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Season 5 Map Pool Changes Announced - Page 42

Forum Index > SC2 General
876 CommentsPost a Reply
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LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
December 22 2011 01:46 GMT
#821
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.
Heraklitus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States553 Posts
December 22 2011 01:47 GMT
#822
On December 22 2011 10:46 LuckyFool wrote:
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.


What didn't you like about them?
Shadow_Dog
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada427 Posts
December 22 2011 01:48 GMT
#823
Disappointing maps...
Uhh Negative
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1090 Posts
December 22 2011 01:57 GMT
#824
Arid Plateau is pretty bad but Entombed valley is great!
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
December 22 2011 02:23 GMT
#825
On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:

[image loading]

~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?


I'm not sure what the zerg is missing. A protoss sentry expands, pushes out 2-3 minutes late and somehow makes it to the natural when a zerg could be 30-40+ supply ahead and easily keep his army outside of the natural just for the option to flank. (a sentry expand which will obviously move out)

What league is this?
paintfive
Profile Joined September 2011
785 Posts
December 22 2011 02:27 GMT
#826
On December 22 2011 10:46 LuckyFool wrote:
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.


yeah, they're pretty bad. I vetoed both after playing one game on each.
Meteora.GB
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2479 Posts
December 22 2011 02:52 GMT
#827
Seems like most of the complaint is coming from Zerg and Protoss players. From a glance as a Terran these maps don't look all that terrible, but I suppose its an entirely different matter for Zerg/Protoss.

Oh well. Just veto them.
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
December 22 2011 03:14 GMT
#828
On December 22 2011 11:52 Meteora.GB wrote:
Seems like most of the complaint is coming from Zerg and Protoss players. From a glance as a Terran these maps don't look all that terrible, but I suppose its an entirely different matter for Zerg/Protoss.

Oh well. Just veto them.

Both maps are pretty hard for TvP in my opinion. You can 1/1/1 on both of them, but otherwise they definitely seem to favor protoss.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Keyz1
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada94 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 03:35:32
December 22 2011 03:34 GMT
#829
Arid plateau isnt that bad.

Entombed Valley is vetoed but then took it off. I now play with 0 vetoes.

It had close position, but I decided its gonna be like Antiga close position, so I might as well get used to killing the rocks under your natural if you spawn horizontal positions.

Just gotta grow balls and decide to play every map I guess. The rewarding part is, if you get past 10minutes vs protoss on that map, you can use Mutalisk play etc. But basically all the expos on the map can be yours, just like Tal darim/Antiga. Can't be afraid of a map so early, and gotta take the smarter third bases I guess. It's not like any protoss is going to go up your Natural Ramp full of spines to attack. There's only one way in.
CeliosB
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada100 Posts
December 22 2011 04:01 GMT
#830
On December 22 2011 10:29 Wasteweiser wrote:
complain complain complain no matta what, thats all people are good for, those bunker placements can be done on any other map btw..

if people dont complain then how will blizzard no what to fix?
"To ze bank" -Stephano
Mojar
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia185 Posts
December 22 2011 04:33 GMT
#831
On December 22 2011 09:46 HardMacro wrote:
Oh god PvZ is a NIGHTMARE on arid.

Seriously, since FFE is out of the question, I'm forced to x gate expand or tech- the problem is that zergs know this, and they simply take a fast third while keeping on top of scouting me, and the ridiculously covered and close third means pushes or tech cheeses are much more likely to fail than usual. However, in the games that I did manage to get my natural up without being significantly behind, I was able to take a very fast third myself as well on only 2-4 gates and defend it easily to gain a bit midgame advantage.

IMBA map for PvZ for sure, because most FFE builds revolves around a mid-game push or some kind of tech that forces the zerg to stop droning, but since the 3rd is so easily defended my zerg opponents have gone up to ~70 drones when my pushes hit and defended with ease due to the terrain, whereas they would have otherwise died or lost their 3rd on another map if they didn't stop droning at around 55 supply.

I play random so voting down is not an option - any ideas on approaching PvZ on this map? I'm thinking of some kind of hardcore turtle build with an ultra-fast 3rd and heavy upgrades, but zerg macro and larva inject facing ZERO pressure... doesn't seem too viable to me.



You do realise you can just 5 or 6 gate the back of their natural and you win.
Dauntless
Profile Joined May 2010
Norway548 Posts
December 22 2011 04:37 GMT
#832
On December 22 2011 11:23 Tyrant0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:

[image loading]

~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?


I'm not sure what the zerg is missing. A protoss sentry expands, pushes out 2-3 minutes late and somehow makes it to the natural when a zerg could be 30-40+ supply ahead and easily keep his army outside of the natural just for the option to flank. (a sentry expand which will obviously move out)

What league is this?

This, exactly. P has to 1gate or 3gate expand, which puts Z ahead economically right off the bat, then P has to move out on a very open map, trying to cling to whatever walls are near, meanwhile there are at least 3 additional attack paths Z can run through to flank the entire army or counter attack whenever he feels like it.

I can see Stargate play being viable on this map though, but that's preferred as a transition out of FFE. Long distances between main and nat AND 3rd, plus a lot of no-ground space to place flying units where they can micro safely.
Dauntless.156 EU || Liquid´HerO | Grubby.Grubby
XenoX101
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia729 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 04:50:56
December 22 2011 04:47 GMT
#833
First of all I'd like to just point out because I think its important that both posters below are in Diamond league, not to say this offensively as I myself am even in Diamond league, but it gives you an idea of where this apparent 'imbalance' is being recognized.

On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:

[image loading]

~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?


On December 22 2011 05:31 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I played some games today and noticed that 2 rax is incredibly broken on Entombed Valley. Here are some bunker placements I discovered:

1
Ignore the bunker at the ramp as it's not really the important part.
[image loading]
Now you can optionally start the bunker at the top left and trap a marine inside first, or you can just make the two bunkers next to the rocks and have a marine behind them. I'm not really sure that the first bunker is necessary, but either way the two at the rock are insanely good. Note: these form a full wall.

Creep really doesn't spread to the ramp fast enough, so it's possible to hop bunkers into range of the hatchery with the bunker at the ramp or near there. One advantage to this positioning is that spine crawlers really cant deal with it effectively compared to bunkering the bottom of the ramp, as the creep isn't close enough.

2
This second placement is possibly even better
[image loading]
Here you can tuck many marines in the pocket and hop a bunker immediately in range of the hatchery. This placement makes reinforcement incredibly easy and it's very hard to engage these bunkers without multiple spine crawlers. Conveniently this placement also makes it fairly difficult for a zerg to cut off reinforcements.

3
This placement is not particularly great, as it is not in range of the hatchery and is fairly far from reinforcements and the main ramp, but it's possible to bunker hop or just micro back and forth from the bunkers. The main problem is that these bunkers are very likely to finish and possibly even get up without a zerg seeing them if the overlord is spotting for other positions.
[image loading]
Note: these bunkers form a full wall.

4
This placement is superior to the previous one, although it's possible that creep will already be there unless it is an 11/11 rax or the zerg did not hatch first. These bunkers form a tight wall making it hard to stop both of them with drones and they are in range of both the hatchery and the ramp. Reinforcement distance is not very far.
[image loading]

One of the biggest problems I see here is that there are simply so many good bunker placements that a single overlord will not spot all of them, nor will a drone patrolling deal with them all. There's also obviously the usual double bunker at the bottom of the ramp that works like any other ladder map. Between these glaring problems, the close horizontal positions for tank pushes, the choke below the natural for tank pushes, and the ease of Terran or Protoss expanding, I think all zerg players should seriously consider vetoing this map immediately. These bunker placements are also potentially useful in TvP, so they're worth learning for any Terran player.



Secondly, regarding favourable positions and means of exploitation, does anyone remember the initial impressions of crossfire being such a P favoured map because of forcefields, and how it turned out to be 60% Z favoured map because of the good choices of engagements and strength of muta play? Remember when people first started doing the 3 bunker contain in TvZ on Shakuras and people whined that it was too effective? Even now we're seeing bunker rushes in between gas geysers that korean players are still managing to beat. Lets see firstly if these are even solid builds before going further, and then even if they are let the metagame shift and see what people come up with to counter them, because this shit happens all the time with maps. In 99% of cases you can't take a few days of playing on a map as 'proof' that something is imbalanced, it does a huge disservice to the complexity of the map and the metagame and how closely they're intertwined.
Flipside
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States141 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 04:54:19
December 22 2011 04:53 GMT
#834
There is a lot of stupid things on these maps like the bunker placements. Also the second ally next to the natural on Arid and the wide open third.
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
December 22 2011 04:58 GMT
#835
overall, i think the maps are fun after a few games one each. with some tweaks, i think entombed can potentially become a tourney map. the desert one is too small, and i don't like how open the natural is, but with some sim city it's fine too.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
December 22 2011 05:02 GMT
#836
On December 22 2011 10:46 LuckyFool wrote:
both maps are utter trash. I played 1 game on each just to confirm how retarded they were. Yup.


You sound pretty mad. These are great terran maps actually, so I don't know what you're complaining about!
Pajegetc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3158 Posts
December 22 2011 05:05 GMT
#837
I like Arid Plateau, seems like a really solid Macro map.

Emtombed Valley feels like a rehashed Typhoon Peaks.
Lose Early game - Cheese. Lose Mid Game - All Ined. Lose Late Game - OMG IMBALANCE. My Guide to Zerg LR.
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
December 22 2011 05:09 GMT
#838
I played a couple games on both, and I don't think they are too bad. I like them better than antiga actually, but I'll have to play some more games on the new maps to see whether I'll keep 'em for good. entombed is kind of annoying when it isn't cross spawns though, while those bushes on arid are annoying as well.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10348 Posts
December 22 2011 05:20 GMT
#839
On December 22 2011 13:47 XenoX101 wrote:
First of all I'd like to just point out because I think its important that both posters below are in Diamond league, not to say this offensively as I myself am even in Diamond league, but it gives you an idea of where this apparent 'imbalance' is being recognized.

Show nested quote +
On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:

[image loading]

~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?


Show nested quote +
On December 22 2011 05:31 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I played some games today and noticed that 2 rax is incredibly broken on Entombed Valley. Here are some bunker placements I discovered:

1
Ignore the bunker at the ramp as it's not really the important part.
[image loading]
Now you can optionally start the bunker at the top left and trap a marine inside first, or you can just make the two bunkers next to the rocks and have a marine behind them. I'm not really sure that the first bunker is necessary, but either way the two at the rock are insanely good. Note: these form a full wall.

Creep really doesn't spread to the ramp fast enough, so it's possible to hop bunkers into range of the hatchery with the bunker at the ramp or near there. One advantage to this positioning is that spine crawlers really cant deal with it effectively compared to bunkering the bottom of the ramp, as the creep isn't close enough.

2
This second placement is possibly even better
[image loading]
Here you can tuck many marines in the pocket and hop a bunker immediately in range of the hatchery. This placement makes reinforcement incredibly easy and it's very hard to engage these bunkers without multiple spine crawlers. Conveniently this placement also makes it fairly difficult for a zerg to cut off reinforcements.

3
This placement is not particularly great, as it is not in range of the hatchery and is fairly far from reinforcements and the main ramp, but it's possible to bunker hop or just micro back and forth from the bunkers. The main problem is that these bunkers are very likely to finish and possibly even get up without a zerg seeing them if the overlord is spotting for other positions.
[image loading]
Note: these bunkers form a full wall.

4
This placement is superior to the previous one, although it's possible that creep will already be there unless it is an 11/11 rax or the zerg did not hatch first. These bunkers form a tight wall making it hard to stop both of them with drones and they are in range of both the hatchery and the ramp. Reinforcement distance is not very far.
[image loading]

One of the biggest problems I see here is that there are simply so many good bunker placements that a single overlord will not spot all of them, nor will a drone patrolling deal with them all. There's also obviously the usual double bunker at the bottom of the ramp that works like any other ladder map. Between these glaring problems, the close horizontal positions for tank pushes, the choke below the natural for tank pushes, and the ease of Terran or Protoss expanding, I think all zerg players should seriously consider vetoing this map immediately. These bunker placements are also potentially useful in TvP, so they're worth learning for any Terran player.



Secondly, regarding favourable positions and means of exploitation, does anyone remember the initial impressions of crossfire being such a P favoured map because of forcefields, and how it turned out to be 60% Z favoured map because of the good choices of engagements and strength of muta play? Remember when people first started doing the 3 bunker contain in TvZ on Shakuras and people whined that it was too effective? Even now we're seeing bunker rushes in between gas geysers that korean players are still managing to beat. Lets see firstly if these are even solid builds before going further, and then even if they are let the metagame shift and see what people come up with to counter them, because this shit happens all the time with maps. In 99% of cases you can't take a few days of playing on a map as 'proof' that something is imbalanced, it does a huge disservice to the complexity of the map and the metagame and how closely they're intertwined.


Well said.

Anyone remember Xel'Naga? It was the weirdest, ugliest map anyone had seen. But then it became one of the best balanced and most interesting maps. Until recently, of course, with the 1-1-1 all-in and such xD.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20309 Posts
December 22 2011 05:26 GMT
#840
On December 22 2011 08:56 Sentient wrote:
I can't figure out how Zerg is supposed to live on Arid Plateau (and I'm posting this as a Protoss player!). I haven't lost a PvZ here yet doing the most derp strategy (after sentry expand, it's not even all in!). Exhibit:

[image loading]

~10 minute attack with +1 sentry stalker and scouting observer. Forcefields make it a total clusterf--- for the Zerg and almost impossible. A few people have put down spine crawlers there, but the bushes make the crawler useless without an overlord...which the stalkers can just snipe. Ordinarily a standard amount of roach ling with crawlers would crush this attack, but the positioning is so laughable.

Am I missing something? Is Zerg's only option to all in counter attack (which is pretty easy to defend with wall + cannon)?



You can make that wall with two forcefields, not three, making it worse.

I had high hopes for entombed (even though arid was instant veto for me preferring FFE style but i guess they have been shot down.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
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