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On June 21 2012 18:14 leveller wrote:
I hate this change and I hate the pylon radius change as well. What did it even fix? Was people having trouble with 4 gate two years after the game's release? Really? They just make it more frustrating to play as toss and removes options, and has almost nothing to do with balance, just making it harder to play...
The balance issue is with warp-ins, but the way they went about addressing it is ridiculous.
If warp-ins are overpowered, then they should be increasing warp-in times/cooldowns, warp gate research/build time, etc, rather than nerfing pylons.
Silly Blizzard and their sacred dows. 
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On June 21 2012 19:02 ChristianS wrote:
So... your argument is that DTs are just shitty in PvZ, so since no one builds them anyway, no one will build them with a warp prism either? Well that's simply false. People build DTs in PvZ all the time, although recently the metagame doesn't favor them too much. As for the timings, you criticize me for not knowing timings and then 1) don't give a timing for DTs with a warp prism, and 2) suggest that lair would be out by the time a warp prism DT drop would hit. For your information, a warp prism DT push off an FFE hits before ten minutes. A two-base zerg gets lair around 8:30-9:00, but PvZ the zerg is generally on 3-base, so lair doesn't come out until 10:30-11:00 at the earliest. A good zerg will have spore crawlers if they suspect DTs or stargate, but a bad zerg won't have spore crawlers in time for the DTs, which is why DTs are and always have been a high-risk, high-reward play.
But since nobody goes DTs these days, let's skip that matchup. Protosses definitely build DTs in PvT. And I know that PvT there's a lot of value in getting them in the opponent's main, rather than walking it up the front where there is more likely to be a wall-off/turret. And I know that Protoss would like to get the DT out as fast as possible, so sometimes a low-ground hallucination pylon would be a strong choice.
Now we're not necessarily talking a fast expand, so the DTs can come out faster (~6:30). With hallucination, let's delay that a minute and a half (~8:00) Even if we're talking a 1gate expo or something similar, the gateway isn't delayed as much as by an FFE so DTs are faster, but we'll call that a 9:00 timing. Because warp prism takes longer than hallucination, the DTs will come out later, but still before ten minutes.
So there are viable DT builds, including a hallucination+pylon warp-in to the main, and a warp prism DT drop/warp-in. Now if those involving the high-ground warp-in are removed, the players who would have done those strategies are forced to either switch to the warp prism DT build, or switch to another strategy entirely. Since at least some of them will choose a later, more expensive DT build rather than no DT's at all, the warp prism sees more use.
At that point I realized why you think DT's are good in PvZ and that you proooobably don't play Z (at least not at a better than Gold level). The Stephano style of ZvP has Lair by 9:15.
And yes, removing this strategy might make people use more Warp Prisms. Remove Muta's and Z is still balanced. Lingfestor ZvT, Roachfestor ZvP. Balance is not the problem. The problem is eliminating variety for no proper reason. Now we can use both Hallucination and Robo. Eliminating a choice is purely stupid. Not even going to mention 3gate Stargate PvT all-in with high ground warp-in or PvZ Zealot Stargate harass (which tbh has fallen out of the metagame with Roaches being so used nowadays.)
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On June 21 2012 19:26 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:14 leveller wrote:
I hate this change and I hate the pylon radius change as well. What did it even fix? Was people having trouble with 4 gate two years after the game's release? Really? They just make it more frustrating to play as toss and removes options, and has almost nothing to do with balance, just making it harder to play... The balance issue is with warp-ins, but the way they went about addressing it is ridiculous. If warp-ins are overpowered, then they should be increasing warp-in times/cooldowns, warp gate research/build time, etc, rather than nerfing pylons. Silly Blizzard and their sacred dows.
I still don't know why they insist on warp gate technology being on cyber core. I wished they tried mixing things around like making zealot legs go in the cyber core and warp tech go in the twilight citadel.
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Ohhh, Stephano gets a faster three-base lair? Weird, three-base lairtech at 9:15 is a mathematical impossibility in TvZ. I guess because zerg has the gas to get lair and roaches at 9:15, but not enough gas to get lair and mutas or lair and infestors. Interesting. This hardly kills the possibility of DTs, though. What does kill them is that Zergs are scouting Protoss mains like crazy these days. All gas timings will be known, and a suicide overlord will more likely than not see every tech structure you have. And besides the scouting, any DTs you build won't help you hold off the maxed roach push; you need immortals instead.
I'd like to point out that this was not a balance change, in that Blizzard didn't remove it because they thought it was imbalanced; they removed it because they thought it was bad game design. For comparison, Terran has to wait until medivacs to be able to airlift units directly into the opponent's main. Zerg has to wail until lairtech and ventral sacs research, and they'll probably want pneumatized carapace, as well. This means when playing against Terran and Zerg, you don't have to worry about units in your base until fairly late. For Protoss the same is true for a warp prism; but a low-ground pylon can come significantly earlier. All three races have advantages, and this is one Protoss has had in WoL; apparently Blizzard thinks Protoss should have to wait like everyone else to get into the main in HotS. What with all the new features in HotS, you probably don't need to worry too much about options being removed. HotS is more likely to suffer from having too many options than too few.
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On June 21 2012 18:40 bowenkhong wrote:
I don't mind removing high-ground warp-in from pylons if in exchange for disable Terran lift off ability. Terran lift off ability make it a "sure win" when come to base race situation.
then dont go for a base-race, same as Terran shouldnt go for late game in TvP.
There, fixed.
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On June 22 2012 04:25 ChristianS wrote:
Ohhh, Stephano gets a faster three-base lair? Weird, three-base lairtech at 9:15 is a mathematical impossibility in TvZ
Double gas at 6:00 lets you have enough gas for lair at 7:30 even if you get ling speed first (only about 60-70% sure about this. But I know for a fact you can start lair at 7:30). Lair build time is 80s gametime, meaning lair finishes at 8:50.
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On June 21 2012 18:14 leveller wrote:
I hate this change and I hate the pylon radius change as well. What did it even fix? Was people having trouble with 4 gate two years after the game's release? Really? They just make it more frustrating to play as toss and removes options, and has almost nothing to do with balance, just making it harder to play...
Oh lord. We would not make Protoss harder to play. Is that even possible?
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On June 21 2012 19:02 ChristianS wrote:
So... your argument is that DTs are just shitty in PvZ, so since no one builds them anyway, no one will build them with a warp prism either? Well that's simply false. People build DTs in PvZ all the time, although recently the metagame doesn't favor them too much. As for the timings, you criticize me for not knowing timings and then 1) don't give a timing for DTs with a warp prism, and 2) suggest that lair would be out by the time a warp prism DT drop would hit. For your information, a warp prism DT push off an FFE hits before ten minutes. A two-base zerg gets lair around 8:30-9:00, but PvZ the zerg is generally on 3-base, so lair doesn't come out until 10:30-11:00 at the earliest. A good zerg will have spore crawlers if they suspect DTs or stargate, but a bad zerg won't have spore crawlers in time for the DTs, which is why DTs are and always have been a high-risk, high-reward play.
But since nobody goes DTs these days, let's skip that matchup. Protosses definitely build DTs in PvT. And I know that PvT there's a lot of value in getting them in the opponent's main, rather than walking it up the front where there is more likely to be a wall-off/turret. And I know that Protoss would like to get the DT out as fast as possible, so sometimes a low-ground hallucination pylon would be a strong choice.
Now we're not necessarily talking a fast expand, so the DTs can come out faster (~6:30). With hallucination, let's delay that a minute and a half (~8:00) Even if we're talking a 1gate expo or something similar, the gateway isn't delayed as much as by an FFE so DTs are faster, but we'll call that a 9:00 timing. Because warp prism takes longer than hallucination, the DTs will come out later, but still before ten minutes.
So there are viable DT builds, including a hallucination+pylon warp-in to the main, and a warp prism DT drop/warp-in. Now if those involving the high-ground warp-in are removed, the players who would have done those strategies are forced to either switch to the warp prism DT build, or switch to another strategy entirely. Since at least some of them will choose a later, more expensive DT build rather than no DT's at all, the warp prism sees more use.
My argument is that your example is bullshit and non-existent. That, and not only are DT's shitt(ier) due to the recent meta game, but your example of using a low ground pylon to warp them in simply reeks of ignorance. I just explained why that'd never be viable over a warp prism, why they're two separate timings that both have entirely different impacts. Why you'd even need either if you can just walk up his ramp if he doesn't have detection. I spent twenty minutes of my time and it went over your head. Because you don't understand PvZ or the metagame. Or the monumental differences between a cheesy low ground pylon and a much more safer warp prism, and the differences in viability/TIMING between them that make them entirely separate builds.
You're literally just going to cycle through every match-up and strategy until I explain it all for you, because you don't know what you're talking about. It's not even an argument of DT's. You made up an example that doesn't actually exist and now you're committed to defending it.
Warp prism use remains the same and is unaffected. Stop wasting my time.
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No one uses DT's with a warp prism. That would "reek of ignorance."
link: Squirtle vs. Thorzain
Guess Squirtle also "reeks of ignorance." Okay.
Them being "separate builds" is besides the point. Of course they're separate builds. One of them hits faster and doesn't use a warp prism. If that one is removed because it can't warp to the high-ground, that leaves the slower one that uses a warp prism. So instead of using the first build with high-ground warp-in, they're forced to use the second one (or they walk the DTs up the ramp, which is often less effective against Terran. Or they could stop going DTs entirely.).
Sorry for "wasting your time" by forcing you to go on a discussion board and discuss. It's really awful how you had no choice in the matter.
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On June 22 2012 05:27 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 19:02 ChristianS wrote:
So... your argument is that DTs are just shitty in PvZ, so since no one builds them anyway, no one will build them with a warp prism either? Well that's simply false. People build DTs in PvZ all the time, although recently the metagame doesn't favor them too much. As for the timings, you criticize me for not knowing timings and then 1) don't give a timing for DTs with a warp prism, and 2) suggest that lair would be out by the time a warp prism DT drop would hit. For your information, a warp prism DT push off an FFE hits before ten minutes. A two-base zerg gets lair around 8:30-9:00, but PvZ the zerg is generally on 3-base, so lair doesn't come out until 10:30-11:00 at the earliest. A good zerg will have spore crawlers if they suspect DTs or stargate, but a bad zerg won't have spore crawlers in time for the DTs, which is why DTs are and always have been a high-risk, high-reward play.
But since nobody goes DTs these days, let's skip that matchup. Protosses definitely build DTs in PvT. And I know that PvT there's a lot of value in getting them in the opponent's main, rather than walking it up the front where there is more likely to be a wall-off/turret. And I know that Protoss would like to get the DT out as fast as possible, so sometimes a low-ground hallucination pylon would be a strong choice.
Now we're not necessarily talking a fast expand, so the DTs can come out faster (~6:30). With hallucination, let's delay that a minute and a half (~8:00) Even if we're talking a 1gate expo or something similar, the gateway isn't delayed as much as by an FFE so DTs are faster, but we'll call that a 9:00 timing. Because warp prism takes longer than hallucination, the DTs will come out later, but still before ten minutes.
So there are viable DT builds, including a hallucination+pylon warp-in to the main, and a warp prism DT drop/warp-in. Now if those involving the high-ground warp-in are removed, the players who would have done those strategies are forced to either switch to the warp prism DT build, or switch to another strategy entirely. Since at least some of them will choose a later, more expensive DT build rather than no DT's at all, the warp prism sees more use. My argument is that your example is bullshit and non-existent. That, and not only are DT's shitt(ier) due to the recent meta game, but your example of using a low ground pylon to warp them in simply reeks of ignorance. I just explained why that'd never be viable over a warp prism, why they're two separate timings that both have entirely different impacts. Why you'd even need either if you can just walk up his ramp if he doesn't have detection. I spent twenty minutes of my time and it went over your head. Because you don't understand PvZ or the metagame. Or the monumental differences between a cheesy low ground pylon and a much more safer warp prism, and the differences in viability/TIMING between them that make them entirely separate builds. You're literally just going to cycle through every match-up and strategy until I explain it all for you, because you don't know what you're talking about. It's not even an argument of DT's. You made up an example that doesn't actually exist and now you're committed to defending it. Warp prism use remains the same and is unaffected. Stop wasting my time.
How is warp prism "more viable" than warping up ramp? You need twice the gas in an already gas-heavy build.
How is taking 2 minutes longer "much more safer?" Is it then safer to stay in your base for half an hour macroing?
He specifically mentioned why walking up the ramp is not an option in PvT. Can you tell me why he was wrong in that assertion?
You seem to be using scarecrow arguments again and again and never actually refute the arguments made, just assert that you have covered it.
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On June 22 2012 08:49 ChristianS wrote:No one uses DT's with a warp prism. That would "reek of ignorance." link: Squirtle vs. ThorzainGuess Squirtle also "reeks of ignorance." Okay. Them being "separate builds" is besides the point. Of course they're separate builds. One of them hits faster and doesn't use a warp prism. If that one is removed because it can't warp to the high-ground, that leaves the slower one that uses a warp prism. So instead of using the first build with high-ground warp-in, they're forced to use the second one (or they walk the DTs up the ramp, which is often less effective against Terran. Or they could stop going DTs entirely.). Sorry for "wasting your time" by forcing you to go on a discussion board and discuss. It's really awful how you had no choice in the matter.
Might wanna clean the wall behind your head, it appears my point flew past you again. I'm referring to a low ground pylon in PvZ. You know, the example you made up on the top of your head because you don't actually know the builds impacted by this change. Or much of anything about the dynamics of the match-up that give rise to low ground pylon usage over warp prism.
You literally just have no understanding in anything you're talking about. Like, you're IGNORING the timings and tunnel visioning purely on the idea of warping DT's into the main, as if that has some sort of value that transcends the relevant timings that make low ground pylon builds powerful. Cause they're almost all timings/all-ins. I think you also missed the fact that by building a pylon with no units (the units generally in an all-in that defend the pylon) you're basically hoping your opponent doesn't find it.
A discussion board? This is TL. TL has posting standards. I'm not going to let you get away with posting outright incorrect bullshit based off your non-existent low level theorycrafting.
On June 22 2012 08:57 Shai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:27 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 21 2012 19:02 ChristianS wrote:
So... your argument is that DTs are just shitty in PvZ, so since no one builds them anyway, no one will build them with a warp prism either? Well that's simply false. People build DTs in PvZ all the time, although recently the metagame doesn't favor them too much. As for the timings, you criticize me for not knowing timings and then 1) don't give a timing for DTs with a warp prism, and 2) suggest that lair would be out by the time a warp prism DT drop would hit. For your information, a warp prism DT push off an FFE hits before ten minutes. A two-base zerg gets lair around 8:30-9:00, but PvZ the zerg is generally on 3-base, so lair doesn't come out until 10:30-11:00 at the earliest. A good zerg will have spore crawlers if they suspect DTs or stargate, but a bad zerg won't have spore crawlers in time for the DTs, which is why DTs are and always have been a high-risk, high-reward play.
But since nobody goes DTs these days, let's skip that matchup. Protosses definitely build DTs in PvT. And I know that PvT there's a lot of value in getting them in the opponent's main, rather than walking it up the front where there is more likely to be a wall-off/turret. And I know that Protoss would like to get the DT out as fast as possible, so sometimes a low-ground hallucination pylon would be a strong choice.
Now we're not necessarily talking a fast expand, so the DTs can come out faster (~6:30). With hallucination, let's delay that a minute and a half (~8:00) Even if we're talking a 1gate expo or something similar, the gateway isn't delayed as much as by an FFE so DTs are faster, but we'll call that a 9:00 timing. Because warp prism takes longer than hallucination, the DTs will come out later, but still before ten minutes.
So there are viable DT builds, including a hallucination+pylon warp-in to the main, and a warp prism DT drop/warp-in. Now if those involving the high-ground warp-in are removed, the players who would have done those strategies are forced to either switch to the warp prism DT build, or switch to another strategy entirely. Since at least some of them will choose a later, more expensive DT build rather than no DT's at all, the warp prism sees more use. My argument is that your example is bullshit and non-existent. That, and not only are DT's shitt(ier) due to the recent meta game, but your example of using a low ground pylon to warp them in simply reeks of ignorance. I just explained why that'd never be viable over a warp prism, why they're two separate timings that both have entirely different impacts. Why you'd even need either if you can just walk up his ramp if he doesn't have detection. I spent twenty minutes of my time and it went over your head. Because you don't understand PvZ or the metagame. Or the monumental differences between a cheesy low ground pylon and a much more safer warp prism, and the differences in viability/TIMING between them that make them entirely separate builds. You're literally just going to cycle through every match-up and strategy until I explain it all for you, because you don't know what you're talking about. It's not even an argument of DT's. You made up an example that doesn't actually exist and now you're committed to defending it. Warp prism use remains the same and is unaffected. Stop wasting my time. How is warp prism "more viable" than warping up ramp? You need twice the gas in an already gas-heavy build. How is taking 2 minutes longer "much more safer?" Is it then safer to stay in your base for half an hour macroing? He specifically mentioned why walking up the ramp is not an option in PvT. Can you tell me why he was wrong in that assertion? You seem to be using scarecrow arguments again and again and never actually refute the arguments made, just assert that you have covered it.
Scarecrow arguments? How about you read my previous posts instead of butting in mid post, out of context and asserting yourself? Like, when i say warp prism is safer, you realize, that hiding a pylon near the edge of an opponent's base requires that when left undefended, which is the case in most DT builds that can't afford much of a gateway army, is basically crossing your fingers and hoping they don't find it? It's literally a requirement that a building starts and FINISHES without being found and destroyed. And a warp prism is infinitely more flexible for that reason, or safer, in that your "plan" isn't immediately ruined when they simply scout the edge of their base -- unlike the various all-ins using this pylon where you can build the pylon in their face but it can't be contested because of the army behind it.
Why don't you read his previous example on PvZ? Rather, why don't you read anything before making assumptions out of context? Thanks.
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I'm curious, is this change actually occuring in HOTS? Because it's such an old post so...
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I gave an example of PvZ. That example assumed DT timings that are delayed of an FFE, which is the basis of the matchup these days. Of course current metagame is irrelevant when discussing a change that won't go into effect until HotS. But based on your objection, I acknowledged that DTs are rare in PvZ and therefore a bad example. PvT, on the other hand, is not based on the FFE, so these timings do apply. You're still hung up on a PvZ example that I have acknowledged is difficult to evaluate because current metagame makes DT builds pretty rare anyway. If you really insist on still using PvZ for the discussion, lets suppose the protoss is Nony; he still goes gateway expand rather than FFE in PvZ.
It's true, this is TL and TL has posting standards. Those standards are enforced by mods, not by you. You have no obligation to troll through TL telling people they're stupid. As a matter of fact, many of TL's posting standards have to do with civility, and your posts have been anything but civil.
And of course low-ground pylon builds depend on the opponent not scouting. DT builds in general depend on your opponent not scouting. This is one reason DT builds are often considered "cheese."
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sorry other toss players dont seem to mind i dont mind either playing all three races so you should stop qqing toss have other things to do then proxy pylons and warp in from low ground in hots for easy wins
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If they remove high ground warpins at least they should bring back the larger pylon radius!
I hate this small radius with a passion and it also makes cannon placement vs muta a pain in the ass...
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
If they remove high ground warpins at least they should bring back the larger pylon radius!
I hate this small radius with a passion and it also makes cannon placement vs muta a pain in the ass...
You got Nexus Core purify ability to defend against mutalisks
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On June 22 2012 05:03 NubbleST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 04:25 ChristianS wrote:
Ohhh, Stephano gets a faster three-base lair? Weird, three-base lairtech at 9:15 is a mathematical impossibility in TvZ Double gas at 6:00 lets you have enough gas for lair at 7:30 even if you get ling speed first (only about 60-70% sure about this. But I know for a fact you can start lair at 7:30). Lair build time is 80s gametime, meaning lair finishes at 8:50.
extractor takes exactly 30 seconds to build, you mine exactly 100 gas in 55 seconds off 1 geyser with 3 drones.
I know 100gas/55 sec because roach warren = 55 second buildtime and I add up gas for earlygame roach builds
You are correct, you could infact get ling speed first (adding 28 seconds to account for 100 more gas mined on 2 geysers)
So
6:00 2 gas start
6:30=gas finishes
6:30+ 28 (time for 100 gas) = 6:58 time lair could start
80 seconds for lair to build
7:00+80sec=8:20 lair finishes
or
6:00 2 gas start
6:30=gas finishes
6:30+ 55 (time for 100 gas) = 7:25 time lair could start after ling speed
80 seconds for lair to build
7:30+80sec=8:50 lair finishes
Theres like 2.5 seconds for human error assuming you're playing optimally. And yes stephano plays quite optimally.
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A good change imo. With the current design, all maps for protoss are practically flat. What's the use of terrain. Colossus can already walk on elevated ground, stalkers can blink anywhere with vision. The pylon design truly makes protoss tend to stick to extremely gimmicky play and it's upto the opponent to always scout for such gimmicks? come on.
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put a cap on the number of warp in per pylon (per time).
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EPT
