Season 5 Map Pool Changes Announced - Page 42

On December 22 2011 10:46 LuckyFool wrote:
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.

On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:



~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?

On December 22 2011 10:46 LuckyFool wrote:
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.

On December 22 2011 11:52 Meteora.GB wrote:
Seems like most of the complaint is coming from Zerg and Protoss players. From a glance as a Terran these maps don't look all that terrible, but I suppose its an entirely different matter for Zerg/Protoss.

Oh well. Just veto them.

On December 22 2011 10:29 Wasteweiser wrote:
complain complain complain no matta what, thats all people are good for, those bunker placements can be done on any other map btw..

On December 22 2011 09:46 HardMacro wrote:
Oh god PvZ is a NIGHTMARE on arid.

Seriously, since FFE is out of the question, I'm forced to x gate expand or tech- the problem is that zergs know this, and they simply take a fast third while keeping on top of scouting me, and the ridiculously covered and close third means pushes or tech cheeses are much more likely to fail than usual. However, in the games that I did manage to get my natural up without being significantly behind, I was able to take a very fast third myself as well on only 2-4 gates and defend it easily to gain a bit midgame advantage.

IMBA map for PvZ for sure, because most FFE builds revolves around a mid-game push or some kind of tech that forces the zerg to stop droning, but since the 3rd is so easily defended my zerg opponents have gone up to ~70 drones when my pushes hit and defended with ease due to the terrain, whereas they would have otherwise died or lost their 3rd on another map if they didn't stop droning at around 55 supply.

I play random so voting down is not an option - any ideas on approaching PvZ on this map? I'm thinking of some kind of hardcore turtle build with an ultra-fast 3rd and heavy upgrades, but zerg macro and larva inject facing ZERO pressure... doesn't seem too viable to me.

On December 22 2011 11:23 Tyrant0 wrote:


I'm not sure what the zerg is missing. A protoss sentry expands, pushes out 2-3 minutes late and somehow makes it to the natural when a zerg could be 30-40+ supply ahead and easily keep his army outside of the natural just for the option to flank. (a sentry expand which will obviously move out)

What league is this?

On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:



~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?

On December 22 2011 05:31 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I played some games today and noticed that 2 rax is incredibly broken on Entombed Valley. Here are some bunker placements I discovered:

1
Ignore the bunker at the ramp as it's not really the important part.

Now you can optionally start the bunker at the top left and trap a marine inside first, or you can just make the two bunkers next to the rocks and have a marine behind them. I'm not really sure that the first bunker is necessary, but either way the two at the rock are insanely good. Note: these form a full wall.

Creep really doesn't spread to the ramp fast enough, so it's possible to hop bunkers into range of the hatchery with the bunker at the ramp or near there. One advantage to this positioning is that spine crawlers really cant deal with it effectively compared to bunkering the bottom of the ramp, as the creep isn't close enough.

2
This second placement is possibly even better

Here you can tuck many marines in the pocket and hop a bunker immediately in range of the hatchery. This placement makes reinforcement incredibly easy and it's very hard to engage these bunkers without multiple spine crawlers. Conveniently this placement also makes it fairly difficult for a zerg to cut off reinforcements.

3
This placement is not particularly great, as it is not in range of the hatchery and is fairly far from reinforcements and the main ramp, but it's possible to bunker hop or just micro back and forth from the bunkers. The main problem is that these bunkers are very likely to finish and possibly even get up without a zerg seeing them if the overlord is spotting for other positions.

Note: these bunkers form a full wall.

4
This placement is superior to the previous one, although it's possible that creep will already be there unless it is an 11/11 rax or the zerg did not hatch first. These bunkers form a tight wall making it hard to stop both of them with drones and they are in range of both the hatchery and the ramp. Reinforcement distance is not very far.


One of the biggest problems I see here is that there are simply so many good bunker placements that a single overlord will not spot all of them, nor will a drone patrolling deal with them all. There's also obviously the usual double bunker at the bottom of the ramp that works like any other ladder map. Between these glaring problems, the close horizontal positions for tank pushes, the choke below the natural for tank pushes, and the ease of Terran or Protoss expanding, I think all zerg players should seriously consider vetoing this map immediately. These bunker placements are also potentially useful in TvP, so they're worth learning for any Terran player.

On December 22 2011 10:46 LuckyFool wrote:
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.

On December 22 2011 13:47 XenoX101 wrote:
First of all I'd like to just point out because I think its important that both posters below are in Diamond league, not to say this offensively as I myself am even in Diamond league, but it gives you an idea of where this apparent 'imbalance' is being recognized.






Secondly, regarding favourable positions and means of exploitation, does anyone remember the initial impressions of crossfire being such a P favoured map because of forcefields, and how it turned out to be 60% Z favoured map because of the good choices of engagements and strength of muta play? Remember when people first started doing the 3 bunker contain in TvZ on Shakuras and people whined that it was too effective? Even now we're seeing bunker rushes in between gas geysers that korean players are still managing to beat. Lets see firstly if these are even solid builds before going further, and then even if they are let the metagame shift and see what people come up with to counter them, because this shit happens all the time with maps. In 99% of cases you can't take a few days of playing on a map as 'proof' that something is imbalanced, it does a huge disservice to the complexity of the map and the metagame and how closely they're intertwined.

On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:



~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?