This is a man's world, this is a man's world But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl -It's a Man's Man's Man's World, James Brown
The opening lines from this classic James Brown song are strikingly apt for the landscape of StarCraft 2, and really competitive gaming as a whole. In other ESPORTS, like CS1.6 and WC3, there have been some female-only events, and there have been some relatively small online cups for females on SC2, but by and large SC2 participation follows the general ESPORTS trend of being dominated by males. That's not to say there has been no female participation outside of female-only tournaments. Of course some players, such as flo and megumixbear, have entered the open bracket at MLG and acquitted themselves decently. But on the whole there's no denying the gender imbalance.
This tournament could be the impetus that gets the ball rolling on correcting that imbalance. There is always a segment of the population that will play sheerly out of passion and love for the game (shoutout to the foreign BW community), but the reality is that without real financial incentives, it's hard to support the kind of lifestyle (full-time practice, basically) that is required to compete on the very highest level.
For the general SC2 community, that incentive already exists, but still the female community lags behind in participation. Perhaps they just need something to kick start them, to motivate them, and to help them to give them something to aim for. Ideally female-only tournaments won't be a permanent thing - in my mind they're a great temporary measure to help raise interest, but hopefully they'll eventually be no longer necessary as significant amounts of women make an impact in open tournaments.
Player Previews
By: Antoine
Anna ‘Laejten' Nordlander, Sweden
Laejten is quite the well-rounded gamer. Having been a past sponsored pro in World of Warcraft arena, and still repping the Counter-Strike 1.6 scene, she probably has the most travel and tournament experience out of the participants in this tournament. On the other hand, her versatility is working against her. As recently as two weeks ago, she was participating in the 1.6 tournament at ESWC, and spent almost all of her time leading up to that tournament practicing in that game rather than laddering. Still, one shouldn't count her out. Good friends with many top progamers, including many of her fellow swedes, Laejten has no shortage of people to turn to for advice. She has also been the most driven of any of the participants in the days leading up to the tournament, taking almost no breaks and practicing well into meals.
Chi Hun ‘SsQ’ Chun, Taiwan
Another veteran of the progaming scene (for her, WarCraft 3 and Halo), SsQ is no stranger to the spotlight. Playing a live tournament will be just another standard day for a rather standard terran player. Watching over her shoulder, she plays standard but not overly safe - what could actually be the most dangerous style in the Best of 1 round robin round. In that kind of situation, standard becomes predictable, and without being overly safe SsQ could prove vulnerably to cheeses more commonly found in Bo1s. On the other hand, standard is reliable. With enough practice, somebody who plays standard knows all of the small adjustments necessary to beat a whole variety of strategies. SsQ's success in her international debut in StarCraft 2 will depend largely on her adaptability.
Florence ‘Flo’ Chee-Yun Yao, USA
Although other competitors have may have Flo beat on overall LAN background, she is the one out of them who has the most experience playing StarCraft 2 in such a setting. Having participated in the open bracket at a number of different MLGs, she is no stranger to the unique challenges of a StarCraft 2 live tournament. She also has won a number of online cups for females, twice defeating Laejten on the path to Iron Lady cup titles. Flo got to the location a day earlier than most of the other competitors and spent it practicing and adapting to all the local conditions, so she should be easily as comfortable as those native to the time zone. With no outside factors holding her back, and looking at past success as a guide, Flo is a definite contender for the title.
Ga-Young ‘aphrodite’ Kim, Korea
Any regular follower of RainBOw's stream will be familiar with Aphrodite as a guest streamer. Although she first gained notoriety as RainBOw's girlfriend, she has quite the talent of her own, including a rather diverse pool of strategies in her back pocket from which she chooses. She also has the advantage of Kim Sung Je and the StarTale manager traveling with her - besides the in-attendance-significant-other bounce that has manifested itself countless times this year, you aren't going to find many more qualified coaches around to go over any mistakes found in matches, corrected for the next match or the next day. Between that and her success in the Korean Masters League, Aphrodite is definitely one of the favorites in this tournament.
Roxanne ’DaSakura’ Daviault, Canada
Although Flo had a lot of success in the earlier online female-only cups, DaSakura is one of a few who have come on very strong recently, winning three of them in three months. She's also no stranger to hitting top progamers on ladder, beating the likes of Drewbie and TT1. RainBOw also mentioned that he ran into her while he was streaming a little while ago. This is her first LAN, though, and there's no denying the roles play in such a situation. This tournament may be unique because of the lack of a live audience, but the pressure is still there. Her recent success may indicate that she has the best chance out of the western participants, assuming no nerve issues interfere.
Zhu ‘Colagirl’ Li, China
As one of the most successful females in WarCraft 3, and a very high ranking ladder player, Colagirl may be the smart money in this tournament. Her fellow eastern team representatives in the exhibition match have chosen her as the captain, so it is clear that she commands respect. She seems to prefer infestors to mutas in TvZ, and so can only be helped by the EMP change in patch 1.4.2 (which just hit days ago). However, being the favorite isn't easy - it adds loads of pressure to the unprepared player, and when that's combined with the fact that she's the homeland hero in China, nobody else has so many hopes and expectations pinned to her run. If she can succeed the gratification will be immense, and she should be well prepared for the attention after how much she received in WC3.
Danny Ramkvist Interview
ZOWIE's Chief Marketing Officer speaks
By: Antoine
This is by far the largest female-only event (by prize) in the StarCraft 2 scene yet. There have been some competitions with smaller prize pool, but certainly nothing of this scale. What made you decide now was the right time to take such a step?
I don’t think the timing is particularly better now than at any other time, the ZOWIE DIVINA is something we have been planning for a while and just worked towards it. Finally all of the pieces started to fall into place and we could actualize our plans.
At a time when many tournaments are moving away from invite-only to including qualifiers, this tournament is a 6-woman invitational. Were qualifiers considered? Past that, how were the 6 ladies chosen?
In the initial considerations we were a bit confused about the “proper” number of participants for a tournament of this sort, we knew that we wanted to gather the top players of the female StarCraft 2 scene without compromising on the quality of the event, but at the same time we wanted to ensure that we were able to give the girls the best experience while attending the tournament. We finally decided to go for a compact event with six players to ensure that we could deliver a quality event.
The selection process was a little bit complicated at first, we tried to reach girls based on results of previous tournaments, but we quickly figured that there was not many tournaments with female participation, where we could actually use the results to evaluate performances. Instead we started asking everyone in our network to kindly give us the names of all female players they knew of, who had the skill and dedication to compete at the highest level. The list was not THAT long, but we did end up with around 20 names in total.
We then looked into recent results, focusing on results from LAN, and some girls had not really been active in the past few months, so they were sorted out naturally. A few were still playing BW, so they were also out of the question. All in all I think we had about 12 girls left where we only needed half. Our final decision was made based on feedback and reputation of the girls, combined with an evaluation of their overall skill, dedication and effort.
Do you see this as a one-off event or is this something you'd like to do more of in the future?
We will definitely be having more ZOWIE DIVINA tournaments in the future.
We want to make ZOWIE DIVINA the cream of the crop with regards to female gaming tournaments, an event female gamers will aspire to attend, so they practice hard and long - when the female players practice, they are playing vs males, so the transition into the general tournaments will at some point come naturally, as they grow confident and realize that the males can be beaten.
Was there any particular reason China was chosen to host the event?
We decided to have the event in China because of past experiences working with PLU. They are always very dedicated and precise and we knew that they would be able to deliver the type of quality event that we were looking to create with ZOWIE DIVINA.
Female interest in SC2 is lower than male interest. Do you believe this is just a matter of gender preferences, or would carrots like this tournament help to engender higher participation and/or more enthusiasm about taking the game more seriously?
I think it is most likely a matter of gender preference, many girls still think it’s “nerdy” to play games and spend many hours in front of the computer, but the development with social medias over the past few years have led to more girls spending massive amounts of hours in front of their computers.
There is still a small step between the daily social media activities to online gaming, but I think we are definitely moving towards a higher population of girls in gaming with a somewhat decent pace. We will get there.
While some of the past issues involving females in SC2 may have clued you in to some of the expected response, was it entirely what you expected? Is there anything you'd like to say to those saying this is a sexist idea, or others along the same lines?
I think most gamers have reflected positively upon our initiative, at least the feedback we have received has been very positive, and most people recognize what we are trying to do for the community.
I don’t understand why some people cry over one female gaming tournament, when there is still like 50 professional general tournaments, completely dominated by males, for every one female tournament. Some people are just always going to hate and go against the flow for whatever reason. The male gaming scene has had around 10 years to develop itself, but it’s not until recent years we have seen girls come in and start competing. I think these people just need to slow down and allow female gamers to adapt to competitive gaming, so they can slowly but steadily reach towards the same level as the males.
When everything comes down to it, anyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I don’t want to spend my time converting those who don’t believe in female gaming. We try to work with different ideas that can make a difference for electronic sports, and these ideas will not always work – but we are willing to put in the effort to try. If people disagree, they are free to believe what they want. I will rather spend my time focusing on the part of the community that is ready to move on.
The event starts tomorrow (Friday, Nov 11 12:30pm GMT (GMT+00:00)) with an exhibition match in the form of a winner's league-format East vs. West battle, and the tournament proper takes place over the following two days.
Special thanks to pathy, one of our newest graphics staff, for making this so pretty, and of course HawaiianPig the css bonjwa. Pachi helped too.
I think it's time that SC2 was expanded beyond the steriotypical "nerdy guy" demographic. There are so many communities that I think could be introduced to SC2 through specialty tournaments like these. I like the idea and hope it works out!
I'm very excited that we as an export are promoting female players, but I'm a little disappointed that the promotional imaging has to be entirely pink, purple, and baby blue. It would be nice for this to stress the opportunity aspect and not the "omg girls" aspect.
These tournaments are awesome, would watch this stream.
I want a female Zerg player to reach the GSL so we can all cheer for "the queen of blades". If she got matched against Nestea it would be the ultimate battle of the sexes.
I think that having even a single female player going pro would rid e-sports almost immediately of it's "nerd" status.
On November 11 2011 04:54 Sueco wrote: These tournaments are awesome, would watch this stream.
I want a female Zerg player to reach the GSL so we can all cheer for "the queen of blades". If she got matched against Nestea it would be the ultimate battle of the sexes.
I think that having even a single female player going pro would rid e-sports almost immediately of it's "nerd" status.
Haha, that would be awesome. Maybe someday.
Everything that comes out of sweden is beautiful O_O (yes, I'm mostly talking about you, Jinro ~~<3). Should be a good tournament, hopefully this doesn't devolve into a crappy debate thread like they all seem to. Nice initiative by ZOWIE!
On November 11 2011 04:54 ishboh wrote: how are all of these girls attractive? where are the fat girls? seriously i didn't know good looking girls actually played games :O
I like to see female cups getting more recognition. it would be nice to grow the female sc2 community :D
On November 11 2011 04:54 ishboh wrote: how are all of these girls attractive? where are the fat girls? seriously i didn't know good looking girls actually played games :O
I like to see female cups getting more recognition. it would be nice to grow the female sc2 community :D
Sorry, would you also be surprised if 6 male gamers were there that aren't fat? Some gamers are overweight, but the vast majority isn't. Let's look at the best foreigners, HuK, Idra, Stephano, Thorzain none of them is overweight.
if we had a tournament that explicitly stated men only imagine all the QQ about sexism. (even though all major tournaments are comprised of only men anyways)
I think this should be a featured news, this is like the biggest female tournament to date. They are really good players and deserve the spotlight as every other player.
I think its complete bullshit and sexist for an all-female tournament. Is MLG or Dreamhack all male tournies, nope, females shouldn't get different treatment in a game because they are female, they should have to face the best of the best to become the best.
This should be an interesting tournament. Guess I should cheer for DaSakura! Thanks for the write up.
On November 11 2011 05:25 FluXen wrote: I think its complete bullshit and sexist for an all-female tournament. Is MLG or Dreamhack all male tournies, nope, females shouldn't get different treatment in a game because they are female, they should have to face the best of the best to become the best.
Don't watch or read about it if it bugs you so much. Maybe you can run your own tournament with a nice prize pool, invite them and 6 other top male progamers, I am sure they will join it regardless of what sexes are competing.
Oh and if you read the whole OP you would have seen this gem in there.
Q: While some of the past issues involving females in SC2 may have clued you in to some of the expected response, was it entirely what you expected? Is there anything you'd like to say to those saying this is a sexist idea, or others along the same lines?
A: I think most gamers have reflected positively upon our initiative, at least the feedback we have received has been very positive, and most people recognize what we are trying to do for the community.
I don’t understand why some people cry over one female gaming tournament, when there is still like 50 professional general tournaments, completely dominated by males, for every one female tournament. Some people are just always going to hate and go against the flow for whatever reason. The male gaming scene has had around 10 years to develop itself, but it’s not until recent years we have seen girls come in and start competing. I think these people just need to slow down and allow female gamers to adapt to competitive gaming, so they can slowly but steadily reach towards the same level as the males.
When everything comes down to it, anyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I don’t want to spend my time converting those who don’t believe in female gaming. We try to work with different ideas that can make a difference for electronic sports, and these ideas will not always work – but we are willing to put in the effort to try. If people disagree, they are free to believe what they want. I will rather spend my time focusing on the part of the community that is ready to move on.
Nice writeup Antoine, I'm actually surprised to see Laejten playing, she's also, I believe, dating Get_Right (I think its him, its one of the former Fnatic 1.6 players) who is one of the best 1.6 players in the world.
hmm...tl is so tame. i've lost faith in mankind. i also thought zowie divina was going to be some kind of keyboard or mouse. i also bet on Ga-Young ‘aphrodite’ Kim, because rainbow will pull an adam sandler and play for her.
On November 11 2011 04:53 Ambidexter wrote: I'm very excited that we as an export are promoting female players, but I'm a little disappointed that the promotional imaging has to be entirely pink, purple, and baby blue. It would be nice for this to stress the opportunity aspect and not the "omg girls" aspect.
Stephano would disapprove of your dislike towards pink. I heard he would have requested an invitation if the western team was not the blue one.
More seriously, since we're talking layout and graphism : I'm surprised that this news piece (nice write-up btw) is categorized as "community news", when it has every aspect of "featured news". Any reason behind this ? Or am I too curious ?
On November 11 2011 05:51 Zorgaz wrote: No Protoss!? Haha for some reason I've always thought females would prefer P.
I can't say I'm sad to only see Z and T though .
Will be some entertaining games !
To me it seems like most girls play Zerg. They seem to think they are "cute" or something (don't know how on earth anyone would find Zerg cute though). Or maybe it's just that the Zerg has a female commander. Yeah, that's it, zerg's definately the feminist race.
I'll tune in! Gotta say, I wasn't a fan of female only tournaments at first, purely because of anti-sexist arguments, but some of the points on the page make sense I guess. So I hope it'll be fun to watch. =) Only sad thing is that there is no tossgirl.
Why are people complaining about sexism in an all-female tournament? It's obvious that there is no need for an all-male tournament. Not being sexist, just a true observation. I really like this idea. It'll showcase these ladies and their skills to the community that hasn't seen them before. Let capitalism decide if it's a good idea. Thanks to Zowie for the tourney! I look forward to it!
This is really cool! I will watch. I do wish there had been qualifiers or something so us no-names could have a chance at competing in this big of an event, but I do understand the need to use known names who have proven results so it has a better chance of large viewers, especially as this is the first one (hopefully not last!). Good luck ladies! <3
Mizy:: Arguably, the best female sc2 player currently plays as toss. Luway was not able to attend though. She does have a stream up but usually only streams once or twice a week. You may still may be angry with her for 2-0'ing Moonglade back in nation cup. :p
On November 11 2011 07:17 teer wrote: Mizy:: Arguably, the best female sc2 player currently plays as toss. Luway was not able to attend though. She does have a stream up but usually only streams once or twice a week. You may still may be angry with her for 2-0'ing Moonglade back in nation cup. :p
She 2-0'd Moonglade? Sounds like she's legit, why doesn't she participate in more tournaments?
Zzoram :: She is similar to Megumi. She has a full time job and its very hard to get vacation. She does participate in Taiwanese tournaments though. But my predictions for this :: Flo vs Dasakura finals. Winner goes on to beat TT1 in a show match. Flo has been practicing and has more lan experience but if Dasakura has been practicing as well I see Dasakura > Flo in a close series. But my heart is with Flo!! TERRAN POWWAA!!!
On November 11 2011 05:32 Waxangel wrote: SlayerS_Eve I assume is at the G-Star Convention in Korea, which is going on right now (also where the AoL II tourney is being played)
really? I thought it had to do with that special slayers couple event tommorrow.
On November 11 2011 07:18 TT1 wrote: wat the fuck why is my name always included in these female gamer threads, pls post the replay of me losing vs her
On November 11 2011 07:18 TT1 wrote: wat the fuck why is my name always included in these female gamer threads, pls post the replay of me losing vs her
This article does not change my opinion of this event. I think that this is the reason why female gamers get little to no respect. At least in my eyes, the fact that this is a female-only event makes it seem like they are afraid of entering a normal tournament. I know that is not the case 99% of the time, but I am saying it hints very strongly towards that opinion.
As for the article itself: You give examples of one of them taking games off of pro or semi-pro players, then you say something like this "...as they grow confident and realize that the males can be beaten." Again this hints at what I said before about girls being afraid of losing to guys in a tournament.
Do you think that this tournament will give them more confidence to enter something like MLG? I dont. Why would they want to go to an MLG when they can just do another one of these female-only tournaments instead? By hosting this tournament you are further encouraging that males and females remain separated in the gaming world. The only reason physical sports is different is because it is a PHYSICAL activity where males, in general, have a biologicial advantage. If there are any super smart scientists out there correct me if I am wrong, but THERE ARE NO mental advantages that males have over females. Guess what, starcraft 2 is a mental game, much like Poker or Chess.
Here is another one that pissed me off: "I think these people just need to slow down and allow female gamers to adapt to competitive gaming, so they can slowly but steadily reach towards the same level as the males."
I am a male player, does that mean I'm as good as NesTea and that I can beat every single one of these female gamers every single time? NOPE! Does that mean that I am not scared of playing against a pro player? NOPE. This isnt about "believing in female gaming." That kind of attitude does not help the community grow.
On a side note, I have never once heard anyone ever say that someone cannot be good at a game because they are a girl. This article blows that kind of perspective way out of proportion. I've played games online for ~10 years. Do you know how many girls play WoW successfully? A ton. Yeah they role play and things like that, but every good raiding guild that Ive ever been in had at least 3-4 girls LEADING raids. They are competing per se, but they hold a position of respect in that community.
I am not of the belief that I can change anyones mind about hosting this tournament or any other tournament. Sure, do your female-only tournaments, have fun, grow that community, but be aware that it can only hurt esports as a whole. "Yeah those girls only play in that divinia tournament because they are too afraid to enter a real tournament like MLG" <--- I hear this statement coming from all the other male gamers (or even female) in the furture if these tournaments become more common.
If female gamers want more respect or feel like they are harassed in the community (which for the most part they aren't and most of the time it's in the form of harmless jokes with a gamer-driven mentality that any commpetitive gamer, male or female, has) then they should learn and improve together with everyone else.
You think that you have heard the half of it? Try hosting a male-only tournament, I dare you. See what kind of shitstorm that raises if you think it has gone too far.
I think this is a great way to promote eSports for the ladies. I will definitely be following this. I'm so excited for this, and I'm very curious to see how good they are :D.
On November 11 2011 07:18 TT1 wrote: wat the fuck why is my name always included in these female gamer threads, pls post the replay of me losing vs her
On November 11 2011 07:18 TT1 wrote: wat the fuck why is my name always included in these female gamer threads, pls post the replay of me losing vs her
TT1, derailing the female SC2 esteem train with the power of facts.
On November 11 2011 07:50 ishyishy wrote: This article does not change my opinion of this event. I think that this is the reason why female gamers get little to no respect. At least in my eyes, the fact that this is a female-only event makes it seem like they are afraid of entering a normal tournament. I know that is not the case 99% of the time, but I am saying it hints very strongly towards that opinion.
As for the article itself: You give examples of one of them taking games off of pro or semi-pro players, then you say something like this "...as they grow confident and realize that the males can be beaten." Again this hints at what I said before about girls being afraid of losing to guys in a tournament.
Do you think that this tournament will give them more confidence to enter something like MLG? I dont. Why would they want to go to an MLG when they can just do another one of these female-only tournaments instead? By hosting this tournament you are further encouraging that males and females remain separated in the gaming world. The only reason physical sports is different is because it is a PHYSICAL activity where males, in general, have a biologicial advantage. If there are any super smart scientists out there correct me if I am wrong, but THERE ARE NO mental advantages that males have over females. Guess what, starcraft 2 is a mental game, much like Poker or Chess.
Here is another one that pissed me off: "I think these people just need to slow down and allow female gamers to adapt to competitive gaming, so they can slowly but steadily reach towards the same level as the males."
I am a male player, does that mean I'm as good as NesTea and that I can beat every single one of these female gamers every single time? NOPE! Does that mean that I am not scared of playing against a pro player? NOPE. This isnt about "believing in female gaming." That kind of attitude does not help the community grow.
On a side note, I have never once heard anyone ever say that someone cannot be good at a game because they are a girl. This article blows that kind of perspective way out of proportion. I've played games online for ~10 years. Do you know how many girls play WoW successfully? A ton. Yeah they role play and things like that, but every good raiding guild that Ive ever been in had at least 3-4 girls LEADING raids. They are competing per se, but they hold a position of respect in that community.
I am not of the belief that I can change anyones mind about hosting this tournament or any other tournament. Sure, do your female-only tournaments, have fun, grow that community, but be aware that it can only hurt esports as a whole. "Yeah those girls only play in that divinia tournament because they are too afraid to enter a real tournament like MLG" <--- I hear this statement coming from all the other male gamers (or even female) in the furture if these tournaments become more common.
If female gamers want more respect or feel like they are harassed in the community (which for the most part they aren't and most of the time it's in the form of harmless jokes with a gamer-driven mentality that any commpetitive gamer, male or female, has) then they should learn and improve together with everyone else.
You think that you have heard the half of it? Try hosting a male-only tournament, I dare you. See what kind of shitstorm that raises if you think it has gone too far.
Take this shit in a blog post. No ones gives a crap and this is not the right thread to discuss the concept of female only tournaments.
The OP is sexist. Period. I'm not saying the tournament is sexist. Look at the girls involved. They're all very good looking. So are the casters. One of the girls is a diamond player. How exactly did she make the list of the best female gamers in the world? This tournament is a publicity stunt. He said there were 12 girls considered. I want to see the list of the other 6. Let me see if you weeded them out based on looks or talent, cause you have a very good looking DIAMOND player in a tourney for 10k and you're claiming she has a chance. Are you ignorant or manipulative? This seems like a publicity stunt to me, operating under the idea that sex sells. I mean, even the format is terrible, and doesn't make sense for the largest prize pool in a female only tournament in the history of SC2.
The reason I say the OP is sexist is simple. He's saying that we need female only tournaments for women to join the scene. First off, women aren't going to have any idea these tournaments exist unless they're already PART of the scene. Secondly, this implies that women need special treatment, segregation, to be interested in gaming. Who here believes that? Look at Clan PMS. These girls are amazing. They compete, and sometimes dominate, in a myriad of different games. They do it for the competition, for the fun, for the comraderie, because they have passion for the game and gaming in general. Do you think a single one of the women in this tournament think the themselves "well, I was going to practice hard and play in tournaments, but I can't because I'm just a girl, and girls can't compete with guys". The OP is suggesting they do. That's sexist.
Women who play video games are GAMERS. Period. The reason there are few women at the higher levels of SC2 is unknowable, but what we do know is that the percentage of women versus men is infintesimal. There are maybe, what, 3 dozen amazing SC2 players in the entire world? 5 dozen maybe? The reason women aren't represented isn't because women can't compete, that they are somehow disabled as the OP would suggest. Women aren't represented because of odds. Even out the number of men and women who play SC2 competitively, and there will be relatively the same number of women as men in the champ bracket of major tournaments. Guaranteed.
saw Flo play at MLG Anaheim, indeed a boss player. Choya and Oz were watching too and they said they were very impressed by her mechanics. I think Flo's got this!
On November 11 2011 08:25 Shel wrote: The OP is sexist. Period. I'm not saying the tournament is sexist. Look at the girls involved. They're all very good looking. So are the casters. One of the girls is a diamond player. How exactly did she make the list of the best female gamers in the world? This tournament is a publicity stunt. He said there were 12 girls considered. I want to see the list of the other 6. Let me see if you weeded them out based on looks or talent, cause you have a very good looking DIAMOND player in a tourney for 10k and you're claiming she has a chance. Are you ignorant or manipulative? This seems like a publicity stunt to me, operating under the idea that sex sells. I mean, even the format is terrible, and doesn't make sense for the largest prize pool in a female only tournament in the history of SC2.
The reason I say the OP is sexist is simple. He's saying that we need female only tournaments for women to join the scene. First off, women aren't going to have any idea these tournaments exist unless they're already PART of the scene. Secondly, this implies that women need special treatment, segregation, to be interested in gaming. Who here believes that? Look at Clan PMS. These girls are amazing. They compete, and sometimes dominate, in a myriad of different games. They do it for the competition, for the fun, for the comraderie, because they have passion for the game and gaming in general. Do you think a single one of the women in this tournament think the themselves "well, I was going to practice hard and play in tournaments, but I can't because I'm just a girl, and girls can't compete with guys". The OP is suggesting they do. That's sexist.
Women who play video games are GAMERS. Period. The reason there are few women at the higher levels of SC2 is unknowable, but what we do know is that the percentage of women versus men is infintesimal. There are maybe, what, 3 dozen amazing SC2 players in the entire world? 5 dozen maybe? The reason women aren't represented isn't because women can't compete, that they are somehow disabled as the OP would suggest. Women aren't represented because of odds. Even out the number of men and women who play SC2 competitively, and there will be relatively the same number of women as men in the champ bracket of major tournaments. Guaranteed.
No. There are few 'good' female players because SC2's target demographic is made up of mostly males.
Plus, I don't anyone here clicked the thread because they wanted to "rethink their morals" or see some dude whining because people are enjoying something he doesn't. People came here for entertainment and good games
On November 11 2011 08:25 Shel wrote: The OP is sexist. Period. I'm not saying the tournament is sexist. Look at the girls involved. They're all very good looking. So are the casters. One of the girls is a diamond player. How exactly did she make the list of the best female gamers in the world? This tournament is a publicity stunt. He said there were 12 girls considered. I want to see the list of the other 6. Let me see if you weeded them out based on looks or talent, cause you have a very good looking DIAMOND player in a tourney for 10k and you're claiming she has a chance. Are you ignorant or manipulative? This seems like a publicity stunt to me, operating under the idea that sex sells. I mean, even the format is terrible, and doesn't make sense for the largest prize pool in a female only tournament in the history of SC2.
The reason I say the OP is sexist is simple. He's saying that we need female only tournaments for women to join the scene. First off, women aren't going to have any idea these tournaments exist unless they're already PART of the scene. Secondly, this implies that women need special treatment, segregation, to be interested in gaming. Who here believes that? Look at Clan PMS. These girls are amazing. They compete, and sometimes dominate, in a myriad of different games. They do it for the competition, for the fun, for the comraderie, because they have passion for the game and gaming in general. Do you think a single one of the women in this tournament think the themselves "well, I was going to practice hard and play in tournaments, but I can't because I'm just a girl, and girls can't compete with guys". The OP is suggesting they do. That's sexist.
Women who play video games are GAMERS. Period. The reason there are few women at the higher levels of SC2 is unknowable, but what we do know is that the percentage of women versus men is infintesimal. There are maybe, what, 3 dozen amazing SC2 players in the entire world? 5 dozen maybe? The reason women aren't represented isn't because women can't compete, that they are somehow disabled as the OP would suggest. Women aren't represented because of odds. Even out the number of men and women who play SC2 competitively, and there will be relatively the same number of women as men in the champ bracket of major tournaments. Guaranteed.
No. There are few 'good' female players because SC2's target demographic is made up of mostly males.
Plus, I don't anyone here clicked the thread because they wanted to "rethink their morals" or see some dude whining because people are enjoying something he doesn't. People came here for entertainment and good games
aphrodite fighting!
I could give a fuck why people come to this post. I'm responding to the claims of the OP. And what makes you think I don't enjoy watching tournaments? As for the "target demographic" of SC2, it doesn't appear you actually know what that means. Because it sounds like you're saying Blizzard created this game for guys, which is patently untrue. They made it for gamers, casual and hardcore alike, just like they always do.
Look, if you don't want to engage in a "moral" discussion about the OP, then don't. But don't be an asshole either.
The OP is sexist. Period. I'm not saying the tournament is sexist. Look at the girls involved. They're all very good looking. So are the casters. One of the girls is a diamond player. How exactly did she make the list of the best female gamers in the world? This tournament is a publicity stunt. He said there were 12 girls considered. I want to see the list of the other 6. Let me see if you weeded them out based on looks or talent, cause you have a very good looking DIAMOND player in a tourney for 10k and you're claiming she has a chance. Are you ignorant or manipulative? This seems like a publicity stunt to me, operating under the idea that sex sells. I mean, even the format is terrible, and doesn't make sense for the largest prize pool in a female only tournament in the history of SC2.
The reason I say the OP is sexist is simple. He's saying that we need female only tournaments for women to join the scene. First off, women aren't going to have any idea these tournaments exist unless they're already PART of the scene. Secondly, this implies that women need special treatment, segregation, to be interested in gaming. Who here believes that? Look at Clan PMS. These girls are amazing. They compete, and sometimes dominate, in a myriad of different games. They do it for the competition, for the fun, for the comraderie, because they have passion for the game and gaming in general. Do you think a single one of the women in this tournament think the themselves "well, I was going to practice hard and play in tournaments, but I can't because I'm just a girl, and girls can't compete with guys". The OP is suggesting they do. That's sexist.
Women who play video games are GAMERS. Period. The reason there are few women at the higher levels of SC2 is unknowable, but what we do know is that the percentage of women versus men is infintesimal. There are maybe, what, 3 dozen amazing SC2 players in the entire world? 5 dozen maybe? The reason women aren't represented isn't because women can't compete, that they are somehow disabled as the OP would suggest. Women aren't represented because of odds. Even out the number of men and women who play SC2 competitively, and there will be relatively the same number of women as men in the champ bracket of major tournaments. Guaranteed.
Interesting point, The fact is this will help, and the underrepresented and challenge facing sex can use help. The OP doesn't say that women need help, just that this will help women. And your post did more harm to women in gaming than the wording of the OP. Be positive.
On November 11 2011 08:25 Shel wrote: The OP is sexist. Period. I'm not saying the tournament is sexist. Look at the girls involved. They're all very good looking. So are the casters. One of the girls is a diamond player. How exactly did she make the list of the best female gamers in the world? This tournament is a publicity stunt. He said there were 12 girls considered. I want to see the list of the other 6. Let me see if you weeded them out based on looks or talent, cause you have a very good looking DIAMOND player in a tourney for 10k and you're claiming she has a chance. Are you ignorant or manipulative? This seems like a publicity stunt to me, operating under the idea that sex sells. I mean, even the format is terrible, and doesn't make sense for the largest prize pool in a female only tournament in the history of SC2.
The reason I say the OP is sexist is simple. He's saying that we need female only tournaments for women to join the scene. First off, women aren't going to have any idea these tournaments exist unless they're already PART of the scene. Secondly, this implies that women need special treatment, segregation, to be interested in gaming. Who here believes that? Look at Clan PMS. These girls are amazing. They compete, and sometimes dominate, in a myriad of different games. They do it for the competition, for the fun, for the comraderie, because they have passion for the game and gaming in general. Do you think a single one of the women in this tournament think the themselves "well, I was going to practice hard and play in tournaments, but I can't because I'm just a girl, and girls can't compete with guys". The OP is suggesting they do. That's sexist.
Women who play video games are GAMERS. Period. The reason there are few women at the higher levels of SC2 is unknowable, but what we do know is that the percentage of women versus men is infintesimal. There are maybe, what, 3 dozen amazing SC2 players in the entire world? 5 dozen maybe? The reason women aren't represented isn't because women can't compete, that they are somehow disabled as the OP would suggest. Women aren't represented because of odds. Even out the number of men and women who play SC2 competitively, and there will be relatively the same number of women as men in the champ bracket of major tournaments. Guaranteed.
On November 11 2011 05:32 Waxangel wrote: SlayerS_Eve I assume is at the G-Star Convention in Korea, which is going on right now (also where the AoL II tourney is being played)
really? I thought it had to do with that special slayers couple event tommorrow.
some hotties. Will there be a bikini contest afterwards?
I'm kidding, I'm looking forward to seeing how talented they are. Kind of a shame that I don't get to see their faces at other lans more often? Why a female only tournament? Wouldn't that prove nothing? I'd rather see them compete with other male sc2 players just to see the difference. anyone else feel the same? seems like a special tournament for themselves will just reinforce that they don't belong with male sc2 gamers, that's just what i'm interpreting here.
God, you guys don't even see it. Saying women need female tournaments to be drawn to gaming is the same thing as saying women aren't drawn to gaming by major tournaments because they can't compete. He actually said that women need tournaments like this so they can slowly work their way up to a man's level. How in the hell does a tournament improve skill to begin with compared to, say, playing with excellent practice partners, but beyond that, what kind of crap is he saying? It's sexist.
Whoops, just saw the little note at the top of the page from the mod. I don't know why you're letting the dickhead OP get away with what he's saying, but whatever. Marketing thread it is.
On November 11 2011 09:10 AlexCMoi wrote: Why Poor TT1 ? Losing to a girl isnt insulting... also I was there when she played TT1 on ladder and it was a rape. End of the conversation.
must be a pretty famous game because ive read 4-5 female related tournament threads and someone always mentions this game and how she beat me, i wanna see the game so plz post the rep.. im sure she has it saved if its something worth talking about in every thread ^^
On November 11 2011 09:10 AlexCMoi wrote: Why Poor TT1 ? Losing to a girl isnt insulting... also I was there when she played TT1 on ladder and it was a rape. End of the conversation.
must be a pretty famous game because ive read 4-5 female related tournament threads and someone always mentions this game and how she beat me, i wanna see the game so plz post the rep.. im sure she has it saved if its something worth talking about in every thread ^^
OH SNAP SON. we got TT1 in here bustin knowledge
btw, someone get on a thread about how sexist this all is, there was a message saying we could do so. So... if that thread gets closed, well wouldn't that be funny?
All tournaments are marketing lol. You think all these companies sponsor tournaments because they just love giving money to gamers so much.
If a company decides that they can get better return on their investment by running a female only tournament then fair play to them, we'll just have to wait and see if they were right or not by looking at the stream counts.
On November 11 2011 09:10 AlexCMoi wrote: Why Poor TT1 ? Losing to a girl isnt insulting... also I was there when she played TT1 on ladder and it was a rape. End of the conversation.
must be a pretty famous game because ive read 4-5 female related tournament threads and someone always mentions this game and how she beat me, i wanna see the game so plz post the rep.. im sure she has it saved if its something worth talking about in every thread ^^
OH SNAP SON. we got TT1 in here bustin knowledge
btw, someone get on a thread about how sexist this all is, there was a message saying we could do so. So... if that thread gets closed, well wouldn't that be funny?
im honesty curious in seeing the game because this is starting to get really fucking annoying, i was ignoring the posts at first because i love female gamers and didnt want to downplay her win but my head is about to explode after seeing some1 bring this shit up for quadrizilion'eth time
Ahh, these threads always bring out the "equality" sexists, completely blind to the social context of female-only tournaments. No doubt, they would raise the same objections to affirmative action in college acceptance too, as they live in a world where everyone has the same opportunities and experience. "Work harder!," they intone, assuming laziness must be the issue, or implying some base inequality that must be accepted.
Hopefully most of these people are still in high school or college, and still have an opportunity to take a sociology class or two. StarCraft may seem like a meritocracy at a quick glance, but it's a deeply flawed one, where equal talent may not have the opportunity for equal results. I'd guess the casual sexism of the community is a large enough barrier to drive most women away. This is an attempt to make space. I wish it all the best.
On November 11 2011 09:10 AlexCMoi wrote: Why Poor TT1 ? Losing to a girl isnt insulting... also I was there when she played TT1 on ladder and it was a rape. End of the conversation.
must be a pretty famous game because ive read 4-5 female related tournament threads and someone always mentions this game and how she beat me, i wanna see the game so plz post the rep.. im sure she has it saved if its something worth talking about in every thread ^^
The circle jerk is already too deep for "facts" and "proof" to be brought into this.
Can't say I've ever heard of any of these players, but I'm looking forward to seeing the skill level of this. Also, big ups for promoting female gamers! :>
never heard of any of those players :| i dont care if a player is a female or male aslong as i get entertaining matches to spectate. good luck to the participants (someone of them have to do a TLO pls, retardedly hillarious gameplay is my favourite).
I'm obviously biased but props to ZOWIE for running a ballsy tournament like this and backing it up with $10,000. With any tournament you can't appease everyone, however, I'm looking forward to all future improved upon events (all female and all co-ed) from them.
Also I haven't seen it mentioned by anyone but all the players were given free travel and lodging from what I've heard as not many tournaments offer this and reason why if you're a player getting sponsored by an organization to pay for your airplane ticket and hotel to attend events is so obviously vital. Not saying this one factor determines what makes a tournament "good" or not but definitely deserves some respect.
More properly managed Starcraft 2 events only makes OUR entire scene (read: e-sports!) bigger. My 2 cents.
Pretty sad to see its only a 6 player tourney... but i guess the travel to china is a big barrier to overcome. I would've love to see Aurora from PMS play there, as well as Megumixbear, and im sure from all around the world a lot more high masters, grandmaster female players could've completed at least a Ro16. Or definitely consider a qualifier for the next one, so the female players that are not very known can show up and give us more games. Great games is what the viewership is wanting in every tournament. Here is hoping for some great games at least and Congratulations to the invitees. GL HF you all!
On November 11 2011 10:29 Niyanyo wrote: Pretty sad to see its only a 6 player tourney... but i guess the travel to china is a big barrier to overcome. I would've love to see Aurora from PMS play there, as well as Megumixbear, and im sure from all around the world a lot more high masters, grandmaster female players could've completed at least a Ro16. Or definitely consider a qualifier for the next one, so the female players that are not very known can show up and give us more games. Great games is what the viewership is wanting in every tournament. Here is hoping for some great games at least and Congratulations to the invitees. GL HF you all!
In the interview with ZOWIE more DIVINA tournaments (at least) were promised and on her stream Megumixbear said she had to politely decline due to work unfortunately.
Anywho looking forward to some good SC2 matches as a whole. GL HF for sure!
I don't get the shitstorm about this being female-only. I remember back before SC2 there were a lot of tournaments that refused Koreans (including TSL, I think) and I don't recall it raising a ton of racism complaints. But then again, I didn't read a lot of the posts back then, only came for the match schedules .
On November 11 2011 10:47 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I don't get the shitstorm about this being female-only. I remember back before SC2 there were a lot of tournaments that refused Koreans (including TSL, I think) and I don't recall it raising a ton of racism complaints. But then again, I didn't read a lot of the posts back then, only came for the match schedules .
There is no shitstorm, jus a loud minority. Most people just thinks it's great.
Comparing the inequality in a video game to racial inequality in real life isn't even close to an equal comparison.
SC2, as with ALL video games, is indeed a meritocracy. If you have the skill, you win the games, you get noticed, you get a sponsor (and I'd think a female gamer would actually have an easier time of getting sponsors), and then you go to major events and perform at your best. And, for the record, there is a diamond player in this pool of women, so I guess the meritocracy isn't working as well as I just claimed.
$10k is a pretty huge prize pool for a 6-person invitational, especially given that there is relatively little "star-power" from the invitees. I'm not sure if girl gamers will ever get to the level of guy gamers though - it's probably not a matter of talent, just a matter of drive/dedication. For example, I found this interview where DaSakura (one of the invitees) says the following:
ESL.NyxRose: Considering your own experiences with the Iron Lady tournaments and the Starcraft community, what are your thoughts on being a female gamer in the e-sports industry, in which the majority is made up of men?
DaSakura: Personally, I don’t think that girls can be as good as boys in Starcraft. When I lose two or three games in a row, I get mad and I stop playing for like an hour [blushes]. And I saw some girls’ streams and I saw a [bunch] of them getting mad when they lost, so my opinion is that boys will always be better at this kind of game.
ESL.NyxRose: Is one of your goals to reach that male competitive level you speak of?
DaSakura: Not really. I’m not addicted to this game. I don’t play that much. Last season I played like 200 games, maximum. So, I don’t think I’m enough in the game to reach this level.
There are some definite mental differences between men and women, so while it's not impossible for there to be a pro woman gamer, the mindset required to become a pro gamer might be pretty rare in women.
On November 11 2011 09:10 AlexCMoi wrote: Why Poor TT1 ? Losing to a girl isnt insulting... also I was there when she played TT1 on ladder and it was a rape. End of the conversation.
must be a pretty famous game because ive read 4-5 female related tournament threads and someone always mentions this game and how she beat me, i wanna see the game so plz post the rep.. im sure she has it saved if its something worth talking about in every thread ^^
OH SNAP SON. we got TT1 in here bustin knowledge
btw, someone get on a thread about how sexist this all is, there was a message saying we could do so. So... if that thread gets closed, well wouldn't that be funny?
im honesty curious in seeing the game because this is starting to get really fucking annoying, i was ignoring the posts at first because i love female gamers and didnt want to downplay her win but my head is about to explode after seeing some1 bring this shit up for quadrizilion'eth time
She have the replay on her computer if u really want to see it... but I remember the game perfectly... you want FE/forge and she wants double expo and then ling roach hydra play... u attacked with gateways units and switched to 2 stargates and she pushed. That's it, seriously if my girlfriend beat me I wouldnt be mad or anything... you can't win them all.
On November 11 2011 09:10 AlexCMoi wrote: Why Poor TT1 ? Losing to a girl isnt insulting... also I was there when she played TT1 on ladder and it was a rape. End of the conversation.
must be a pretty famous game because ive read 4-5 female related tournament threads and someone always mentions this game and how she beat me, i wanna see the game so plz post the rep.. im sure she has it saved if its something worth talking about in every thread ^^
OH SNAP SON. we got TT1 in here bustin knowledge
btw, someone get on a thread about how sexist this all is, there was a message saying we could do so. So... if that thread gets closed, well wouldn't that be funny?
im honesty curious in seeing the game because this is starting to get really fucking annoying, i was ignoring the posts at first because i love female gamers and didnt want to downplay her win but my head is about to explode after seeing some1 bring this shit up for quadrizilion'eth time
She have the replay on her computer if u really want to see it... but I remember the game perfectly... you want FE/forge and she wants double expo and then ling roach hydra play... u attacked with gateways units and switched to 2 stargates and she pushed. That's it, seriously if my girlfriend beat me I wouldnt be mad or anything... you can't win them all.
I'll post the replay when I could. I can't right now, I don't have my computer. But I remember the game pretty well, you went blink stalker, after that you made 2 stargates, and because of my overlord placement I saw them in your base, so that was easy to counter. Anyway, don't worry about that, I'll post the replay when I'll be back home. ^^ I saved that obviously.
On November 11 2011 11:02 delayed reflex wrote: $10k is a pretty huge prize pool for a 6-person invitational, especially given that there is relatively little "star-power" from the invitees. I'm not sure if girl gamers will ever get to the level of guy gamers though - it's probably not a matter of talent, just a matter of drive/dedication. For example, I found this interview where DaSakura (one of the invitees) says the following:
ESL.NyxRose: Considering your own experiences with the Iron Lady tournaments and the Starcraft community, what are your thoughts on being a female gamer in the e-sports industry, in which the majority is made up of men?
DaSakura: Personally, I don’t think that girls can be as good as boys in Starcraft. When I lose two or three games in a row, I get mad and I stop playing for like an hour [blushes]. And I saw some girls’ streams and I saw a [bunch] of them getting mad when they lost, so my opinion is that boys will always be better at this kind of game.
ESL.NyxRose: Is one of your goals to reach that male competitive level you speak of?
DaSakura: Not really. I’m not addicted to this game. I don’t play that much. Last season I played like 200 games, maximum. So, I don’t think I’m enough in the game to reach this level.
There are some definite mental differences between men and women, so while it's not impossible for there to be a pro woman gamer, the mindset required to become a pro gamer might be pretty rare in women.
I don't really believe a girl can't be better than most men in gaming. Look at Tossgirl. Yes, in the scope of the Korean players, she was a B-teamer and was embarrassed by the better players, but in terms of skill, she was better than almost every foreigner and won series against some lower-level progamers in tournaments.
And a lot of players get mad when they lose. That's what happens when you're dedicated to a game and lose. You get frustrated.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: Comparing the inequality in a video game to racial inequality in real life isn't even close to an equal comparison.
True enough. It was more of an attempt at allegory than a statement that they were equal problems.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: SC2, as with ALL video games, is indeed a meritocracy. If you have the skill, you win the games, you get noticed, you get a sponsor (and I'd think a female gamer would actually have an easier time of getting sponsors), and then you go to major events and perform at your best. And, for the record, there is a diamond player in this pool of women, so I guess the meritocracy isn't working as well as I just claimed.
An ideal meritocracy only exists under the condition that everyone 1) starts on an equal footing, and 2) competes in an environment that treats all equally. I would suggest that neither condition is fulfilled for women in SC2. It is far less likely that girls' parents and friends tolerate hours spent playing RTS games, partly because of a general lack of social acceptance for female gamers. The stereotype isn't there to normalize the activity. Then, women who do compete end up harassed and sexualized by a largely male community (a largely horny male community). That, needless to say, can serve to create a hostile environment.
Therefore why such tournaments are such a positive thing. Give role-models and provide a space free of harassment. Encourage more women to power through the B.S. they face being gamers.
Well, based on this thread and the other one about Divina, I'd hardly say this is a harassment free environment
And I hear what you're saying, and that's true when you're talking about something like black people going to college or gay people getting jobs. If you want to talk about women on the whole having a problem being competitive gamers, I don't know if I agree with you that women have a harder time getting away with it from a parents' perspective, especially considering that once a woman leaves home that's no longer an issue, but certainly there is some factor or set of factors that makes it so that fewer women want to play.
But that still doesn't reject the idea that gaming is a meritocracy. For one, you don't have to reveal that you're a woman. Even if you're in the open bracket at an MLG, you're likely not going to get any attention. I mean, we know about Aurora, we know about Flo (who, sadly, left PMS), but I don't believe they're the only two women who have competed in the MLG open bracket this season. Maybe I'm wrong though. But I mean, Divina could only find 12 female SC2 players. Certainly there are way way more then that. And I have seen Megumixbear deal with a whole lot of shit, but it doesn't phase her. To her, it's just a part of being a female gamer, nbd.
I still contend that online gaming is all about skill and that any other factor is irrelevant.
Oh, and the idea that women are somehow emotionally unequipped to deal with losses is absolutely ridiculous. Ask any pro, male or female, they all take losses seriously. They all get pissed. It's not your reaction that matters, it's how you overcome it, and that's a skill that almost anyone can eventually master.
On November 11 2011 12:35 Shel wrote: Well, based on this thread and the other one about Divina, I'd hardly say this is a harassment free environment
I don't have a perfect record myself.
I completely agree that this is in a different league than the other examples you bring up (gay's in the workplace, continued racial discrimination), and I don't want to over inflate the issue. However, I don't think it's a as trivial as you make it. Watching streams, and reading chat and LR threads, one commonly stumbles across sexism. Female players who have gotten good enough to compete in the MLG brackets are sexualized by the community on a regular basis, while those who are unknown, and shielded by the ladder, can still pick up on the vibe from reading forums.
All the known female SC2 players deal with this shit one way or another, and more power to them for doing it. But I think the point here is that having to deal with it significantly shrinks the pool of women who you are going see work hard to integrate into the community. That dealing with it is "part of being a female gamer" is the exactly the problem.
On November 11 2011 12:35 Shel wrote: Oh, and the idea that women are somehow emotionally unequipped to deal with losses is absolutely ridiculous. Ask any pro, male or female, they all take losses seriously. They all get pissed. It's not your reaction that matters, it's how you overcome it, and that's a skill that almost anyone can eventually master.
I hope I didn't write anything that could be read as implying this, as it certainly isn't something I believe.
Code, Peanut said she left for some reason. Did she come back?
And Pugget, it wasn't you that said the thing about women not being able to handle losses. It was actually a quote that someone posted a few pages back from DeSakura. Kind of sad to hear a female gamer bash on her own gender like that, but whatever. It probably has more to do with her culture then with reality.
Kind of off topic, but speaking of culture, does anyone know if women are seen as these emotional nutbags in Asian countries? I think that's a point of view that's rare to hear nowadays in the states, but is that still prevalent in the East?
Pugget, we seem to be arguing different ideas. You're saying it's unfair because most female gamers have too many obstacles to get heavy into SC2. I'm saying that once a woman makes that choice, it's all even. I think we're both right.
Shel, I suppose I can more or less go with what you said in your last post, although the kind stress associated with harassment can build up over time, even after you've made the decision. Hopefully a tourney like this will encourage more women to make that decision.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: Comparing the inequality in a video game to racial inequality in real life isn't even close to an equal comparison.
True enough. It was more of an attempt at allegory than a statement that they were equal problems.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: SC2, as with ALL video games, is indeed a meritocracy. If you have the skill, you win the games, you get noticed, you get a sponsor (and I'd think a female gamer would actually have an easier time of getting sponsors), and then you go to major events and perform at your best. And, for the record, there is a diamond player in this pool of women, so I guess the meritocracy isn't working as well as I just claimed.
An ideal meritocracy only exists under the condition that everyone 1) starts on an equal footing, and 2) completes in an environment that treats all equally. I would suggest that neither condition is fulfilled for women in SC2. It is far less likely that girls' parents and friends tolerate hours spent playing RTS games, partly because of a general lack of social acceptance for female gamers. The stereotype isn't there to normalize the activity. Then, women who do compete end up harassed and sexualized by a largely male community (a largely horny male community). That, needless to say, can serve to create a hostile environment.
Therefore why such tournaments are such a positive thing. Give role-models and provide a space free of harassment. Encourage more women to power through the B.S. they face being gamers.
This post is dumb. First of all, everyone has the same chances of winning in SC2, parenting has nothing to do with that, if your parents don't allow you to play alot then that sucks for you but this goes for boys and girls alike. So that is already a big bullshit excuse. Second of all, women don't usually get harrassed at all, it's the internet nobody knows what sex you are. of course if you use a name like "sexy girl 123" you kind of even deserve it. would people with names like "hot boy 2000" not get harrassed simply for picking a sex-based name?
This tournament is complete nonsense, I'm a mid master player and probably better than half the people attending this tournament but I don't get to play just because I have a penis and they don't? Don't you see how wrong this is? Skill is the only effective measure in SC2, gender is an absolute non factor, being a girl doesn't make it harder for you. This is a general excuse for lazyness, they don't put in as much time and effort as male progamers do but they somehow feel entitled to have a right to play in tournaments for big prize money, they could if they put in the same amount of time and hard work, but they make themselves an easy way, they make their own tournaments and just exclude everyone who is better than them and the reason is that you need to have a vagina. Seriously?
edit: and yes please ban me for having an opinion. >.<
Should be a fun tournament to watch, and a great incentive to normalize female gaming. It will be interesting to see if there are many large skill gaps between the players, and where the best matches will stack up to others at the moment.
- Coming to watch out of curiosity and support - hoping to have enjoyed the games when its over.
Sounds cool, but I doubt that the actual tournament will be worth watching. The only player I recognise is flo and I know she got through a few rounds of the open bracket, but that's it.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: Comparing the inequality in a video game to racial inequality in real life isn't even close to an equal comparison.
True enough. It was more of an attempt at allegory than a statement that they were equal problems.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: SC2, as with ALL video games, is indeed a meritocracy. If you have the skill, you win the games, you get noticed, you get a sponsor (and I'd think a female gamer would actually have an easier time of getting sponsors), and then you go to major events and perform at your best. And, for the record, there is a diamond player in this pool of women, so I guess the meritocracy isn't working as well as I just claimed.
An ideal meritocracy only exists under the condition that everyone 1) starts on an equal footing, and 2) completes in an environment that treats all equally. I would suggest that neither condition is fulfilled for women in SC2. It is far less likely that girls' parents and friends tolerate hours spent playing RTS games, partly because of a general lack of social acceptance for female gamers. The stereotype isn't there to normalize the activity. Then, women who do compete end up harassed and sexualized by a largely male community (a largely horny male community). That, needless to say, can serve to create a hostile environment.
Therefore why such tournaments are such a positive thing. Give role-models and provide a space free of harassment. Encourage more women to power through the B.S. they face being gamers.
This post is dumb. First of all, everyone has the same chances of winning in SC2, parenting has nothing to do with that, if your parents don't allow you to play alot then that sucks for you but this goes for boys and girls alike. So that is already a big bullshit excuse. Second of all, women don't usually get harrassed at all, it's the internet nobody knows what sex you are. of course if you use a name like "sexy girl 123" you kind of even deserve it. would people with names like "hot boy 2000" not get harrassed simply for picking a sex-based name?
This tournament is complete nonsense, I'm a mid master player and probably better than half the people attending this tournament but I don't get to play just because I have a penis and they don't? Don't you see how wrong this is? Skill is the only effective measure in SC2, gender is an absolute non factor, being a girl doesn't make it harder for you. This is a general excuse for lazyness, they don't put in as much time and effort as male progamers do but they somehow feel entitled to have a right to play in tournaments for big prize money, they could if they put in the same amount of time and hard work, but they make themselves an easy way, they make their own tournaments and just exclude everyone who is better than them and the reason is that you need to have a vagina. Seriously?
edit: and yes please ban me for having an opinion. >.<
User was temp banned for this post.
How is "women don't usually get harrassed at all" an opinion? If you knew any woman in esports you wouldn't be saying that. And if they ever want to add any friends on their sc2 account their real name (a female one for a female shockingly) it will get out one way or another no matter what their screen name is.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: Comparing the inequality in a video game to racial inequality in real life isn't even close to an equal comparison.
True enough. It was more of an attempt at allegory than a statement that they were equal problems.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: SC2, as with ALL video games, is indeed a meritocracy. If you have the skill, you win the games, you get noticed, you get a sponsor (and I'd think a female gamer would actually have an easier time of getting sponsors), and then you go to major events and perform at your best. And, for the record, there is a diamond player in this pool of women, so I guess the meritocracy isn't working as well as I just claimed.
An ideal meritocracy only exists under the condition that everyone 1) starts on an equal footing, and 2) completes in an environment that treats all equally. I would suggest that neither condition is fulfilled for women in SC2. It is far less likely that girls' parents and friends tolerate hours spent playing RTS games, partly because of a general lack of social acceptance for female gamers. The stereotype isn't there to normalize the activity. Then, women who do compete end up harassed and sexualized by a largely male community (a largely horny male community). That, needless to say, can serve to create a hostile environment.
Therefore why such tournaments are such a positive thing. Give role-models and provide a space free of harassment. Encourage more women to power through the B.S. they face being gamers.
This post is dumb. First of all, everyone has the same chances of winning in SC2, parenting has nothing to do with that, if your parents don't allow you to play alot then that sucks for you but this goes for boys and girls alike. So that is already a big bullshit excuse. Second of all, women don't usually get harrassed at all, it's the internet nobody knows what sex you are. of course if you use a name like "sexy girl 123" you kind of even deserve it. would people with names like "hot boy 2000" not get harrassed simply for picking a sex-based name?
This tournament is complete nonsense, I'm a mid master player and probably better than half the people attending this tournament but I don't get to play just because I have a penis and they don't? Don't you see how wrong this is? Skill is the only effective measure in SC2, gender is an absolute non factor, being a girl doesn't make it harder for you. This is a general excuse for lazyness, they don't put in as much time and effort as male progamers do but they somehow feel entitled to have a right to play in tournaments for big prize money, they could if they put in the same amount of time and hard work, but they make themselves an easy way, they make their own tournaments and just exclude everyone who is better than them and the reason is that you need to have a vagina. Seriously?
edit: and yes please ban me for having an opinion. >.<
User was temp banned for this post.
You'd probalby still lose to half of them being a mid masters player rofl.
I think it would be a better idea if we get some regular casters. lets be honest the casters are not doing a good job at all, and though this a female tournament, i think they need to stop going for the ' feminine' sort of atmosphere. They are providing some good plays but really, the stream quality and casters must be replaced(imo they are just inexperienced). i hope to see a better tournament then this.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: Comparing the inequality in a video game to racial inequality in real life isn't even close to an equal comparison.
True enough. It was more of an attempt at allegory than a statement that they were equal problems.
On November 11 2011 10:58 Shel wrote: SC2, as with ALL video games, is indeed a meritocracy. If you have the skill, you win the games, you get noticed, you get a sponsor (and I'd think a female gamer would actually have an easier time of getting sponsors), and then you go to major events and perform at your best. And, for the record, there is a diamond player in this pool of women, so I guess the meritocracy isn't working as well as I just claimed.
An ideal meritocracy only exists under the condition that everyone 1) starts on an equal footing, and 2) completes in an environment that treats all equally. I would suggest that neither condition is fulfilled for women in SC2. It is far less likely that girls' parents and friends tolerate hours spent playing RTS games, partly because of a general lack of social acceptance for female gamers. The stereotype isn't there to normalize the activity. Then, women who do compete end up harassed and sexualized by a largely male community (a largely horny male community). That, needless to say, can serve to create a hostile environment.
Therefore why such tournaments are such a positive thing. Give role-models and provide a space free of harassment. Encourage more women to power through the B.S. they face being gamers.
This post is dumb. First of all, everyone has the same chances of winning in SC2, parenting has nothing to do with that, if your parents don't allow you to play alot then that sucks for you but this goes for boys and girls alike. So that is already a big bullshit excuse. Second of all, women don't usually get harrassed at all, it's the internet nobody knows what sex you are. of course if you use a name like "sexy girl 123" you kind of even deserve it. would people with names like "hot boy 2000" not get harrassed simply for picking a sex-based name?
This tournament is complete nonsense, I'm a mid master player and probably better than half the people attending this tournament but I don't get to play just because I have a penis and they don't? Don't you see how wrong this is? Skill is the only effective measure in SC2, gender is an absolute non factor, being a girl doesn't make it harder for you. This is a general excuse for lazyness, they don't put in as much time and effort as male progamers do but they somehow feel entitled to have a right to play in tournaments for big prize money, they could if they put in the same amount of time and hard work, but they make themselves an easy way, they make their own tournaments and just exclude everyone who is better than them and the reason is that you need to have a vagina. Seriously?
edit: and yes please ban me for having an opinion. >.<
User was temp banned for this post.
So you'd even go as far as to completely denying the influence of parents and society to hold on to your simple misogynism. With so little thought put into it I'd hardly call that an opinion. Sounds more like an excuse for being jealous.
gl hf girls! hope this tournament increases awareness of women performing well in esports.. but its so sad to see our ppl in the community giving their "elitist" point of view.. who cares if there diamond... who cares if its only girls ( they do have tournaments for citizens of a country also) at the end of the day its about getting better and having fun whether if ur a guy or a girl anyways. oh ya the stream was laggy even at 360p lol
Chika:: yes the game itself is about gtting better and having fun. But when you throw in 10k and say these are the best 6 girls in the world is when it starts to get shady.
- Definitely need to work on the stream quality, was pretty disappointing. - Need to work on the first day's format. Three games and we didn't get to see all 6 of the competitors? Really? At least there'll be a round robin tomorrow. - Need to include at least one experienced caster. I think it's nice to have KellyMilkies or Livinpink as a commentator, but neither of them really has a lot of experience casting a major event. Between the two girls, there was absolutely no excitement or energy coming through. Grab a good, fun, play-by-play guy like Husky or TotalBiscuit to help round out the casting team (I'd say Artosis, but I have a worry that at some point during the games he'd just blurt out "These two are terrible", which would kinda hurt the event.)
I'd also love to see a larger invite list for that sort of prize pool, but I can understand the costs involved in sending that many people to China.
Trilled to see this tournament, going to watch it and support more females in gaming.
For all its faults the SC2/BW gaming community is so many miles ahead of the FG community it's insane. I remember watching a preview event for UMvC3 last week and there was a girl blowing people up, with casual and blatant sexism abound when people lost to her.
Hope to see Flo win this, she's such a nice person on ladder when we play!
Haven't run into any of the others so can't say much about them... it's a little sad though that SlayerS decided to pick up Eve though, there are a lot of very capable female gamers who are outperforming her, and I bet some of them don't have teams =/
On November 12 2011 02:50 Lazlow wrote: Without having read any of the thread, im guessing as the only non-asian chick, DaSakura is the underdog?
Good luck to her.
I don't think so, I think she is a good contender to go all the way to the finals. She is really impressive and has some great strats planned out. Also, she played well against Colagirl even tho she was really nervous. I'm sure tomorrow she will be more mentally prepared and will perform at very high level. =)
On November 12 2011 02:12 FairForever wrote: Hope to see Flo win this, she's such a nice person on ladder when we play!
Haven't run into any of the others so can't say much about them... it's a little sad though that SlayerS decided to pick up Eve though, there are a lot of very capable female gamers who are outperforming her, and I bet some of them don't have teams =/
On November 12 2011 02:12 FairForever wrote: Hope to see Flo win this, she's such a nice person on ladder when we play!
Haven't run into any of the others so can't say much about them... it's a little sad though that SlayerS decided to pick up Eve though, there are a lot of very capable female gamers who are outperforming her, and I bet some of them don't have teams =/
She wasnt picked up for her skills.
Let's not start this discussion again, at least not in this thread
I don't see the reason why there should be special tournaments for some people who don't practice just because they lottoed the right gender. Just check the ladder history of some of these players, diamond, platinum, unranked, unranked. Some hardly even play SC2.
Gaming is one of the few places where both genders can compete on an even basis, as such there is no reason to give special benefits and prizes to one over the other.
I really don't understand why so many male sc2 players don't want to encourage the wider existence of female sc2 players. This sounds like a great tournament. Yeah, it may be less legitimate than MLG or GSL but the point is to encourage girls to play competitive sc2, not to find the very best player or something. MLG and GSL still exist, this tournament isnt gonna lead to their death any time soon.
I don't see the reason why there should be special tournaments for some people who don't practice just because they lottoed the right gender.
To encourage them to practice?
To promote diversity? To highlight a relatively unseen side of an e-sport? To appeal to a female audience?
God some people are sour. Dear sour people: do you understand why males and females are split for most sports? Physiology right? "Oh but e-sports don't factor into this." Perhaps, but do they really factor into Lawn Bowls? They have a mens and womens team. Are there professional lawn bowls players complaining that if they were born of the opposite gender they'd ezpz own that tournament? No, they've encouraged females into what was once a heavily male dominated sport and now there can even be mixed teams and a mixed (albeit old...which is actually more of an achievement than you'd think) audience.
You'd be surprised how often the sports men watch are dominated by men, and women by women. Netball is largely played by women, and thus a large number of their audience is women. Rugby League by men, largely watched by men. Tennis is mixed, pretty mixed audience.
I lottoed being not very good at starcraft, but there are special tournaments for bronze to gold players. Does that get on anyone's nerve? =D?
Rooting for Flo, but seriously... Master in KR and GM in CN is actually more difficult than people expect. xiaOt and Loner said Colagirl was an unorthodox Zerg (Spanishiwa/Destiny-ish) who has insane mechanics. Watching HuK climb KR Masters (which is like, GM US/EU) also makes aphrodite a good call. Then DaSakura...
D:
Edit: Just remembered who the caster(s) are for this tournament. This isn't a flame but I'll definitely be muting.
Nice preview, but the best part is how the coloration of the post fooled my eyes into seeing pink for the entire content-section background of TL until my eyes adjusted back (the background that is usually bluish that is).
the OP says leajten was a pro wow player, what was her name on that because i dont remember her at all? im trying to research the players for the tourney because i have no idea who any of them are. but all i can find about her is playing in some girl only cs leagues, lvl 80 wow chracters (means she hasnt been active on that for ~1 year) and a platinum level china account. honestly not trying to shit on her but i cant get interested if i have no idea who any of them are beyond a cute face.
ssq from taiwan. the only people called ssq on sc2ranks are all from china, but i thought taiwan played in the korea group? either way the only accounts in china are all almost innactive (~40 games this season) if someone could find some replays of her id love to watch them. i used to be in to the halo scene, especially during halo2, was that when she played and what is her name on halo?
the rest of the players arent proclaimed to have huge ESPORTS pasts but it would be nice to get an idea of the quality of their play.
the SsQRush acc on CN server is new. I think its given to her for the tournement. so she played around 42 games in this short period of time and is in the Master league.
On November 12 2011 09:09 turdburgler wrote: the OP says leajten was a pro wow player, what was her name on that because i dont remember her at all? im trying to research the players for the tourney because i have no idea who any of them are. but all i can find about her is playing in some girl only cs leagues, lvl 80 wow chracters (means she hasnt been active on that for ~1 year) and a platinum level china account. honestly not trying to shit on her but i cant get interested if i have no idea who any of them are beyond a cute face.
ssq from taiwan. the only people called ssq on sc2ranks are all from china, but i thought taiwan played in the korea group? either way the only accounts in china are all almost innactive (~40 games this season) if someone could find some replays of her id love to watch them. i used to be in to the halo scene, especially during halo2, was that when she played and what is her name on halo?
the rest of the players arent proclaimed to have huge ESPORTS pasts but it would be nice to get an idea of the quality of their play.
colagirl was a low-tier war3 pro.. think haypro or incontrol in sc2
Fixed the stream with the producers today!! China internet is a bit unstable but we manage to set it up properly! 15 sets of game today. Hope you guys are ready :D:D
On November 12 2011 15:18 kellymilkies wrote: Fixed the stream with the producers today!! China internet is a bit unstable but we manage to set it up properly! 15 sets of game today. Hope you guys are ready :D:D
I AM SO READY!! Glad the connection will be better today. Really looking forward to how this tournament plays out. I was hoping to see more of the players today but then again I felt like it was just like the GSL WC where most of the players didn't want to give any of their real builds/skill away before the tournament that matters.
On November 12 2011 08:33 jyuj wrote: I guess the secret to being a pro-girl gamer is having a hoodie, cause they all do, and it must be white or black
LOL wow I went back and checked. You're right haha. Grrrl gamers are cold!
On November 12 2011 08:33 jyuj wrote: I guess the secret to being a pro-girl gamer is having a hoodie, cause they all do, and it must be white or black
LOL wow I went back and checked. You're right haha. Grrrl gamers are cold!
I didn't watch the games, but aren't they all just wearing the hoodies zowie gave them that I saw in the promo pics?
On November 13 2011 00:44 Maker wrote: prizes are ridicusly high, but maybe it will make all girls to want become the best players to win tournaments like this
it would, but they need a qualifier or take girls that get out and compete and go to events, i know girls that go to events like IPL 3 that would crush the foreign players invited guaranteed lol. (no idea how good the korean and chinese are)
To whoever said they were all GM/Masters, they're not. One of them is Diamond. And saying a girl is masters, or anyone is masters, isn't saying a lot because there's a wide variance in skill throughout the masters division. And Kifire, one of these girls is Korean GM, so she'll probably win. Another one is Korean masters. I don't know about the rest of the Asian competitors.
On November 13 2011 11:08 Shel wrote: To whoever said they were all GM/Masters, they're not. One of them is Diamond. And saying a girl is masters, or anyone is masters, isn't saying a lot because there's a wide variance in skill throughout the masters division. And Kifire, one of these girls is Korean GM, so she'll probably win. Another one is Korean masters. I don't know about the rest of the Asian competitors.
I thought only Colagirl who tore through the competition was the only GM based on the invitation thread. The rest were Masters with the Swedish girl being in diamond.
Nice to see some female players in the eSport! :-) I played against Laejten in ladder, I remember this name but i never knew that my opponent was a lady
On November 13 2011 18:47 SeLpHy wrote: Nice to see some female players in the eSport! :-) I played against Laejten in ladder, I remember this name but i never knew that my opponent was a lady
Everyone asks about SlayersEve, but i'm curious about why luwayStorm isn't the rep from Taiwan. You guys should go check her out - she beat the likes of julyzerg (when he went down to Taiwan for TeSL) etc.