Range: Tough to say...maybe 4-5 (not great)...ground range looks longer...maybe 7 Cool down: Again tough to say...maybe the same as an immortal
In the demo that Dustin showed, he stacked a large number of mutas by attacking one pylon, then with no micro let them stay clumped and engage 4 tempests directly in a slugfest. The tempests win with Dustin indicating this this was a little OP in favor of the tempest and that they would probably be nerfed in the future.
Even without the nerf, these units don't look that good. Psi storm does 80 damage vs the tempests 22 damage (same radius) plus psi storm has better range. If Dustin had done this same demonstration with unmicrod mutas vs psi-storm that would have looked bad for the mutas as well, but this is all very deceptive. For 22 attack and no ground AOE, I don't see this being effective against non-muta air units even in mass. Vs mutas, the mutas will simply fly away like they do with psi-storm. Even in head-to-head engagements.... Mutas have 120 hps, so if the tempest does 22 damage (if my source is correct) , then it will take 6 shots to kill a muta and that's off of a huge cool down.
If you add up all the money say three tempests + fleet beacon cost you get 1200/1100 in cost (plus 18 supply?). This doesn't make sense especially when so many zergs will go say ~10 mutas to contain and scout protoss, and then do a tech switch once protoss over-invest in anti-air.
The build time for each tempest will no doubt be ridiculous (over a minute a piece) and when you add in the build time for the fleet beacon (60 seconds), I don't see these units (even if they were effective 1 on 1) being constructed fast enough to counter mass muta.
In the end the most effective strategy protoss will have for mass muta will be guardian shield/blink stalkers + archons/storm for large flocks + timely aggression and scouting. Don't see the tempest as being viable although I wish it would be.
you protoss players are ridiculous. how can u say any of ur new units are bad?
first off the tempest has a range of 6, not 4. 2ndly just 2-3 of those things seems to give extrmly dominant air control.
remember broodlord infestor? no longer a issue since those things will get rid of broodlords in the late game just as effectivly as a archon toilet now...
oracles are great harass units. a harass unit does not need to kill works just to be good -_-. at the highest levels a few oracles shutting down bases can actually be game breaking. have a gold base? fly 2 oracles over there and that gold base is USELESS untill u send like half ur army to destroy the entombing.
replicant is also good. replicating any unit in the game that u want? doing that can flip a strat like 1/1/1 heavily in tosses favor and change the entire dynamic of a PvT or PvZ. it being expensive is good so it wont be heavily abused to death.
i think what you toss players really want is more units to be added to the death ball which is not going to happen.
I take it you didn't read any of my posts, but if you go back and read them I explained in detail why I don't really like the new Toss units. Nice straw man at the end of your post by the way.
On October 23 2011 05:48 chocopaw wrote: I just realized through the trivia questions: Practically removing the thor from at least competetive play is kind of a dick move towards collectors edition owners, isn't it?
different games/ladders. You'll still have the collector's edition thor on the WOL ladder
On October 23 2011 05:40 Ballistixz wrote: you protoss players are ridiculous. how can u say any of ur new units are bad?
Deductive reasoning You can make certain inferences without waiting for the beta to play out.
first off the tempest has a range of 6, not 4. 2ndly just 2-3 of those things seems to give extrmly dominant air control.
Meh... So did the Thor and HT. Problem was that most counters to mutas were too slow or took to long to tech too. I haven't seen any evidence that the tempest is any exception.
Just checked and the build time for tempests will be 75 seconds...ouch
remember broodlord infestor? no longer a issue since those things will get rid of broodlords in the late game just as effectivly as a archon toilet now...
I doubt that. Broodlords are pretty beefy 225 hp (for a air unit). So it's going to take a long time for a tempest with 22 damage per shot to take them down (their cool down is much longer than the archons). I myself would prefer mass blink stalker. If zerg has committed say 40 supply to 10 broodlords and say 80 supply to workers, that only leaves 80 supply to fend off mass blink stalker which is winnable for protoss. Also, there doesn't seem to be a nice transition for protoss out of tempests.
Range: Tough to say...maybe 4-5 (not great)...ground range looks longer...maybe 7 Cool down: Again tough to say...maybe the same as an immortal
In the demo that Dustin showed, he stacked a large number of mutas by attacking one pylon, then with no micro let them stay clumped and engage 4 tempests directly in a slugfest. The tempests win with Dustin indicating this this was a little OP in favor of the tempest and that they would probably be nerfed in the future.
Even without the nerf, these units don't look that good. Psi storm does 80 damage vs the tempests 22 damage (same radius) plus psi storm has better range. If Dustin had done this same demonstration with unmicrod mutas vs psi-storm that would have looked bad for the mutas as well, but this is all very deceptive. For 22 attack and no ground AOE, I don't see this being effective against non-muta air units even in mass. Vs mutas, the mutas will simply fly away like they do with psi-storm. Even in head-to-head engagements.... Mutas have 120 hps, so if the tempest does 22 damage (if my source is correct) , then it will take 6 shots to kill a muta and that's off of a huge cool down.
If you add up all the money say three tempests + fleet beacon cost you get 1200/1100 in cost (plus 18 supply?). This doesn't make sense especially when so many zergs will go say ~10 mutas to contain and scout protoss, and then do a tech switch once protoss over-invest in anti-air.
The build time for each tempest will no doubt be ridiculous (over a minute a piece) and when you add in the build time for the fleet beacon (60 seconds), I don't see these units (even if they were effective 1 on 1) being constructed fast enough to counter mass muta.
In the end the most effective strategy protoss will have for mass muta will be guardian shield/blink stalkers + archons/storm for large flocks + timely aggression and scouting. Don't see the tempest as being viable although I wish it would be.
you protoss players are ridiculous. how can u say any of ur new units are bad?
first off the tempest has a range of 6, not 4. 2ndly just 2-3 of those things seems to give extrmly dominant air control.
remember broodlord infestor? no longer a issue since those things will get rid of broodlords in the late game just as effectivly as a archon toilet now...
oracles are great harass units. a harass unit does not need to kill works just to be good -_-. at the highest levels a few oracles shutting down bases can actually be game breaking. have a gold base? fly 2 oracles over there and that gold base is USELESS untill u send like half ur army to destroy the entombing.
replicant is also good. replicating any unit in the game that u want? doing that can flip a strat like 1/1/1 heavily in tosses favor and change the entire dynamic of a PvT or PvZ. it being expensive is good so it wont be heavily abused to death.
i think what you toss players really want is more units to be added to the death ball which is not going to happen.
Yeah and what the fuck at making the comparaison between the tempest attack and the psi storm, seriously you're ridiculous guys.
On October 23 2011 05:58 phathom321 wrote: I can totally see PvP turning into Replicator wars, and whoever gets the first tech unit and sacrifices a replicator loses >.>
Aren't the replicators rather expensive themselves though? Either way, while I think it is the best unit added to Toss, I still don't really like the unit from a design PoV.
For what it's worth, I'd like to say that I'm unhappy with Zerg mobile detection in HotS as it is now. However, I have no doubt it'll be better by beta or at least release if isn't actually fine presently.
I think they'll probably end up keeping the overseer or maybe reworking it in the end. That's at least how I'd prefer it. I like the idea of being able to create another mobile detector with the viper, but I'm not seeing it as a reliable replacement for overseers. The idea is kinda cool, but maybe not practical. Still, it might be nice if they kept it as an option for emergency detection--maybe replacing a lost overseer in combat at the cost of a few blinding clouds or a grab. Making a burrowed roach into a shitty observer could be pretty entertaining too. A burrowed detector ling could also be a poor man's substitute for a spore crawler at an expansion. Both of those are assuming their vision and detection while burrowed is sufficient with the buff however.
I'm pretty sure it'll change in some way. It just doesn't look finished to me. Hell, for all we know, it might be able to be planted on enemy units some day like the old queen's parasite. The viper could even turn into a throwback morph for the queen into another flying combat support unit. A "Matriarch" or something along those lines-- the ocular parasite being explained lore wise as a specialized creep tumor or larva inject modification and the dark swarm thing as a kind of blood cloud replacement for transfuse. Crazy shit like that. Who knows how much it will change by release?
On October 22 2011 01:06 venom0us wrote: Wow unbelievable. Thanks for the pics.
Edit: Replacing Thor with warhound? Replacing overseer with Viper? Damn you to those who guessed hellion, i was hoping for a new freeze bio unit -_-. Are they replacing mothership with tempest? Oracle is basically an overseer for protoss. So excited haha. Can't wait for the panel and definitely cant wait to see these bad boys in action!!!
Edit 2: Replicating a drone or scv could make for some interesting gameplay...
Mothership is simply gone, with no attempt to replace it (and how could you?). the tempest replaces the carrier x ( x ( while it does look incredible, the carrier is my favorite starcraft unit : /
Also, why even replicate a drone /scv? you can just copy their units anyways O . O (without their workers / buildings)
I hope they get rid of blue flame entirely with this new battle mode.
And I'm glad they are getting rid of the mothership. Shuch a stupid unit. But I'm very sad about the carrier, even if has been pretty much worthless in WoL ;_;
I believe that most of the terran players don't actually realize how great of a difference that will be for us. Now we have the ability to go mech in almost every match-up. Let me try to explaing...
TvZ: Hellions still can be used to great harass and yet, be a decent protection against most of roaches all-ins that are becoming so popular in the early TvZ. Alongside with the Shroders we can secure counter-attack paths and easily control muta harass with the new Warhound, that I must say... is AMAZING against roaches and mutas. In general, all terrans are going to learn is how to transition into mech and greatly use raven in TvZ, cause the Dark Sworm can destroy mech units. (moving banelings won't be much of a problem for mech players)
TvP: Warhound and Hellion on the mid/late game are going to obliterate the regular gateway/robo tech. That's exactly why Blizz is start to focus on the startgate tech to protoss, and I believe a major change will occur on the toss play. But if they don't change to a more harass/flying game style, Mech will do great against toss.
TvT: This is where most of the changes will happen. It's almost impossible to imagine what will happen to the matchup, cause a simple modification can change all game play... but I belive that Mech will be AWESOME! cause, now.. helions can be the buffer unit needed to protect siege-tanks while they attack the MMM ball. And drop play will be greatly diminuish due to the warhound air defence control.
On October 23 2011 04:49 imareaver3 wrote: Okay, MLG confirmed arc shield can go on any structure, is as powerful as a photon cannon, and is unlocked after gateway. Here's the link:http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/my-first-hots-cheese-the-arc-shield/
Like, this needs a huge nerf. If the Protoss just manages to gas steal you, that's a cannon in your base. The pylon blocking your hatch? Another cannon. The random proxy pylon you found? 400 health cannon, good luck getting enough units to kill it before the 4-gate hits. I don't even know how that could be balanced--Zerg needs to double gas at 14 to stop the assimilator from killing their worker line, can't expand before 3 roaches because the pylon will kill all their lings, and can't deal with proxy pylons without dragging an army along.
it only acts for a limited time, and it only effects light units, seems pretty balanced
So imagine the following scenario: Protoss sends out a Probe immediately at the start of the game, does not use Chrono for anything and steals both gases. Once P has 50 Energy on the Nexus, it turns both Assimilators into Cannons. This would either kill the entire mineral line or force the enemy to not mine at all. After 1-2 minutes of game time.
How in the world would you stop that (besides the obvious "Don't let it happen in the first place")?
On October 22 2011 01:06 venom0us wrote: Wow unbelievable. Thanks for the pics.
Edit: Replacing Thor with warhound? Replacing overseer with Viper? Damn you to those who guessed hellion, i was hoping for a new freeze bio unit -_-. Are they replacing mothership with tempest? Oracle is basically an overseer for protoss. So excited haha. Can't wait for the panel and definitely cant wait to see these bad boys in action!!!
Edit 2: Replicating a drone or scv could make for some interesting gameplay...
Also, why even replicate a drone /scv? you can just copy their units anyways O . O (without their workers / buildings)
might be like mind controlling a worker in brood war.. wonder if you would get your own separate supply for that worker.. then you could just replicate an scv, make a command centre and permanently have terran technology.
guess that would be hard to finance though.. unless it was BGH.. lmao.
On October 23 2011 05:57 RifleCow wrote: If an oracle shuts down a spore crawler, does the spore crawler still have detection?
It disables all abilities of the target so I'd presume yes. Oracle + DT rush vs Z sounds viable.
Things like that (as well as just holding off static D and reinforcements as a part of your main army) is where I can see the Oracle being useful.
For its econ harass it seems like they would have to make it weaker, cheaper, and quicker to get. Protoss already has very effective but expensive and late arriving harass in drops (HTs, upgraded chargelots, immortals etc) and a relatively quick to get but limited damage harass (Pheonix). It seems like the Oracle tries to fill the gap inbetween but just can't do it. Then again I will have to see it used more before a total assessment.
On October 23 2011 06:01 Paper117 wrote: For what it's worth, I'd like to say that I'm unhappy with Zerg mobile detection in HotS as it is now. However, I have no doubt it'll be better by beta or at least release if isn't actually fine presently.
I sort of doubt they'll put the overseer back in. At least the Viper seems to come straight out of lair, not spire as people originally presumed, which means it'll be out in time for DT rushes and such, in most cases.
I'd love the Viper ability if it wasn't because it's one time. What will end up happening is, Zerg will be forced to make a minimum amount of vipers (say 1 per base, to give detection to queens, then more as queens are sniped, and they will def be targeted more than ever) even if the Z player doesn't want to use Vipers in any other way in their strategy. Forced into making a unit you don't "need" has a bad taste in my mouth, even if the Vipers' other abilities seem pretty cool and useful.
EPT
