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On November 30 2011 13:50 pure_protoss wrote:you guyz want a hard counter? why arent they changing the ''storm'' ability to give them a snare effect on all light air units! Would be gimmicky and wierd but it would work without changeing the entire game...the only thing that it would change else is a giving a good way to protoss to counter mass phoenix in pvp  beside that...I dont see any reason not to do it! and it would not be op since HT's are so slow compared to mutas (its like fungal growth vs phoenix )
and it would destroy PvT...
HT zealot archon. wohoo...
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2011 17:15 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 16:40 Huckle wrote:On November 30 2011 14:28 Mordoc wrote:On November 11 2011 02:44 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:
[quote]
Strongly disagree with this statement.
Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. Wrong on all counts. 1.) sufficiently large numbers of mutas beat even count stalkers w/o sentry support (and sentries are too slow to matter) 2.) defending vs. muta means nothing - because zerg is expanding and droning behind it. 3.) if you walk out to try and kill zerg you're hitting a spine wall. You clearly have no clue what youre talking about, sorry. 1) Sure, but that happens for ALL air units against ground units w/o aoe. For mutas, you need about 90 (I have tested personally on unit testers), before mutas start to beat stalkers for cost. 2) defending against muta means you aren't losing anything, while he is investing in very poor combat units, while also losing SUPER valuable mutas (2-3 when you go in to a base from an archon hit, a few Blink stalker shots, a lot of cannon shots/etc), to kill relatively cheap units (you might kill a 2 100 mineral pylons and a single cannon for that). 3) How many spines can a Zerg realistically have? Why can't you get blink (which is great against mutas anyway) and just go around (possible on the majority of maps) the spines? If the Zerg is investing all of his gas on mutas, and all of his mutas on spines, expanding, drones, queens, and Zerglings, he won't have much (a small pack of zerglings and a similarly counted pack of mutas), to your large, well upgraded, very mobile, and very scary stalker group, that can fairly easily go in, snipe some tech, drones, etc, and get out with your army. The whole point is that muta play allows the Zerg player to expand at will and then transition into a more stable broodlord infestor build which literally destroys anything a protoss can realistically build on 2-3 bases. Mutas are decent in combat as well. Watch any pro match....once mutas get to about 25+ they are much better than stalkers in equal numbers. It doesn't matter if they beat them for cost because Zerg will have more bases, drones, and resources so that they can afford the critical mass of mutas - hence the cost-efficiency is irrelevant. On two bases? Surely you're joking. If a protoss is on two bases at the time of a maxed out infestor-brood lord army arrives it is not the compositions fault. The protoss player lost the game long ago.
I have nothing but disdain for most of these posts. Shame on you all for blaming your troubles on a units balance. Both races have extremely viable and well known options to counter mutalisks and while it is understandable that it is a difficult strategy to counter; it is more outrageous to call into question the balance of mutalisks. My god, let's make zerglings 2 supply and remove fungal growth from the game while we're at it! I apologize if this offends you but I need to say it. If you were on Slayers you would not post in a thread complaining about the difficulty. You would strive to beat it! If you were any of the Protoss that have won over mutalisks or even lost- you would not tell others that it is imbalanced! You would work harder to rectify mistakes and improve to new levels! Don't post and ask for hand outs- be a better gamer and learn to love your templar, your archon, your blink stalker, your phoenix. There is no zerg composition or unit that does not have a counter strategy and once you accept this you can move on to practicing against it! How do you think mutalisks became popular? Ingenious zergs decided enough was enough and innovated. The ball is in your court now!
Mutas were always popular units vs. protoss, it just took them a while to figure out that you can open roaches and make mutas off 3 bases after making sure you aren't going to get 6 gated. Back before 6 gates were common, mutas dominated the matchup: protoss basically had to go 6 gate to stop mutas from coming out off two bases, or else the toss was pretty much dead. Mutas only stopped because the threat of a 6 gate at that specific timing was enough to kill the 2 base muta strat, but it's nearly impossible to kill a zerg on fast 3 bases off of a FFE, and 3 gate sentry is expand is worse due to the warp gate timing nerf, so you're behind in econ with that build.
The problem isn't that toss can't beat mutas, it's that it takes so long to get to a situation where the mutas can be beaten safely without absurd amounts of losses in exchange that zerg has the entire map and doesn't care about the mutas anymore, and will simply sacrifice them and remax on the exact units they need to crush your army. It wouldn't be too bad if stalkers actually did damage like marines do, but their DPS is terrible and they're very expensive. You can't even really engage the muta ball with just stalkers unless your stalker count is very very high and you have better upgrades, wheras 10 marines can actually do significant damage to 20 mutas with stim. It's not even easy for terran either, but they have better options.
The problem is quite simple: this one unit defines the matchup, and it always has, even when it wasn't obvious. It's always a question of: can zerg get mutas out safely? If yes, zerg is in an excellent position. He can still lose, but if he controls right, he'll secure a huge macro advantage. Protoss in the past threatens timings and attacks to prevent zerg from making mutas, since making mutas requires a lot of time and stockpiling of some resources, which is risky when you might die. But if zerg feels safe, which they all mostly do now due to the warp gate nerf making one base protoss a lot weaker and making the sentry expand later, they have no trouble straight up owning.
If storm wasn't so bloody easy to dodge, or if archon splash radius were larger so they couldn't be magic boxed and completely owned this wouldn't be so hard. Luckily, blizzard realizes the problem and has added the tempest, which is sufficiently high tech to allow mutas to be useful for at least a while before they're available, but will stop mass mutas from being worthwhile.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2011 17:28 Capiachi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 13:50 pure_protoss wrote:you guyz want a hard counter? why arent they changing the ''storm'' ability to give them a snare effect on all light air units! Would be gimmicky and wierd but it would work without changeing the entire game...the only thing that it would change else is a giving a good way to protoss to counter mass phoenix in pvp beside that...I dont see any reason not to do it! and it would not be op since HT's are so slow compared to mutas (its like fungal growth vs phoenix ) and it would destroy PvT... HT zealot archon. wohoo...
For the record, he said 'light air units' which encompasses only pheonix, mutalisks, and banshees, so not really. That said, it's a terrible idea and doesn't make any sense.
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You know Blizzard has a long and colored history when it comes to game balance -_-; I wouldn't cite them unless I was saying something blatant like "Remember when roaches were 1 supply? Lol did.. they even play the game?"
I didn't forget what Sen used to do with muta/ling. I also haven't forgotten how many times it embarrassingly failed when he met against equally micro skilled opponents and his mutalisks were torn to shreds by the same blink stalkers and storms that you write off. All with more expensive upgrades and a less fundamentally understood game!
I understand it's frustrating and accept that you bring up valid points on the difficulty of dealing with mutalisk. If it wasn't a hard strategy to deal with we wouldn't be talking in such a long.. and whiny.. thread. But I am confident that the key is in stronger upgrades and micromanagement. If not then how do Protoss players ever manage to win against Zerg and why does Zerg not use this every single time? When it became clear just how strong hellions were.. everyone used hellions. To not use hellions (or for that matter- bunker rush) was beating yourself. This is clearly not the case with mutalisks. ZvP still involves a variety of compositions and only some of them involve super deep muta investment during the mid game.
Once this becomes 100% standard saw it coming then I will accept that you are 100% correct but until then I will remain confident that this is a moment where the Protoss strategy must evolve to face a new challenge instead of complain and ask for a nerf.
edit: making a case for one base play in a professional level (I think that's what we're arguing, since they can't be anything but one in the same game as we play?) is sad. If WoL regressed to this time last year I'd stop watching until the stone age ended again.
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as a protoss player, if i see early mutas i just go kill the zerg and win (i frequently open pheonix anyway which discourages it), if its a late game switch i tend to have HTs and just storm them (i prefer them to collosus which imo are a bit clumsy, that and they're more involving to use)
1 decent storm on the mutas and they cant engage you because a single tick from another storm would put them in the red and your stalkers would roast them
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tsango is my argument. I'm not saying mutalisks are weak or even average units. I'm saying that they necessitate a direct and strong response. If Terran were to mech and walk all the way across the map unharried (Fuck you chrome it counts in scrabble and it was good enough for Charles Dickens. Unharried is a word.) then you've just lost the game no matter how brilliantly you engage. You're trapped and cannot reinforce except in one in a hundred chances.
Letting Zerg run up to 30 mutalisks is kinda like that. You have choices. Opening mutas leaves you open to a direct attack before numbers become sufficient to wreck buildings.
EDIT: I hope I didn't cross any lines with these posts. I am empathetic to how it feels. I understand its bullshit infuriating hard. I just simply don't accept it's unstoppable. I think it requires a new outlook on what is required to beat Zerg and I've offered what personally stops me and what I've deduced stops pro zergs on streams and in tournaments.
If I've (well, if I can be proven) to be talking out of my ass then I will apologize and admit that I was incorrect.
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Mutas are (and it's not whine) absolutely overpowered in >15 numbers. In ZvP and ZvT as well.
It just holds you in your base while zerg expanding madly.
But actually giving a special unit to counter it is not a good idea at all.
Instead, and it's blatantly obvious, muta speed and acceleration speed just need to be nerfed. Thor nowadays can make just one (one!!!) shot before muta just fly away... Is it normal? No.
Muta does not good in a straight engage, but it just forces you to sit at your base, not expending while zerg does, and you can do nothing as P and as T as well.
Only speed nerf can solve this overpowernes (yes)
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Oh fuck this I'm not rehashing the same argument that's been laid out 50 times on 77 pages. You're talking like one unit is supposed to counter another unit and that's how the game is played. It's not, that's wrong and please flip to any random page in this thread to see compelling reasons why mutalisks are just fine in TvZ.
Edit: I'm done. If someone replies to me and specifically requests I say something or sends me a PM I'll respond but it only took 15 minutes to suck the life right out of me after reading this.
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United States27 Posts
On December 01 2011 17:15 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 16:40 Huckle wrote:On November 30 2011 14:28 Mordoc wrote:On November 11 2011 02:44 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:
[quote]
Strongly disagree with this statement.
Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. Wrong on all counts. 1.) sufficiently large numbers of mutas beat even count stalkers w/o sentry support (and sentries are too slow to matter) 2.) defending vs. muta means nothing - because zerg is expanding and droning behind it. 3.) if you walk out to try and kill zerg you're hitting a spine wall. You clearly have no clue what youre talking about, sorry. 1) Sure, but that happens for ALL air units against ground units w/o aoe. For mutas, you need about 90 (I have tested personally on unit testers), before mutas start to beat stalkers for cost. 2) defending against muta means you aren't losing anything, while he is investing in very poor combat units, while also losing SUPER valuable mutas (2-3 when you go in to a base from an archon hit, a few Blink stalker shots, a lot of cannon shots/etc), to kill relatively cheap units (you might kill a 2 100 mineral pylons and a single cannon for that). 3) How many spines can a Zerg realistically have? Why can't you get blink (which is great against mutas anyway) and just go around (possible on the majority of maps) the spines? If the Zerg is investing all of his gas on mutas, and all of his mutas on spines, expanding, drones, queens, and Zerglings, he won't have much (a small pack of zerglings and a similarly counted pack of mutas), to your large, well upgraded, very mobile, and very scary stalker group, that can fairly easily go in, snipe some tech, drones, etc, and get out with your army. The whole point is that muta play allows the Zerg player to expand at will and then transition into a more stable broodlord infestor build which literally destroys anything a protoss can realistically build on 2-3 bases. Mutas are decent in combat as well. Watch any pro match....once mutas get to about 25+ they are much better than stalkers in equal numbers. It doesn't matter if they beat them for cost because Zerg will have more bases, drones, and resources so that they can afford the critical mass of mutas - hence the cost-efficiency is irrelevant. On two bases? Surely you're joking. If a protoss is on two bases at the time of a maxed out infestor-brood lord army arrives it is not the compositions fault. The protoss player lost the game long ago.
I have nothing but disdain for most of these posts. Shame on you all for blaming your troubles on a units balance. Both races have extremely viable and well known options to counter mutalisks and while it is understandable that it is a difficult strategy to counter; it is more outrageous to call into question the balance of mutalisks. My god, let's make zerglings 2 supply and remove fungal growth from the game while we're at it! I apologize if this offends you but I need to say it. If you were on Slayers you would not post in a thread complaining about the difficulty. You would strive to beat it! If you were any of the Protoss that have won over mutalisks or even lost- you would not tell others that it is imbalanced! You would work harder to rectify mistakes and improve to new levels! Don't post and ask for hand outs- be a better gamer and learn to love your templar, your archon, your blink stalker, your phoenix. There is no zerg composition or unit that does not have a counter strategy and once you accept this you can move on to practicing against it! How do you think mutalisks became popular? Ingenious zergs decided enough was enough and innovated. The ball is in your court now!
My bad, I should have said 2-3 mining bases.
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On December 01 2011 18:04 Probe1 wrote:
Oh fuck this I'm not rehashing the same argument that's been laid out 50 times on 77 pages. You're talking like one unit is supposed to counter another unit and that's how the game is played. It's not, that's wrong and please flip to any random page in this thread to see compelling reasons why mutalisks are just fine in TvZ.
Edit: I'm done. If someone replies to me and specifically requests I say something or sends me a PM I'll respond but it only took 15 minutes to suck the life right out of me after reading this.
I have been argueing so much in this thread... Point is that people won't stop whining about something as long as there are some that can't deal with it. I guess it's understandable, but thankfully this phase lies in my past.
Gone are the times in which I blamed colossi and Forcefields for losses instead of stupid decisions to build hydralisks and not open 3hatch because I wanted to be safe. Gone are the times in which 4gate and 6gate rushes seemed like transitionable builds. Yes... maybe some units in the game are imbalanced if you compare them to other units (marines, tanks, ghosts, stalkers, colossi, mutalisks, infestors), but as long as good players show time and time again that it is possible to beat compositions inculding those, I'm not gonna whine about them again and wait until there is real imbalance proven. (long term tests, statistics)
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Someone can explain me why the magicbox still viable?
Two units replaced, for a tard-skill like magicbox? Its not something difficult to do, even a bronze can do a good magicbox.
Archons and Thors can actually counter mutas if the magicbox isnt allowed.
Carriers can be patched, thors too... i dont understand at all.
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On December 01 2011 19:27 InVerno wrote:
Someone can explain me why the magicbox still viable?
Two units replaced, for a tard-skill like magicbox? Its not something difficult to do, even a bronze can do a good magicbox.
Archons and Thors can actually counter mutas if the magicbox isnt allowed.
Carriers can be patched, thors too... i dont understand at all.
because it prevents mutalisks from being terribly underpowered.
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On December 01 2011 19:27 InVerno wrote:
Someone can explain me why the magicbox still viable?
Two units replaced, for a tard-skill like magicbox? Its not something difficult to do, even a bronze can do a good magicbox.
Archons and Thors can actually counter mutas if the magicbox isnt allowed.
Carriers can be patched, thors too... i dont understand at all.
It is not possible to reasonably patch the magic box out.
Think about what it depends on:
1) auto-spread of air units when they have no commands. If you removed this, you would have perma-stacked air. This would obviously not be good: you would then be able to fight mutas more effectively with splash, but any form of non-splash reply would have to be abandoned. Among other things, that is.
2) mutalisks going to the point to where they're ordered to go (read: units following your orders). Literally. The reason why the fly "in formation" is that if you give them an order to go sufficiently far, their trajectories are almost parallel. The only way to "correct" this would be to make units not obey the commands they're given. This would be beyond stupid.
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Splash range buff (+50%?) on Thors and Archons could help against OP magic box.
On top of that instead of replacing carrier, carriers should get two buffs:
- Interceptors damage changed to 10x1 (from 5x2) WITH 1.5 RANGE SPLASH (against A and G)
- Interceptors shields regeneration buff to ~20/s
IMO it will be both more useful and more interesting unit then entire TEMPEST concept...
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As a zerg player, I do admit sometimes I feel that mutalisk tech switch is a bit too strong.
Consider this situation that has happened to me countless times ZvP
Protoss just took a third, and has camped his army near the third to prevent ling harass and such.
Zerg (me) opts for a ling(or roach) drop in protoss's main simultaneously building a spire and inject.
Protoss has to pick one of two options:
1. go counter attack, because zerg just committed heavily to a doomdrop
2. go clean out the mess that's in the protoss main.
Now if protoss goes all the way to the main, it leaves his third exposed to lings or even bling drops.
At best he would clean out the lings/roaches while taking significant losses to his tech and production lines (including pylon count)
So most people opt to go counter attack... and this is where it gets fuzzy.
As the supply for lings drops, they are immediately replaced by mutalisks--->up to 20-30 mutalisks because ling/roaches are so cheap, zerg maxed out early while banking heavily.
Rally the mutalisks to somewhere safe, rally extralings long with mutalisks and forces protoss to base trade.
PROTOSS CANNOT WIN BASE TRADES WITH MUTAKLISKS OUT!
The longer protoss takes to kill the spire, the more mutalisks accumulate.
Knowing this, if I have enough money, I would make a second spire elsewhere to keep muta production up.
Eventually the protoss would lose the base trade and zerg would win...
That's been my ZvP for the last 3 weeks.
Kinda depressing.
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On December 01 2011 18:13 Scrubwave wrote:
Thors are generally poor, slow movement, slow fire rate, too large, costly. If you want a thor to be effective against mutas, you need to have marines with him. But if that's the case, why not skip the thor and make marines instead?
I'm still convinced that marines are the only good AA terran has right now.
There's a synergy between thors and marines, or a couple turrets. Mutas don't evaporate vs thors when magic-boxed, but to snipe a tank, turret, reactor, etc when marines/turrets are nearby, it's much better to keep them all in a tight ball.
Basically, the combination of thor+marines/turrets is much better vs many mutalisks than either alone.
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I hope this unit wont be in final, otherwise P can just camp at two bases, make 10x coloss, 10x tempest and A-move to zergs base...
Well, its not so hot, but this amount of splash will in larger unit counts make protoss deathball even more deadly and zerg will be unable to kill it without ultra, his army will vaporize just in seconds.. (especially with storms)... :-/
May be the new Ultralisk could be answer for ZvP then, finally as scary as it used to be back in SCBW.
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Slow, relatively short-ranged unit cannot counter mutas, even if you give ithuge splash and good damage. Mutas can be countered by either combination of splash and fast (equal to mutas) movement speed or combination of HUGE splash and very long attack range (9+). Neither toss nor terran has such unit, thats why Mutas are OP, and thats why Mutas will be still OP in HotS.
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I'm surprised that this thread is as long as it is. Aren't templars an appropriate 'counter'? Mutalisks are strong if one is caught off guard, but then again, most things should be. I feel like with the appropriate scouting and preparation, mutalisks can be rendered pretty ineffective.
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EPT
