EPTFlo Joins Quantic - Page 26
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
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BBMorti
Denmark242 Posts
On December 23 2011 22:02 TotalBiscuit wrote: To chime in and point out how dumb some people are being. I suppose that could be taken as smugness, if you happen to be overly sensitive. Well the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to them. Much luck to her. A bit more Christmas spirit would be amazing on this site =) | ||
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Pumplekin
United Kingdom50 Posts
So women can't play games? Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you). 1.) Women can't play games. Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games. 2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games! Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player. 3.) What about other games/sports? Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games. In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players. 4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo? Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that). 5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then? The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again. 6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments. Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries. 7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming? In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:- ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players. DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though. OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many. Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies. Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future. | ||
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Quanticfograw
United States2053 Posts
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Paladia
802 Posts
On December 23 2011 11:04 TotalBiscuit wrote: It seems like running a business is not the only thing you have absolutely no idea about. My job is another. Nah I tend to find that pointing and laughing at stupid opinions is a pretty good idea when I don't want to waste my time covering ground that others have already tread in this thread. What has been worthwhile to say has been said, no need to repeat or reiterate it. Some people are too stupid to get it and no amount of posting will convince them so why waste the time? As you seem to be clueless about my business-sense. I've heard you in every game comment on what a player does right or wrong. When you do it, it is fine, but when another person does it, he is clueless? If you don't want to waste your time, then why waste it on being hostile towards everyone else? Seems like you just want to talk people down. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10349 Posts
it reminds us about what we shouldn't do etc. learn to not be like those we find hilariously ignorant. | ||
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
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winn
United States14 Posts
My bet, if she isn't already, Flo will very shortly be the strongest female sc2 player. Go flo!!! kick some ass! | ||
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.Sic.
Korea (South)497 Posts
On December 22 2011 09:29 MercilessMonkey wrote: No, she can actually play at a competitive level from what I've seen. She isn't some random diamond player. define competitive i agree though, shes not too bad | ||
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VGhost
United States3605 Posts
On December 23 2011 04:17 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm not saying those were great A-teamers, but their results are evidently superior to Idra's. You seem to be comparing their skills to those of other A-teamers, but I get the impression you're using a different metric for Idra. And Juni has wins against Effort, Bisu and Flash. Hyvaa has wins against Jaedong, Flash, Leta, Fantasy and other noteworthy players. Flying has won against Leta and Sea. Idra has dominated foreigner events and taken a series off ACE's GoRush. Otherwise the best players he's beaten are Jaehoon, Shuttle and, well, Flying. In series that he lost. Obviously he had a major disadvantage in not being able to speak the language, that probably takes away a lot of the benefits of playing in a team house. One thing that would really help illuminate this subject would be knowing how long it typically takes for a b-teamer to break through, if they ever do. I don't suppose you know where we could get those? Incidentally, didn't I play against you in an absolutely atrocious 2v2 in SC2GG's Star Cup a year or two ago? I seem to recall your ID. Yes, yes you did. ^^ Anyway, and apologies for confusing my basic argument with all the statistical clutter, is that there are Korean pro still playing and playing regularly despite demonstrating that they are No Good At Starcraft on a professional level. Idra may have gotten his license directly from a team without winning Courage (though the existence of the system indicates others have too), but it seems to me *after* that he was disfavored due to being a foreigner. How much of that is simply a result of eSTRO chaos, how much it actually reflects how good he was, and how much was foreigner bias, I don't know. Sure, his best win was either taking a game from Shuttle or beating (ACE, out-of-form, shaky) GoRush, but judging by that prelim (beat GoRush, 1-2 against Jaehoon who was about to have a breakout year) he had improved significantly: I think if given more opportunity that would have shown up sooner and better. I mean obviously it's all hypothetical at this point but I think he was competitive for what he was able to do. I'm not claiming he would have been even Classic or sKyHigh, but compared to players like Ssak or Barracks it's hard to say he was any worse (except wrt attitude, which may have been the biggest hindrance – eg "talent toi have", TSL ragequit, etc.) | ||
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lazydino
Canada331 Posts
But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Flo and Eve are bronze scrubs who got picked out of nowhere, They do in fact have some degree in skill. But a male with the same degree in skill would never get on these high level competitive teams. | ||
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AeonStrife
United States918 Posts
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Hawk2
United States229 Posts
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viCeM
Germany10 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5818 Posts
On December 24 2011 03:01 VGhost wrote: Yes, yes you did. ^^ Anyway, and apologies for confusing my basic argument with all the statistical clutter, is that there are Korean pro still playing and playing regularly despite demonstrating that they are No Good At Starcraft on a professional level. Idra may have gotten his license directly from a team without winning Courage (though the existence of the system indicates others have too), but it seems to me *after* that he was disfavored due to being a foreigner. How much of that is simply a result of eSTRO chaos, how much it actually reflects how good he was, and how much was foreigner bias, I don't know. Sure, his best win was either taking a game from Shuttle or beating (ACE, out-of-form, shaky) GoRush, but judging by that prelim (beat GoRush, 1-2 against Jaehoon who was about to have a breakout year) he had improved significantly: I think if given more opportunity that would have shown up sooner and better. I mean obviously it's all hypothetical at this point but I think he was competitive for what he was able to do. I'm not claiming he would have been even Classic or sKyHigh, but compared to players like Ssak or Barracks it's hard to say he was any worse (except wrt attitude, which may have been the biggest hindrance – eg "talent toi have", TSL ragequit, etc.) Sounds reasonable to me. | ||
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MutaKingPrime
Korea (South)43 Posts
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Draxtier
Canada10 Posts
By virtue of her skill, personality and gender, Flo can offer something different, and potentially help e-sports to grow. If you're a fan of starcraft2, you ought to be excited about that. Personally, I can't wait to see destiny and flo streaming practice games with one another. I just hope he takes it easy with the sarcastic, sexist jokes. She's still awfully young!  Congrats flo and congrats Quantic! | ||
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Neelia
Germany599 Posts
On December 23 2011 04:09 kappadevin wrote: Alright. Lets say you and a woman both apply for the same job. We'll say you both have completely identical qualifications for this position, aside from your gender differences. Now we'll say that she gets hired over you for no given reason aside from the fact that she is a woman. Is that fair to you? Are you satisfied knowing you lost your shot at a job just because she is of the opposite gender? How is that not sexism? It's not the same job ffs. As a woman she has the oppertunity to compete at women only tournaments/leagues asides from competing at every other event. So she brings more exposure. Also on your point of revenue potential: There has been no evidence that female gamers or even female only leagues bring in more revenue. In fact, the DIVINA tournament had less sponsors and a far smaller viewing base than a slow day at the GSL. So if you are going to make the argument that players should be recruited based on gender, you should probably at least make an effort to explain why you think that's the case  . Even if the DIVINA Tournament has less viewers than a slow day of gsl (which sounds quite good to me lol) it may be still worth it? I don't really follow the female scene but as far as I know she is a top contender for every female tournament she plays in. Unless you poach a code a+ player or a top level foreigner I doubt there are any players who would bring more exposure. | ||
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OmuRice
Australia2 Posts
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OxyFuel
Canada195 Posts
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