying. And how did you know the PuMa situation got brought up? My guess is that you got curious and decided to check the thread despite you being "annoyed" by them. Not a bad thing.. that's just one of the features of these marketing hype strategies, to draw in the people who don't care in.
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Oh for fuck's sake. Let's go over this situation again:
- EG hands out business cards/wheedles players a bit at NASL. (Not only PuMa. Other players as well, such as Sen, whose contract with Fnatic was expiring soon.)
- PuMa decides he's interested and approaches EG.
- EG lays out a few terms and suggests that they talk to TSL.
- PuMa says he will talk to TSL for them.
- PuMa goes back to Korea and acts dodgy for a few days, because he's decided to take EG's deal.
- Lee finally gets him to fess up and throws a fit when he finds out that EG approached PuMa at NASL and consequently boots PuMa off the team.
- PuMa physically signs with EG.
Things that went wrong:
1.) Should EG have been approaching players at NASL? Well, it happens all the time, apparently, especially when contracts are about to expire. It probably should not have gone beyond handing out a business card and to actually hammering out the deals of a potential contract, though once EG found out PuMa was not under contract, they went ahead with this anyways. Of course, this would've been solved had Lee put PuMa under contract; I doubt EG would've seriously negotiated with PuMa if this were the case. As such, EG saw this as PuMa having no legal ties to TSL, so they dealt directly with the individual, because he was legally a free agent. (-1 to EG, -1 Lee).
2.) Should PuMa have approached EG saying he is interested without talking to Lee? Probably not. You're not supposed to talk to other teams without notifying your management (i.e. Lee). (-1 PuMa)
3.) Should PuMa have offered to go talk to Lee himself? Probably not. Should've let EG's actual people handle it, especially since PuMa never actually laid it out for Lee. Why the fuck would you let PuMa talk for you? EG should not have let PuMa represent them, and PuMa should've known this would be bad form. (-1 PuMa, -1 EG).
4.) Should Lee have thrown a fit and kicked PuMa off TSL and created a big to-do about it? Well, it was certainly within his rights to, but it was incredibly immature considering there was no contract anyways. Contracts not only, btw, protect the team but also the players from being exploited. PuMa was making nothing as a B-teamer. (-1 Lee).
It was everyone's fault, okay?
@ Angelbelow: There was a fairly disgusting backlash from the Korean community. Not the players but the fans, who went up-in-arms about EG poaching PuMa, though obviously a lot of it was influenced by Lee's statements to the media.
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On January 17 2012 09:25 babylon wrote:
Oh for fuck's sake. Let's go over this situation again:
- EG hands out business cards/wheedles players a bit at NASL. (Not only PuMa. Other players as well, such as Sen, whose contract with Fnatic was expiring soon.)
- PuMa decides he's interested and approaches EG.
- EG lays out a few terms and suggests that they talk to TSL.
- PuMa says he will talk to TSL for them.
- PuMa goes back to Korea and acts dodgy for a few days, because he's decided to take EG's deal.
- Lee finally gets him to fess up and throws a fit when he finds out that EG approached PuMa at NASL and consequently boots PuMa off the team.
- PuMa physically signs with EG.
Things that went wrong:
1.) Should EG have been approaching players at NASL? Well, it happens all the time, apparently, especially when contracts are about to expire. It probably should not have gone beyond handing out a business card and to actually hammering out the deals of a potential contract, though once EG found out PuMa was not under contract, they went ahead with this anyways. Of course, this would've been solved had Lee put PuMa under contract; I doubt EG would've seriously negotiated with PuMa if this were the case. As such, EG saw this as PuMa having no legal ties to TSL, so they dealt directly with the individual, because he was legally a free agent. (-1 to EG, -1 Lee).
2.) Should PuMa have approached EG saying he is interested without talking to Lee? Probably not. You're not supposed to talk to other teams without notifying your management (i.e. Lee). (-1 PuMa)
3.) Should PuMa have offered to go talk to Lee himself? Probably not. Should've let EG's actual people handle it, especially since PuMa never actually laid it out for Lee. Why the fuck would you let PuMa talk for you? EG should not have let PuMa represent them, and PuMa should've known this would be bad form. (-1 PuMa, -1 EG).
4.) Should Lee have thrown a fit and kicked PuMa off TSL and created a big to-do about it? Well, it was certainly within his rights to, but it was incredibly immature considering there was no contract anyways. Contracts not only, btw, protect the team but also the players from being exploited. PuMa was making nothing as a B-teamer. (-1 Lee).
It was everyone's fault, okay?
@ Angelbelow: There was a fairly disgusting backlash from the Korean community. Not the players but the fans, who went up-in-arms about EG poaching PuMa, though obviously a lot of it was influenced by Lee's statements to the media.
that sums everything up, can we stay back on track now? lets talk about who this player is for fnatic, not this stupid puma bs that was over months ago
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On January 17 2012 09:25 babylon wrote:
@ Angelbelow: There was a fairly disgusting backlash from the Korean community. Not the players but the fans, who went up-in-arms about EG poaching PuMa, though obviously a lot of it was influenced by Lee's statements to the media.
I meant to say the player community. Thanks for the correction, although I don't remember it being "disgusting backlash." The TL forums were much, much worse. In fact it was the korean forums that talked about the TSL celebration and the going away party for PuMa. How that was very "sweet" of them. (But this was a long time ago, my memory may be off.)
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On January 17 2012 09:25 babylon wrote:
Oh for fuck's sake. Let's go over this situation again:
- EG hands out business cards/wheedles players a bit at NASL. (Not only PuMa. Other players as well, such as Sen, whose contract with Fnatic was expiring soon.)
- PuMa decides he's interested and approaches EG.
- EG lays out a few terms and suggests that they talk to TSL.
- PuMa says he will talk to TSL for them.
- PuMa goes back to Korea and acts dodgy for a few days, because he's decided to take EG's deal.
- Lee finally gets him to fess up and throws a fit when he finds out that EG approached PuMa at NASL and consequently boots PuMa off the team.
- PuMa physically signs with EG.
Things that went wrong:
1.) Should EG have been approaching players at NASL? Well, it happens all the time, apparently, especially when contracts are about to expire. It probably should not have gone beyond handing out a business card and to actually hammering out the deals of a potential contract, though once EG found out PuMa was not under contract, they went ahead with this anyways. Of course, this would've been solved had Lee put PuMa under contract; I doubt EG would've seriously negotiated with PuMa if this were the case. As such, EG saw this as PuMa having no legal ties to TSL, so they dealt directly with the individual, because he was legally a free agent. (-1 to EG, -1 Lee).
2.) Should PuMa have approached EG saying he is interested without talking to Lee? Probably not. You're not supposed to talk to other teams without notifying your management (i.e. Lee). (-1 PuMa)
3.) Should PuMa have offered to go talk to Lee himself? Probably not. Should've let EG's actual people handle it, especially since PuMa never actually laid it out for Lee. Why the fuck would you let PuMa talk for you? EG should not have let PuMa represent them, and PuMa should've known this would be bad form. (-1 PuMa, -1 EG).
4.) Should Lee have thrown a fit and kicked PuMa off TSL and created a big to-do about it? Well, it was certainly within his rights to, but it was incredibly immature considering there was no contract anyways. Contracts not only, btw, protect the team but also the players from being exploited. PuMa was making nothing as a B-teamer. (-1 Lee).
It was everyone's fault, okay?
@ Angelbelow: There was a fairly disgusting backlash from the Korean community. Not the players but the fans, who went up-in-arms about EG poaching PuMa, though obviously a lot of it was influenced by Lee's statements to the media.
Exactly this, to those who are intereseted in the score it is
1. Eg -2
2. Lee -2
3. Puma -2
And the new player is Moon. 100% Sure
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It's Jan 17 in Korea now. So who is it?
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On January 17 2012 08:54 IntoTheheart wrote:
I was hoping that it was YellOw but I don't think the pic and YellOw look close at all... haha.
The pic is 100% Moon. Why are people still speculating?
As for who the announcement is going to be about... now that's a different matter, but if we go by the obvious Moon drawing in the 1st vid and the obvious picture of a Moon in the 2nd vid, I'm guessing one of the players involved is Moon.
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On January 17 2012 09:33 Garnet wrote:
It's Jan 17 in Korea now. So who is it?
Also Jan 17 in the UK now! \o/ What's the gossip??
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On January 17 2012 09:31 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 babylon wrote:
@ Angelbelow: There was a fairly disgusting backlash from the Korean community. Not the players but the fans, who went up-in-arms about EG poaching PuMa, though obviously a lot of it was influenced by Lee's statements to the media. I meant to say the player community. Thanks for the correction, although I don't remember it being "disgusting backlash." The TL forums were much, much worse. In fact it was the korean forums that talked about the TSL celebration and the going away party for PuMa. How that was very "sweet" of them. (But this was a long time ago, my memory may be off.)
There were a fair number of comments on the Korean boards that were pretty harsh, and PuMa was harassed a bit online (though I only saw one explicit case of it myself). It blew over though, as these things do.
On January 17 2012 09:35 pdd wrote:
As for who the announcement is going to be about... now that's a different matter, but if we go by the obvious Moon drawing in the 1st vid and the obvious picture of a Moon in the 2nd vid, I'm guessing one of the players involved is Moon.
Dat logic.
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On January 17 2012 09:36 Dreaming11 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:33 Garnet wrote:
It's Jan 17 in Korea now. So who is it? Also Jan 17 in the UK now! \o/ What's the gossip??
17 here too,
Fnatic
Y U NO ANNOUNCE YET?
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EPT
