Flo Joins Quantic - Page 27

On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote:
I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...

It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\

On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote:
I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...

It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\

On December 24 2011 11:46 HuKPOWA wrote:
I don't care how ppl take offense to this but....only reason she is joining the team is b/c she is female...i know 1-2 Females who are actually GM on EU who beat pros on ladder constantly...YET these ppl get it who are high master/diamond...doesnt make sense to me...

It seems this is all a stunt to include women in esports...even if thats it, they shouldn't be given a freebee :\

On December 23 2011 23:00 Pumplekin wrote:
All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.

So women can't play games?

Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).

1.) Women can't play games.

Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.

2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!

Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.

3.) What about other games/sports?

Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.

In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.

4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?

Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).

5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?

The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.

6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.

Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.

7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?

In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-

ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players.
DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though.
OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.

Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.

Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.

On December 24 2011 15:50 chipman wrote:
Please, we're unfortunately in an age of socialism where anyone who can garner sympathy from an activist court by playing the role of a victim can get away with getting pretty much anything they want within "reason". People have always gone where the money is, there is nothing more predictable than that. That's why it doesn't surprise me that these organizations in the Americas and EU etc are recruiting popular players *because* they are popular in the hopes that they have a larger viewer and fan following and can gradually increase their sponsorship/s etc.

Nothing against quantic, nothing against sponsors and esports, just this is really old news to me by now so much so that I barely get past the home TL page. She's almost attractive (while we have a largely male audience), better statistically speaking than 97% of players in her region if she is masters(I've never understood how people are so GD bad at sports and games, I've played under 500 games and have been masters forever while having a job, a family, and 12+ credits, but I'm thankful for those people because there's no grand master league without bronze), and she streams and gets captured on camera at events for these reasons.

All in all, a smart pick up, good luck to her and the organizations involved, hope things go well, but quite honestly I really don't care.

On December 24 2011 15:25 dde wrote:
I kinda expected someone would start this debate. Gratz on Flo btw i think i saw her at providence.

On December 22 2011 20:33 OJPaper wrote:


You're kidding right? This is a troll? No one really thinks this? D:

On December 23 2011 23:00 Pumplekin wrote:
All of this is clearly IMO, even though I'm stating it like facts.

So women can't play games?

Well, Flo does seem to have stirred the usual "Women can't play games"; "She only got this because she’s a girl". This subject can get me quite emotive (as I'm sure those that know me IRL will tell you).

1.) Women can't play games.

Well, women clearly CAN play games. This is a totally silly suggestion; I've seen plenty of women play games.

2.) Okay then, women cannot compete at games!

Well, again this clearly isn't true. Let’s take some examples. From modern times (and say what you will about the game), Hafu played WoW PVP at a very high level. Along with other accomplishments, she was on the winning team at MLG Orlando 2008, and the second placed team at MLG Dallas. Looking back further in time you have players like Kornelia who played competitive FPS games at a fairly high level. She took out several highly ranked male opponents, and had the expected "pro vs pub" record against Joe public at trade fairs around the world, dominating and winning like 99.9% of those games, only really being stopped when running into a "real" player.

3.) What about other games/sports?

Well, it is rare for men and women to compete against each other, and mostly when they do, the men dominate. Take for example chess, a 100% mental game. Women usually play separate tournaments from men, but we exceptions to this. Judit Polgár is the most notable example. She has several times been ranked in the world’s top 10, and has beaten players who should be household names even to those that have no interest in chess, like Kasparov and Karpov, and finished joint 1st at the 2011 European Chess Championship. Although she is very much an exception to the rule, she shows that women can compete at a very high level in pure mental games.

In poker we have notable female players, and while poker is a game of high variance, the consistency with which they put up good results show this isn't a fluke. Kathy Liebert has won over $6 million in lifetime money, taking money in 30 WSP pokers events and finishing 17th twice. In other tournaments, she finished 2nd at the 2009 Bay 101 Shooting Stars open, and 3rd at the 2005 Borgata open. Good numbers, not the best in the world, but competitive and again, easily in the top 0.1% of players.

4.) Okay, so some women can compete, can Flo?

Looks like it. From watching her stream, and for her high masters ladder position, she seems to be better than at least 99% of people that play SC2 (and most likely in the top 0.1%). That is "good" by most definitions, but might not be "good enough" to be a progamer is she was a guy. Plenty of people are placed in high masters, and they don't get signed to the premier teams (and I think with what they have been doing recently, Quantic are able to be called that).

5.) Okay, so why did she get signed then?

The playing it for laughs answer here would clearly be breasts. But the serious answer is because she is a woman. That might not sound much different, so let’s try this again. Despite what her new teammate Naniwa would like, gaming teams are trying to make money, it isn't all about top tournament finishes. They are about getting a return on investment in sponsors and advertisers money, and despite some people feeling it is horribly unfair, reverse sexism or whatever else, women playing games does attract attention (heh, look at all the chat about it here !). In particular, it breaks outside the usual circle of gamers and gets mainstream attention. Over the years I've seen far more mainstream press (paper and online) coverage of women being involved in games than just generic events featuring men. Even when the press turn up to report on a LAN event, they will ALWAYS find and interview a woman. Putting your sponsors and advertisers brands in front of a new audience can be worth much more than just the same old online gaming community over and over again.

6.) Buuuuut, she’s doesn't look likely to win any major tournaments.

Yeah, she doesn't look like she is ready to win an MLG or a Dreamhack or a tournament of that calibre. However she does look like she might have the potential. If she doesn't just wear the Quantic tag, but actually practices with the rest of the team, she should hopefully improve. Yes, that last 0.01% of skill is the hardest by far to obtain, but maybe she can do it, and we won't know until she tries.

7.) So, what do you think holds back women in gaming?

In my opinion, to succeed at something you need three things:-

ABILITY: You need the natural talent within you, some people just don't have it. For athletic events that may be body shape, for esports it is more likely speed of thought and hand eye coordination. For example, you don't see very many short basketball players.
DEDICATION: To be the very best at something, you really do need to practice. You get the very rare person that has so much ability they can succeed without the same level of dedication as others in the field, but this is very rare. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker is a reasonable example though.
OPPORTUNITY: You need to have the opportunity to play the game. Sometimes this is about social factors, some sports and games (including PC esports) are very expensive. If you can't afford the tools needed to play, you will never find out if you are good enough. Sometimes it can be other social factors. How many potential esports champions did we lose to parents stopping gamers because it was a waste of time?. I'm sure many.

Genetically, men may be slightly predisposed to higher skill levels (better spatial awareness, hand/eye coordination), but I feel and the evidence from scientific studies tends to suggest this is a minor factor. Dedication (and the competitive attitude - being unhappy about playing poorly and losing) are something I find many more women lack. They want games to be fun, they don't want to get stressed out when they lose, and they just see losing as something that comes along with the playing. I know my wife doesn't understand why I get angry at myself when I blow a lead or do something dumb in a game, but having that drive to improve is critical to being a competitive player. I also feel women really don't get the same opportunity as men. Guys playing a lot of video games is only just becoming mainstream acceptable and I still feel it hasn't reached that for women yet. We still have quite a gender bias in what is acceptable in Western societies.

Flo certainly comes close to having the ability (I don't think we can be sure yet), she seems to be showing something like the dedication (but perhaps not going full blown Korean style yet), and she seems to have the opportunity (taking a break from studies to focus on SC2 can't have been an easy decision to make). Personally I wish her luck, and I hope to see good things from her in the future.