|
On November 13 2011 04:48 Feidspar wrote:
I remain of the opinion that zerg has nothing to stop early void rays. Go double stargate into 3-4 void rays, and the rest can be phoenixes. Or just keep pumping void rays because, honestly, they're great against everything.
I want to see a replay of a zerg shutting down fast 2 stargate void ray play.
I can't remember the exact game, but there was a check game on bel'shir beach in the last 3 or so months (a gomtv tournament) that had him vs a toss who opened ffe into double stargate void. I remember watching and thinking it would be a brutal strategy and then check holding it comfortably.
Edit: I'll look for it
More Edits: :-P It was bel'shir beach not winter, and the toss spawned at the bottom position. It was memorable because at one stage queens were attacking over half way across the map.
|
On November 13 2011 05:01 Feidspar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 04:59 Chaosvuistje wrote:On November 13 2011 04:48 Feidspar wrote:I want to see a replay of a zerg shutting down fast 2 stargate void ray play. Please stop... Spore crawlers halt Voidrays down enough so that they can't do critical economic damage. Once you have assessed that the protoss does nothing but build Voidrays for quite some time, a Hydra push will CRUSH it utterly. Void rays don't need to fidget. 4 void rays melt spores like they're nothing. Again, show me a replay.
Well its kinda hard to find a replay of a strategy that is so bad that noone is doing it? Why don't you show us a replay where you think early voidrays are op.
|
All the arguments I've read so far are "When the zerg player has 40 mutalisks, protoss is screwed." Well wtf have you been doing so that the zerg has been able to get 40 mutalisks?! Jesus.
|
For me, it's really hard to deal with mutalisk (Gold level) but as there are ways to defend is (which i dont employ properly) I don't think its overpowered
It's overpowering me, though so IM.Happy :D
|
On November 13 2011 04:48 Feidspar wrote:I want to see a replay of a zerg shutting down fast 2 stargate void ray play.
Yay!!!! A friend actually remembered, I couldn't find it.
Check vs Vampire game 1 of the GSTL season 1 finals, Prime vs MVP
|
On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest.
What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen"
|
On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:
What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen"
Haha So true. I've been playing a lot with Mutas in every match up lately because I feel they are a strong unit that force a response. Either you punish a player for leaving their base, they retreat and you expand. Or they don't force a fight or a base race. Great unit that takes some baby sitting to keep alive. one false move command and your game is over. It's strong but not OP.
|
normally i would agree with my fellow zergs that its pretty ironic that the advice we got for dealing with the fact that 200/200 zerg is weaker than 200/200 T or P was just "dont let them get to 200/200 then." The problem with people saying "What are you doing while they mass up 40 mutas?" is that theyre probably dealing with 7 or 8 mutas harassing their bases. That grows into 11 or 12, then to 18 or 19, etc.
I find it hard to have a strong opinion on this discussion though. I think mutas are manageable in WoL by all races, but I can see in PvZ why people would have difficulty sometimes
|
On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen"
No, Broodlord Infestor deals with any lategame Protoss army.
|
On November 13 2011 13:05 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen" No, Broodlord Infestor deals with any lategame Protoss army.
Vortex says hello.
|
On November 13 2011 16:21 Feidspar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 13:05 K3Nyy wrote:On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen" No, Broodlord Infestor deals with any lategame Protoss army. Vortex says hello.
without vortex Protoss would be dead in the water against any super high broodlord count army with infestor support. Motherships are really good yes, doesn't mean broodlord infestor isn't still good.
|
On November 13 2011 12:53 WR4TH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:
What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen" Haha So true. I've been playing a lot with Mutas in every match up lately because I feel they are a strong unit that force a response. Either you punish a player for leaving their base, they retreat and you expand. Or they don't force a fight or a base race. Great unit that takes some baby sitting to keep alive. one false move command and your game is over. It's strong but not OP.
Unfortunately there have been patches to neuter protoss stargates openings to deny extremely quick thirds and the consequent eco advantage has made it very hard on most maps to take a toss third fast enough or do enough eco harass to prevent scenarios where you simply cannot engage or force a conflict that you'll win. Combine that with my point made a page earlier, one control group doesn't regulate the power of a very mobile/decent damage dealer which is quite durable against toss.
It's another case of poor design with Zerg.( though this is more fixable by modifying the stalker than in the case of fungal)
|
On November 13 2011 16:41 Shuffleus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 16:21 Feidspar wrote:On November 13 2011 13:05 K3Nyy wrote:On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen" No, Broodlord Infestor deals with any lategame Protoss army. Vortex says hello. without vortex Protoss would be dead in the water against any super high broodlord count army with infestor support. Motherships are really good yes, doesn't mean broodlord infestor isn't still good.
Whats wrong with voids that are decently split?
|
Terrans aren't participating in this discussion because we're frantically clicking in OSU or marinesplit so we can even survive these endgame deathball engagements, much less win.
|
On November 13 2011 18:58 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 12:53 WR4TH wrote:On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:
What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen" Haha So true. I've been playing a lot with Mutas in every match up lately because I feel they are a strong unit that force a response. Either you punish a player for leaving their base, they retreat and you expand. Or they don't force a fight or a base race. Great unit that takes some baby sitting to keep alive. one false move command and your game is over. It's strong but not OP. Unfortunately there have been patches to neuter protoss stargates openings to deny extremely quick thirds and the consequent eco advantage has made it very hard on most maps to take a toss third fast enough or do enough eco harass to prevent scenarios where you simply cannot engage or force a conflict that you'll win. Combine that with my point made a page earlier, one control group doesn't regulate the power of a very mobile/decent damage dealer which is quite durable against toss. It's another case of poor design with Zerg.( though this is more fixable by modifying the stalker than in the case of fungal)
so you're saying that Protoss being unable to deal with something that zerg does is a zergdesign flaw, while the same thing is OK vs Zerg and Terran?
Don't you think that it is a protoss designflaw (or protoss metagameflaw) that they are unable to play a macrogame in which they can either prevent a zergopponent from being greedy (and 3base openings with 10-20more workers for zerg are quite greedy) or macro right back (11min thirds being "macro" against 4-5min thirds from zerg, who are you kidding?)
Don't you think it is a designflaw (or protoss metagameflaw) that protoss is unable to get 2/3 of the amounts of mutalisks in phoenix to beat mutalisks in 1a battles, 1/3 of the amount of mutalisks in phoenix to repel/outmicro them with phoenix?
It's a freaking Protoss design (or metagame) flaw, that they can't be constantly on the map like the other races are in all matchups. (who is on the map in TvP? T! who is on the map in ZvP? Z! who is on the map in TvZ? T and Z!)
It's a Protoss design (or metagame) flaw that the only times they can be aggressive is when they have more stuff.
It's a Protoss design (or metagame) flaw that they are unable to include certain units in a macro game and rely on stalkers doing every job that could be done by more specialised units (immortals as backbone of an army, phoenix and voidrays as antiair).
Protoss has the units to deal with anything in the game, it is THEIR designproblem (or maybe just a metagameproblem) that's keeping them back.
|
On November 13 2011 19:12 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 16:41 Shuffleus wrote:On November 13 2011 16:21 Feidspar wrote:On November 13 2011 13:05 K3Nyy wrote:On November 13 2011 12:32 FuzZyLogic wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. What is zerg response to any decent toss late game unit comp? "Don't let it happen" No, Broodlord Infestor deals with any lategame Protoss army. Vortex says hello. without vortex Protoss would be dead in the water against any super high broodlord count army with infestor support. Motherships are really good yes, doesn't mean broodlord infestor isn't still good. Whats wrong with voids that are decently split?
that protoss only play 6gate allin into barely being able to get colossi out and then convincing themselves that "it wasn't an allin, because with Colossus I can deal with everything on the ground".
And then they get ****ed by air because they never built 1-2 starports...
|
I must say the theory craft and balance statements in this thread is extremely low level and very wrong.
|
Mutalisks are op NOW, in WoL they'll be worse.
User was warned for this post
|
On November 14 2011 08:37 VTPerfect wrote:
I must say the theory craft and balance statements in this thread is extremely low level and very wrong.
Seconded.
|
I would love if they would reintroduce Muta micro.
Limit the number of Mutalisk you can automatically select to 12, but let them be able to stack.
It's possible, someone made a map where you could stack Muta, but only 12 of them.
If you would want to go mass Mutas, you would need multiple control groups, thus making fast, swift movements impossible.
Also good control would benefit better players. It would make the whole experience so much better.
Also they could scrap their Muta counter units in Hots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
