EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 76
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On November 14 2011 18:07 Elefanto wrote: I would love if they would reintroduce Muta micro. Limit the number of Mutalisk you can automatically select to 12, but let them be able to stack. It's possible, someone made a map where you could stack Muta, but only 12 of them. If you would want to go mass Mutas, you would need multiple control groups, thus making fast, swift movements impossible. Also good control would benefit better players. It would make the whole experience so much better. Also they could scrap their Muta counter units in Hots. Or just make Mutas stronger, but make their hard counters harder. It means a handful of Mutas early on can do a lot of damage, but then once the hard counters come out the Mutas get wrecked and the Zerg has to transition. | ||
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Cillas
Germany78 Posts
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
~Juanald | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:45 Juanald wrote: i defanitely think blizzard is acknoledging theres no way as protoss to deal with mutas when they get 15+ in the late game with up grades but at the same time terran has too many ways to deal with mass muta. i think blizzard is recognizing how 1 thor can instantly take out 15+ mutas so they wanted to tone them down a bit and give protoss a unit that can compete with mutas. ~Juanald I wouldn't say there is "no way" for protoss to deal with mutas. Stalker HT w storms works, but I think everyone knows it's far from ideal. Huk vs nestea and leenock clearly showed just how hard it is for a protoss in that position. I think everyone acknowledges that pheonix vs muta is broken badly however. | ||
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Huckle
United States27 Posts
The point here is that the current protoss style is quite terrible against zerg at the moment. New plays are going to have to be adapted - perhaps FFE-->stargate will be the new PvZ opener? A cannon plus a few voidrays to hold off most roach ling all-ins followed by heavy phoenix with an emphasis on denying the zerg third would be quite horrific to deal with from the zergs point of view. Once you limit the zerg to two bases a quick transition into colossus or even templar would be great to stop both hydra and infestor builds - while sustaining phoenix production of course to discourage muta play. If you can stop muta play and force either hydras or infestors you're in a much better position to win the game. Of course there is always the threat of corruptors to destroy both phoenix and colossus.....but I'll take my chance against them rather than mutas. | ||
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pure_protoss
152 Posts
 beside that...I dont see any reason not to do it! and it would not be op since HT's are so slow compared to mutas (its like fungal growth vs phoenix ) | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:43 Huckle wrote: The worst thing about heavy mutalisk play is that it forces the standard protoss to do a 2-base timing attack lest they get contained and then macro stomped by a gazillion base zerg. Who knows what to do if they mass spine crawlers at the natural. Perhaps you just pull back, cannon appropriately and hope you can get blink then storm and a third base. Once you get storm you're safe. You position a templar at each base and hooray....no more harass. But then you realize he has a transition into brood lord and infestor and you die miserably. The point here is that the current protoss style is quite terrible against zerg at the moment. New plays are going to have to be adapted - perhaps FFE-->stargate will be the new PvZ opener? A cannon plus a few voidrays to hold off most roach ling all-ins followed by heavy phoenix with an emphasis on denying the zerg third would be quite horrific to deal with from the zergs point of view. Once you limit the zerg to two bases a quick transition into colossus or even templar would be great to stop both hydra and infestor builds - while sustaining phoenix production of course to discourage muta play. If you can stop muta play and force either hydras or infestors you're in a much better position to win the game. Of course there is always the threat of corruptors to destroy both phoenix and colossus.....but I'll take my chance against them rather than mutas. This exactly. Pheonix are terrible against muta. on the face of it they are good, but it gives zerg a choice to either keep massing the cheaper and more useful muta and eventually overwhelm the pheonix or switch tech to infestor and fungal the pheonix that the protoss player has invested so much in. I think it was incontrol on last STOG who said naniwa was doing exactly the right thing to scout for that spire and then attack hard before it completes. Once the mutas are up you're in big trouble, but just before they arrive zerg is vulnerable to a big push. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:57 Kharnage wrote: This exactly. Pheonix are terrible against muta. on the face of it they are good, but it gives zerg a choice to either keep massing the cheaper and more useful muta and eventually overwhelm the pheonix or switch tech to infestor and fungal the pheonix that the protoss player has invested so much in. I think it was incontrol on last STOG who said naniwa was doing exactly the right thing to scout for that spire and then attack hard before it completes. Once the mutas are up you're in big trouble, but just before they arrive zerg is vulnerable to a big push. IMO the Tempest is boring. Should bring back.... the Corsair! Keep the Phoenix. I want to see air play with Phoenix + Corsair. Corsair could have disruption web back and an ability similar to optic flare (from medic) that blinds units (renders their vision to 1) and removes detection. Would go well with DTs and also would be a more fun unit than from what seems to be the a-move Tempests. (Seriously though, the Tempest is kind of boring >.>.) | ||
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Mordoc
United States162 Posts
On November 11 2011 02:44 willyallthewei wrote: Wrong on all counts. 1.) sufficiently large numbers of mutas beat even count stalkers w/o sentry support (and sentries are too slow to matter) 2.) defending vs. muta means nothing - because zerg is expanding and droning behind it. 3.) if you walk out to try and kill zerg you're hitting a spine wall. You clearly have no clue what youre talking about, sorry. 1) Sure, but that happens for ALL air units against ground units w/o aoe. For mutas, you need about 90 (I have tested personally on unit testers), before mutas start to beat stalkers for cost. 2) defending against muta means you aren't losing anything, while he is investing in very poor combat units, while also losing SUPER valuable mutas (2-3 when you go in to a base from an archon hit, a few Blink stalker shots, a lot of cannon shots/etc), to kill relatively cheap units (you might kill a 2 100 mineral pylons and a single cannon for that). 3) How many spines can a Zerg realistically have? Why can't you get blink (which is great against mutas anyway) and just go around (possible on the majority of maps) the spines? If the Zerg is investing all of his gas on mutas, and all of his mutas on spines, expanding, drones, queens, and Zerglings, he won't have much (a small pack of zerglings and a similarly counted pack of mutas), to your large, well upgraded, very mobile, and very scary stalker group, that can fairly easily go in, snipe some tech, drones, etc, and get out with your army. | ||
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Huckle
United States27 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:28 Mordoc wrote: 1) Sure, but that happens for ALL air units against ground units w/o aoe. For mutas, you need about 90 (I have tested personally on unit testers), before mutas start to beat stalkers for cost. 2) defending against muta means you aren't losing anything, while he is investing in very poor combat units, while also losing SUPER valuable mutas (2-3 when you go in to a base from an archon hit, a few Blink stalker shots, a lot of cannon shots/etc), to kill relatively cheap units (you might kill a 2 100 mineral pylons and a single cannon for that). 3) How many spines can a Zerg realistically have? Why can't you get blink (which is great against mutas anyway) and just go around (possible on the majority of maps) the spines? If the Zerg is investing all of his gas on mutas, and all of his mutas on spines, expanding, drones, queens, and Zerglings, he won't have much (a small pack of zerglings and a similarly counted pack of mutas), to your large, well upgraded, very mobile, and very scary stalker group, that can fairly easily go in, snipe some tech, drones, etc, and get out with your army. The whole point is that muta play allows the Zerg player to expand at will and then transition into a more stable broodlord infestor build which literally destroys anything a protoss can realistically build on 2-3 bases. Mutas are decent in combat as well. Watch any pro match....once mutas get to about 25+ they are much better than stalkers in equal numbers. It doesn't matter if they beat them for cost because Zerg will have more bases, drones, and resources so that they can afford the critical mass of mutas - hence the cost-efficiency is irrelevant. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:50 pure_protoss wrote: you guyz want a hard counter? why arent they changing the ''storm'' ability to give them a snare effect on all light air units! Would be gimmicky and wierd but it would work without changeing the entire game...the only thing that it would change else is a giving a good way to protoss to counter mass phoenix in pvp beside that...I dont see any reason not to do it! and it would not be op since HT's are so slow compared to mutas (its like fungal growth vs phoenix )No, homogeneity is bad. If you're gonna give them fungal you might as well give infestors feedback and the ability to turn into some sort of super infestor, because infested terrans is only mildly useful in harass and some other situations and neurals been broken (for better or worse) since this game has been started. | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
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robopork
United States511 Posts
I don't like the tempest that much- mass mutalisks is strong, but it has its weaknesses, and extremely 1 dimensional hard counters are my least favorite part of this game, I really don't want more of them. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On December 01 2011 16:40 Huckle wrote: The whole point is that muta play allows the Zerg player to expand at will and then transition into a more stable broodlord infestor build which literally destroys anything a protoss can realistically build on 2-3 bases. Mutas are decent in combat as well. Watch any pro match....once mutas get to about 25+ they are much better than stalkers in equal numbers. It doesn't matter if they beat them for cost because Zerg will have more bases, drones, and resources so that they can afford the critical mass of mutas - hence the cost-efficiency is irrelevant. On two bases? Surely you're joking. If a protoss is on two bases at the time of a maxed out infestor-brood lord army arrives it is not the compositions fault. The protoss player lost the game long ago. I have nothing but disdain for most of these posts. Shame on you all for blaming your troubles on a units balance. Both races have extremely viable and well known options to counter mutalisks and while it is understandable that it is a difficult strategy to counter; it is more outrageous to call into question the balance of mutalisks. My god, let's make zerglings 2 supply and remove fungal growth from the game while we're at it! I apologize if this offends you but I need to say it. If you were on Slayers you would not post in a thread complaining about the difficulty. You would strive to beat it! If you were any of the Protoss that have won over mutalisks or even lost- you would not tell others that it is imbalanced! You would work harder to rectify mistakes and improve to new levels! Don't post and ask for hand outs- be a better gamer and learn to love your templar, your archon, your blink stalker, your phoenix. There is no zerg composition or unit that does not have a counter strategy and once you accept this you can move on to practicing against it! How do you think mutalisks became popular? Ingenious zergs decided enough was enough and innovated. The ball is in your court now! | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
And for T, fights go like this: trade your marine tank against their mass ling, 20 mutas still alive. You really don't need more than a handful of banes. It's only when the ling count is so low that tons of marines are left, that the mutas are forced to die. In BW, firebats basically make it so that bio crushes ling so fast that mutas will be forced to fight. Unfortunately, in SC2, hellions actually lose in a straight fight to lings without kiting. Battlehellion and shredder will really change this part of the matchup - the more efficiently and quicker the lings die, the vulnerable the mutas to bio. On the other hand, I don't think warhound will be a very good counter, especially if it has lower range, and retains the same AOE mechanic. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
They may be necessary, but they are about as good as the hydralisk. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:43 Huckle wrote: The worst thing about heavy mutalisk play is that it forces the standard protoss to do a 2-base timing attack lest they get contained and then macro stomped by a gazillion base zerg. Who knows what to do if they mass spine crawlers at the natural. Perhaps you just pull back, cannon appropriately and hope you can get blink then storm and a third base. Once you get storm you're safe. You position a templar at each base and hooray....no more harass. But then you realize he has a transition into brood lord and infestor and you die miserably. The point here is that the current protoss style is quite terrible against zerg at the moment. New plays are going to have to be adapted - perhaps FFE-->stargate will be the new PvZ opener? A cannon plus a few voidrays to hold off most roach ling all-ins followed by heavy phoenix with an emphasis on denying the zerg third would be quite horrific to deal with from the zergs point of view. Once you limit the zerg to two bases a quick transition into colossus or even templar would be great to stop both hydra and infestor builds - while sustaining phoenix production of course to discourage muta play. If you can stop muta play and force either hydras or infestors you're in a much better position to win the game. Of course there is always the threat of corruptors to destroy both phoenix and colossus.....but I'll take my chance against them rather than mutas. One high templar with 6 cannons at each base does not make you safe to mutas, it just makes it riskier for them to harass. But if they've got 30 mutas, they can fly in, kill your HT after dodging a storm, and then just kill your buildings. Terran has an easier time of it, since missile turrets are quite a bit better vs. mutas than cannons are, and they have building armor + hi-sec auto-tracking available to them to make muta management a bit easier, but even they have a hell of a time dealing with 30 mutas when they try to push out. You shouldn't be able to mass a harass unit to the extent where it kills buildings, workers, and even a great deal of combat units very quickly and still have it be somewhat useful in a straight up fight in conjunction with a very cheap unit like zerglings. | ||
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