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So a good friend of mine has been using an Xbox Controller to play sc2 since its conception. This makes me think that maybe one day SC2 can come to consoles in the near future?
Here's the link, check the vods if you think im trolling
http://www.justin.tv/sc2cress
edit: he plays at a diamond level, and is a very strong macro player.
Why he does it:
+ Show Spoiler +A long time ago Cress bought a computer monitor that was just so large, it was much like a flat-panel TV. and with a lack of a desk big enough; he started using an entertainment center. So he uses his computer, much like you would a TV and uses his controller for every action he does, except for typing.
So since he already uses the controller and SC2 had a grid-setup; he simply started playing on the controller. There is much more to HOW he does it, but he'd rather keep it a secrete. but that's the why. From my personal analysis. I find that the controller is a viable option for the game, but take far more practice then the mouse and keyboard, but it does have its benefits. For one, it's easier to get into a type of rhythm for the game, and for your macro.
The most common identification is that fact you cant micro. Well, with Micro, you typically aren't doing many amazing feats, but when it comes to moving units around, it's all about practice rather then a handicap. Cress himself, practices his micro quite a bit and maybe it's not up to par, but that's more a fault on his part rather then the controller itself.
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I really don't think that the pros could achieve any major feats of micro with a controller.... I mean look at Halo Wars.
XBox controllers may be OK as a fun handicap though.
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starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters.....
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You can operate well above diamond level with your macro, using the controller and micro comes down to your sensitivity and familiarity with the controller itself
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On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters.....
.... shutters.....
![[image loading]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/phillip2810/DSC_0002stonecastwindowsandshutters.jpg)
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On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters.....
Surprisingly I first got hooked into Starcraft 64, despite how shit the controls were for that game and how slow everything was.
Good times.
Oh and RTS is historically been not good on consoles because of the lack of controls. You can't possibly play SC2 without dumbing down the controls.
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I don't know why you would want to torture yourself playing like this.
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A game designed for the console would be fine but a game designed for the pc taken to the consoles will just be icky. If there were to be a Starcraft game on consoles I think they would make it specifically for consoles.
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this hurts my brain, cuz i think he could be so much better if he just used a kayboard and mouse. Impressive that hes even able to play any level with a controller i suppose.
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XBox controllers may be OK as a fun handicap though.
Totally agree with this statement. I would like to see a couple showmatches of top pros who also like Xbox going head to head with some lower level fans for fun. I think it would be a good time. ^_^
Other than this though, there are reasons why the RTS genre is (for the most part) a PC-dominated scene. I think anyone who could micro and play the game at the highest level with an Xbox controller would be absolutely godlike. Not to mention they probably spend thousands of hours perfecting their control. I never could see Xbox controllers going mainstream as a default control set up for SC2.
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That is sick. I tried playing Halo Wars and got pissed of because I could not get anything done with a controller. I would be bronze level if I tried to use a controller.
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Lol he seems quite fast and accurate with it, very impressive :D
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if you watch the stream it is actually quite impressive. I for sure thought he was trolling because he was very accurate and he has mapped out all the hotkeys somehow on an xbox controller, but if you watch you'll see he isn't faking. Of course I would never consider playing this way... but some might.
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This just brings back memory's of the old StarCraft 64.. man that was terrible.
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On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters.....
He problaby meant shivers :/
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On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/
shudders?
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It's interesting but it's obvious that you're very limited. And I can't help but see this as some kind of stream advertising :p
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On October 19 2011 08:07 Philo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/ shudders?
SHOCKERS
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2011 07:51 Meteora.GB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... Surprisingly I first got hooked into Starcraft 64, despite how shit the controls were for that game and how slow everything was. Good times. Oh and RTS is historically been not good on consoles because of the lack of controls. You can't possibly play SC2 without dumbing down the controls.
Same for Shooters, but in Shooters they get an soft Aimbot and for rts - well something similar. A cheat for PC but for Toys total fair and wanted.
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it only works for lower leagues, because its very hard to macro, and you almost insta-lose aginst a half-decent person using a mouse at microing
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I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters
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Might be cool to have two different mouse states. Say you use the left stick to move your army, then start to move the left stick, it saves the mouse's position, then the mouse appears in the bottom right so you can press the hotkeys. Then when you move the left stick again, it loads where the mouse was.
Then you can put control groups or common hotkeys (such as Forcefield and Fungal) on the other buttons.
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His control actuially is pretty damn awesome. The way he moves his mouse and selcts buidlings seems pretty nice to me! How do you hotkey? Whats your controls for this?
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On October 19 2011 08:15 ZeroCartin wrote:
His control actuially is pretty damn awesome. The way he moves his mouse and selcts buidlings seems pretty nice to me! How do you hotkey? Whats your controls for this?
guess the d-pad would be the choice to hotkey. u got 8 directions. should be working ok. bind sth to hotekey could be trigger+dpad direction
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starcraft 64....................
*pukes*
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oops my english sucks i ment to say shudders.P
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I'm actually impressed at his speed and accuracy... Still mouse+keyboard > controller (this is true for FPS too imo haha)
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You can macro alright with it but when it comes to micro, building placement and reaction time, there's really no way to use a controller competitively.
But it's cool that your friend's doing this.
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You're friend should play vs. Qxc on an arcade stick.
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i took a peek without very high hopes, but i was deffinitely slightly impressed. it wasnt nearly as disgustingly bad as i thought it would be, and he seemed to be able to do some of the things i thought might be impossible to do with an xbox controller (like saved camera locations [maybe didnt pay enough attention to see if that was what he was actually doing])
i still think it would never be as good as a mouse and keyboard, and i dont think u could compete at a high level with it. but i think for casual gamers or just for a bit of fun or relaxing team games. it can suffice.
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I don't think it could ever work at a high level, but none the less this is awesome!!
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Ive tried this for lulz, macro isn't as bad as you think, but i felt very limited as there are simply not enough buttons, as i play zerg and needed a way to backspace inject with queens and needed an extra button to select larva requiring more keys for production then toss. i don't see good forcefields, bling/ling wars or any micro working. I felt completely crippled, stuck to very limited production due to the lack of keys. Note on the d pad, only has 4 buttons. To help reuse buttons I used grid, but there simply are not enough buttons after adding in backspace, control, shift, and 3 control groups, which basically constrained me to having only one hokey for an army.
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Ok... weird. I can't imagine him getting above plat with that, but it's a nice novelty.
I mean, did anyone ever play Supreme Commander 2 on the 360? No? That's because it sucked balls. But I imagine that making it like that is how you would make it playable, but it could never be gosu status like that.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Trying to use an xbox controller for SC2 would break my brain.
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Have you played the original sc for n64? You couldn't micro good at all....This would look good for the casualest of casual gamers, that are in like bronze.
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On October 19 2011 09:18 Boblhead wrote:
Have you played the original sc for n64? You couldn't micro good at all....This would look good for the casualest of casual gamers, that are in like bronze.
that seems like a gross over-assumption.
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someone get this guy a mouse and keyboard, intervention style
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My sympathy for this guy is beyond words.
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It's awesome, he's pretty good.
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I'm sure you can do it, but what's the point?
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On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/
Or shudders.
On topic, though, that's pretty masochistic. Whatever floats your boat though.
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well with lots of training i guess its quiet possible to play sc2 with a controller, they kinda have enough buttons now, just need a freaky thumb eye coordination hehe. At some point there is of course a limit reached and the person would probably be better with keyboard and mouse. (mostly because the game was created to use these as controls)
My favorite is still left hand mouse only though. (my mousehand is the right one) And its scary that you can even win that way
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Also remember that if people knew micro was your weak point they could exploit it by being aggressive early on. You kind of get away with it because people are cautious about just barrelling in with early rushes because they assume you can hold it off effectively
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This topic doesn't really have any content... all this is is "Hey gais my friend plays SC2 wit xbox controller!".
Not much to say here. Your friend can keep his "secrets".
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why does he want to keep it a secret? I think thats the most interesting part to this post. Even after watching the stream I'm having trouble imagining how he maps it out.
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lol even though its impressive, there's no way a controller could ever mimic the precision and flexibility offered by the mice and keyboard combo. There's a reason why shooters on consoles are considered a joke.
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I tried watching the VOD I can't bring myself to watch it more than 2 minutes.
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... Not nearly as effective.. and you can see it from his play.
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I used to play the shit out of Red Alert(1,2, and retaliation) on the Playstation, and i love it. But that's probably because thats the only way I had experienced it. I don't think I could ever play SC2 on an xbox controller though, even though I am quite good with the control.
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sc2 has the keybind remapping which allows more standardized controls which makes using a controller with less (but not that much less) buttons work. He's just not fast enough with it, can be similar effectiveness as a keyboard and mouse just from watching him. Can at least get to masters and GM, but win a GSL idk.
The people talking shit about controllers who aren't even as good as this guy should be completely embarassed.
You are the one who limits yourself based on your own perception of how things should be.. The reality is actually different.
Take for example pro players (HuK, etc) using just the mouse to play vs a diamond player and still winning decisively.
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As an aside, Starcraft 64 got me in to SC.. I mean, I was like 12 years old, but still! :D
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I could see it working well enough, the fact he's Diamond is pretty amazing. For what it is, Halo Wars was a great game but SC2 is a whole different beast. Mouse and Keyboard is no question how it hould be played, but it's cool someone can do it well with a gamepad.
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On October 19 2011 08:09 minimalistic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 08:07 Philo wrote:On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/ shudders? SHOCKERS
udders
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On October 19 2011 07:41 Metalreflux wrote:So a good friend of mine has been using an Xbox Controller to play sc2 since its conception. This makes me think that maybe one day SC2 can come to consoles in the near future? Here's the link, check the vods if you think im trolling http://www.justin.tv/sc2cressedit: he plays at a diamond level, and is a very strong macro player.
Does not compute.
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On October 19 2011 10:21 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:41 Metalreflux wrote:So a good friend of mine has been using an Xbox Controller to play sc2 since its conception. This makes me think that maybe one day SC2 can come to consoles in the near future? Here's the link, check the vods if you think im trolling http://www.justin.tv/sc2cressedit: he plays at a diamond level, and is a very strong macro player. Does not compute.
Xbox controller? He probably has masters level macro with keyboard.
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this guy is actually sick with the controller
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This makes no sense, playing computer games with controllers when u have access to keyboard and mouse, that its more easier and precise.
In fact it could be the other way around, you can see why the eagle eyes was born (device that lets you connect keyboard and mouse to xbox/ps3)
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He must have excellent mechanics though, imagine what he could do with more flexible control.
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On October 19 2011 08:10 tadL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2011 07:51 Meteora.GB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... Surprisingly I first got hooked into Starcraft 64, despite how shit the controls were for that game and how slow everything was. Good times. Oh and RTS is historically been not good on consoles because of the lack of controls. You can't possibly play SC2 without dumbing down the controls. Same for Shooters, but in Shooters they get an soft Aimbot and for rts - well something similar. A cheat for PC but for Toys total fair and wanted.
I am pretty sure you can turn off the auto assist in many shooters, I do it sometimes.
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On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/
The troll is strong in this one.
Starcraft with xbox controller?
Kill. Me. Now.
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On October 19 2011 08:09 minimalistic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 08:07 Philo wrote:On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/ shudders? SHOCKERS
Shoppers!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SSHF6.png)
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I couldnt take anything here serious because all the shutters ahahahaha such a funny pic.
I liked starcraft 64 : (
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Playing with a controller actually doesn't seem that bad if I think about it, you have ten buttons (up, down, left, right, back, start, A, B, X, Y), R3+R4 for left/right click, and could multiply your buttons by four by holding down triggers + buttons. Not sure how his mapping is different, but it's basically the same thing as a keyboard, but there's contrast between mouse + joystick.
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Dunno what you mean by shockers, mapping definately is wierd.
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so i'm watching the stream now...
ok nvm he's playing a custom map, the timer thing really threw me off
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On October 19 2011 10:49 ballasdontcry wrote:
so i'm watching the stream now...
he only has such a small army at 34:00? and still on 2 bases? wtf?
is this really diamond league he's playing against? i regularly play plat players that are better than what he's facing. that single viking mineral line harass is really, really cute by his T opponent.
Thinking the same thing. He's probably lying about his league just to get more publicity.
To get that out of my system, I will rewatch the IdrA vs Bomber games from MLG.
/nerdboner
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Been working on some peripherals to help out something like making my drum pedal as a couple extra buttons for the key board or using it for hotkeys. Still working on it though
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On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters.....
I still have nightmares...
Also, remember Halo Wars? That was fucking terrible
But if it works for your friend, than sure, no one's stopping him, rock on.
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On October 19 2011 10:21 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:41 Metalreflux wrote:So a good friend of mine has been using an Xbox Controller to play sc2 since its conception. This makes me think that maybe one day SC2 can come to consoles in the near future? Here's the link, check the vods if you think im trolling http://www.justin.tv/sc2cressedit: he plays at a diamond level, and is a very strong macro player. Does not compute.
along with playing sc2, there are several principles you gotta work on, to become a better player
multitasking
macro
micro
choice-making
he has multitasking and macro down, and you learn choice-making kind of, as you rank up in the ladder. and micro is something people can always work on, so if you saw these 4 principles as bars on a graph, his macro would be his highest attribute. the rest just kind of... get worked on.
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how does this work??? how do u micro?
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it will never go on consoles and i would never want it on consoles. people need to stop making these hope threads.
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seeing people play fps on a pad makes me facepalm, but this easily tops it. BECAUSE HE SITS AT A COMPUTER SO HE NEEDS KEYBOARD AND MOUSE ANYWAYS.....
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funny thing is that starcraft for the N64 had the same dulled down mechanics that we see in sc2 now LOL ~____~
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On October 19 2011 10:35 Steak_ wrote:
Playing with a controller actually doesn't seem that bad if I think about it, you have ten buttons (up, down, left, right, back, start, A, B, X, Y), R3+R4 for left/right click, and could multiply your buttons by four by holding down triggers + buttons. Not sure how his mapping is different, but it's basically the same thing as a keyboard, but there's contrast between mouse + joystick.
People love to be ignorant trolls. Its the way of the internet, and has been between the computer and console communities for ages. They don't realize that keyboard and mouse are the objects we use today. It could be changed completely and people would still be able to adapt and perform at high levels eventually. It's warming up to the new way of playing and not limiting yourself to this "fake reality" they've made for themselves.
It seems like this whole argument between controller and keyboard/mouse is just a pride thing anyway.
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Its different, but I love my keyboard and mouse soo much. To each there own.
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On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters
What's so bad about shooters on console?
I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games.
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That is pretty cool man. I'll never do it, but still pretty cool.
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Whatever he feels comfortable with, I guess.
I think I saw a video and some photos of a guy who competed at an MLG with a stylus and pad, and actually doing surprisingly decent despite his supposed controller handicap.
I'm sure there are even a few people out there who use ball mice:
![[image loading]](http://www.fentek-ind.com/images/MLOTMW.jpg)
Granted, they're probably being handicaped by it, but I guess there is a certain fun/novelty factor to playing with exotic controls.
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Canada11471 Posts
How big exactly is his screen that it doesn't fit on his desk? Because personally I find that while big screens are nice, once the screen it's pushing too much into my periphery, I find it rather uncomfortable as I can't view the whole screen at once.
Forgive my ignorance, but exactly how does the building hotkeys, army hotkeys, and unit hotkeys work as I don't see how you get so much utility out of so few buttons... although 'e' is for everything.
Personally I can't stand controllers as my thumb control is awful compared to my left-right mouse button skills. Can you do the sort of old-school muta, or vulture micro with this sort of set-up? (Not the specifics, but more the high speed attack retreat that sky rockets your apm.) Although fun for a console gamer, it seems more of a limitation.
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Universe at War allowed for PC players to play vs Xbox players. Hilarity ensued. :D
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As impressive as this guy manages to make the best use of the controller (with a clever hotkey/macro setup, his macro was actually half decent for his level), it was still painful to watch.
His FF "micro" was so inefficient and slow that even though he was watching and controlling his zealot/sentry army the whole time, the FFs were still placed AFTER speedlings have left his ramp.
Painful... Just painful...
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I think if you're looking at the PC vs console debate you have to look at shooters. There's a large competitive scene for both PC shooters and console shooters, and its pretty universally acknowledged that mouse and keyboard allows for more control - to the point that some games released on both are balanced differently (snipers nerfed on PC). Despite this there's still a big competive scene on consoles, 'cause if everyone's playing at the same difficulty its all even.
So playing with a controller is almost certainly a handicap, but unless you're playing at a competitive level who really cares. Sure you may be a bit lower on the ladder from where you could be if you used a mouse/keyboard, but that's really not important.
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On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games.
console shooters are far easier than PC shooters.. comparing getting a random kill in a DM server to getting a kill in halo is just plain dumb.. almost every gun in cs can kill in 1 hit with a headshot.. and any random noob can get a lucky headshot
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where in the vods show this isn't just a troll? until proof, i say this is fake.
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Sure he's pretty good and can get into diamond with the controller, maybe even masters if he keeps trying hard, but that doesn't mean it's a viable option. I'm sure someone could get into masters just using the mouse if he tried hard enough, but obviously using a keyboard will make you better.
I remember Day[9] said once he had a friend who got up to D+ or C- on iccup just using a mouse, and when he finally convinced him to use a keyboard he quickly shot up to C or C+. It's a silly self-restricting handicap that only sets you back.
On October 19 2011 12:38 Sanchonator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. console shooters are far easier than PC shooters.. comparing getting a random kill in a DM server to getting a kill in halo is just plain dumb.. almost every gun in cs can kill in 1 hit with a headshot.. and any random noob can get a lucky headshot
I'd like to see Doko try to get even one random lucky kill on a top level Quake pro. He would probably die thousands of times before you could get one lucky kill, regardless of weapons. There is a reason that every quakecon Fatal1ty has a small event where anyone who can kill him once gets a free Fatal1ty line headset, and only ends up giving out a couple of them.
Compare that to Halo 2 or Halo 1, any noob can throw a lucky grenade, or maybe pick up the rocket launcher and get a kill or two in a game to 25.
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People are seriously arguing that a controller can ACTUALLY compete with a keyboard + mouse? And bringing up fps games makes that even less understandable.
Personally, I'm a pretty good css player (cal-i, esea-i, etc.) and at a recent lan in vancouver, had the opportunity to watch "top level" halo and black ops players (360.) After watching them, I can confidently say that even though I've only played halo a few times in my life, if I had a chance to learn the maps for a day or 2 and was were given a mouse, I would easily compete with those players (and most likely win.) Anyone who's ever been semi-decent at a pc shooter would never argue with that. Watching console shooters looks soooo slow, I can't stand it.
On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:
I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games.
The only reason it's going to be harder to get a lucky kill on a halo pro is because it takes like 3x as many shots to kill someone. That's also why cs matches are 5v5. No 5 new players will EVER beat a team of 5 good players.
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On October 19 2011 11:56 eviltomahawk wrote:Whatever he feels comfortable with, I guess. I think I saw a video and some photos of a guy who competed at an MLG with a stylus and pad, and actually doing surprisingly decent despite his supposed controller handicap. I'm sure there are even a few people out there who use ball mice: Granted, they're probably being handicaped by it, but I guess there is a certain fun/novelty factor to playing with exotic controls.
Cyrax supposedly played with a trackball back in the day.
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Shit, why is he still using his controller if he's in diamond? He'd easily get to mid masters if he switched to keyboard/mouse.
Pretty cool vid tho. I wouldn't get past gold if i tried to use a controller, lol.
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Bangladesh2839 Posts
On October 19 2011 12:46 ODieN wrote:
where in the vods show this isn't just a troll? until proof, i say this is fake.
Look at his pointer movements. its pretty obvious.
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On October 19 2011 08:04 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 07:51 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 19 2011 07:45 Outsited wrote:
starcraft 1 came to consoles .... shutters..... .... shutters..... He problaby meant shivers :/
*Shudders
On October 19 2011 11:56 eviltomahawk wrote:Whatever he feels comfortable with, I guess. I think I saw a video and some photos of a guy who competed at an MLG with a stylus and pad, and actually doing surprisingly decent despite his supposed controller handicap. I'm sure there are even a few people out there who use ball mice: Granted, they're probably being handicaped by it, but I guess there is a certain fun/novelty factor to playing with exotic controls.
with the way the reflection off the ball looks, I thought it was a HUGE scroll wheel at first XD
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Games like RTS's and MMO's should stay on the PC I would hate a world where RTS games were built on the console and then ported onto the PC...
I mean that has already happened with FPS games...so we aren't that far off.
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The only reason it's going to be harder to get a lucky kill on a halo pro is because it takes like 3x as many shots to kill someone. That's also why cs matches are 5v5. No 5 new players will EVER beat a team of 5 good players.
I don't think in any game in the history of the world would a new team of players will ever beat a team of good players.
Also lol at using a controller for Starcraft 2, although I'll give him props. I'm gonna bust out my joystick and play some FPS :D
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I want a copy of Starcraft 64.
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Like playing hockey with a golf club.
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On October 19 2011 12:38 Sanchonator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. console shooters are far easier than PC shooters.. comparing getting a random kill in a DM server to getting a kill in halo is just plain dumb.. almost every gun in cs can kill in 1 hit with a headshot.. and any random noob can get a lucky headshot
Which is indeed exactly my point. In counter strike every noob can hit a lucky headshot, in Halo1 and 2 you wouldn't even hit a single shot as a complete newbie. Controlling a game with a controller instead of M&K is alot harder and takes longer to learn. Of course Halo3 and Reach have been dumbed down so that 1 lucky nade can earn you a kill. But in Halo1 or 2 you could play the game for an entire year and the good 1v1 players would still smoke you 15:0 with absolute ease. I was semi-decent at both games and got to play pros every now and then in matchmaking (ladder) and even though we were a pretty decent team MLG teams like carbon destroyed us 50:10 or 50:20 on our own host and there were teams that we beat 50:5. What I'm trying to say is, that in these two halo games the skill gap was HUGE far greater than in any PC shooter. Look at the german counterstrike EPS where the top teams lose like 6-10 round to lower tier teams because of bad luck. sure they win in the end, but it's not as decisively as a top halo1 or halo2 team would win.
Halo2 was probably the most consistant esport game ever, top teams were top teams and unbeatable for worse teams, there was no luck factor (there even is a luck factor in sc2 which results in better players losing sometimes), in Halo2 1 team dominated MLG for an entire year, simply untouched and even in europe we had a team that dominated the european scene. all this changed when Halo3 came out, because it made things easier for noobs to get kills. so yeah halo3 and reach are a disgrace, but halo1 or halo2 for that matter take more skill and were more consistent esport games than any other shooter because the better team won 100% of the time.
edit: And to anyone who says that MK players are much better than players with controllers. I play Halo2 on Vista quite frequently on the PC with a controller against people with MK and in nearly 90% of my games I end up with a kill/death ratio of 200 kills to 5 deaths or something silly like that and I was good in halo2 but I was far from being one of the best (lvl40 team hardcore if anyone played the game and also played some international tournaments but MLG pros were 3 time better than me) an MLG pro would probably go 200:0 against these great PC gamers. I mean seriously I played about 500 games on H2 Vista and how come that I never met a single MK player that was actually semi-decent?Some of them even said they have a counter strike background which made things even more disappointing).
So no, I don't buy that whole "i could rape everyone on halo with MK" thing, from my own experience I can tell that MK players are actually god awful at Halo.
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In the great words of one DJwheat...."Heathen input device"
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obviously wouldn't work at the highest level.
but i'm impressed, he's pretty damn accurate with his controller.
also he looks so chill just laying on his chair playing. looks like he's having a lot of fun.
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i didnt know starcraft3 was already out.
now on a serious note, how does that even work, would be nice to see a schematic of an xbox controller and what does what.
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yeah, after watching the vods its pretty obvious that he is heavily reliant on control groups and a-moving. Because he cant rapidly box select in battles his units stay in ball formation. There isn't much stim and spread, splitting, or pull back of weak units. Defiantly and an amazing feat though.
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On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games.
Pubkills/random scrims != pro level
Try being in the top 0.5% of all cs players, and then take on a top tier team, you will lose 0-1:15 every time.
The margin for error is much lower, the reactions must be sharper and thus the teamwork that much tighter.
cs vs Halo is like sc2 vs Pikmin
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There's a reason Microsoft prevented cross-platform PC/console online gaming, and it's not because controllers are superior. Love consoles too, but I'm just saying...
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On October 19 2011 15:30 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. Pubkills/random scrims != pro level Try being in the top 0.5% of all cs players, and then take on a top tier team, you will lose 0-1:15 every time. The margin for error is much lower, the reactions must be sharper and thus the teamwork that much tighter. cs vs Halo is like sc2 vs Pikmin
And I can guarantee you that you won't get a single kill against a top halo1 or 2 team even after 1 year of practise. It's so much harder to get kills in H1 or H2 compared to Counterstrike. In CS worse teams can win like 4-5 lucky rounds unless they are alot worse than the other team. In Halo1 or Halo2 you will get absolutely demolished if you are slightly worse than the team you are up against.
yes if you compare halo to cs its like comparing sc2 to pikmin, just that halo would be sc2 and cs would be pikmin
I have played both games, so trust me I know what I'm talking about (unlike you).
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On October 19 2011 15:34 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 15:30 Scrimpton wrote:On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. Pubkills/random scrims != pro level Try being in the top 0.5% of all cs players, and then take on a top tier team, you will lose 0-1:15 every time. The margin for error is much lower, the reactions must be sharper and thus the teamwork that much tighter. cs vs Halo is like sc2 vs Pikmin And I can guarantee you that you won't get a single kill against a top halo1 or 2 team even after 1 year of practise. It's so much harder to get kills in H1 or H2 compared to Counterstrike. In CS worse teams can win like 4-5 lucky rounds unless they are alot worse than the other team. In Halo1 or Halo2 you will get absolutely demolished if you are slightly worse than the team you are up against. yes if you compare halo to cs its like comparing sc2 to pikmin, just that halo would be sc2 and cs would be pikmin I have played both games, so trust me I know what I'm talking about (unlike you).
So being unkillable and having regen health makes a game MORE hardcore/competetive..?
Okay there son, time for bed!
A bit derailed now though, if you want to flame me or continue on this discussion go to PM, hopefully no damage done to the thread!
Saw a vod of OP and it's sort of.. heartwarming
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On October 19 2011 09:07 Conquerer67 wrote:Ok... weird. I can't imagine him getting above plat with that, but it's a nice novelty. I mean, did anyone ever play Supreme Commander 2 on the 360? No? That's because it sucked balls. But I imagine that making it like that is how you would make it playable, but it could never be gosu status like that. + Show Spoiler +
Strangely enough he's in masters. I skipped through a few games.. and I can't explain how. But he is!
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On October 19 2011 15:37 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 15:34 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 15:30 Scrimpton wrote:On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. Pubkills/random scrims != pro level Try being in the top 0.5% of all cs players, and then take on a top tier team, you will lose 0-1:15 every time. The margin for error is much lower, the reactions must be sharper and thus the teamwork that much tighter. cs vs Halo is like sc2 vs Pikmin And I can guarantee you that you won't get a single kill against a top halo1 or 2 team even after 1 year of practise. It's so much harder to get kills in H1 or H2 compared to Counterstrike. In CS worse teams can win like 4-5 lucky rounds unless they are alot worse than the other team. In Halo1 or Halo2 you will get absolutely demolished if you are slightly worse than the team you are up against. yes if you compare halo to cs its like comparing sc2 to pikmin, just that halo would be sc2 and cs would be pikmin I have played both games, so trust me I know what I'm talking about (unlike you). So being unkillable and having regen health makes a game MORE hardcore/competetive..? Okay there son, time for bed! A bit derailed now though, if you want to flame me or continue on this discussion go to PM, hopefully no damage done to the thread! Saw a vod of OP and it's sort of.. heartwarming
you are not unkillable at all lol, the kill times with the br in halo2 was like 1,2 seconds or something for a 4shot. health regen was only relevant once you won a battle, it actually gave the better player more chances to win individual battles, which actually increases individual skill compared to games like counter strike.
And I don't see why health regen would make any game less competitive, it gives the better player more chances to beat their opponent... but let me guess getting a lucky kill with a burstfire headshot is more skillful and make a game more competitive? yeah i guess it's really time to go to bed for you.
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On October 19 2011 11:45 isleyofthenorth wrote:
seeing people play fps on a pad makes me facepalm, but this easily tops it. BECAUSE HE SITS AT A COMPUTER SO HE NEEDS KEYBOARD AND MOUSE ANYWAYS.....
It's all fun and games bro
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
I find it fascinating how he plays at a decent level with a Xbox Controller! Its very good, diamond level nice macro. I just don't get how you can use the build functions and hotkeys properly its crazy! Good luck none the less
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On October 19 2011 15:30 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. Pubkills/random scrims != pro level Try being in the top 0.5% of all cs players, and then take on a top tier team, you will lose 0-1:15 every time. The margin for error is much lower, the reactions must be sharper and thus the teamwork that much tighter. cs vs Halo is like sc2 vs Pikmin
Quake vs CS is like Mushihimesama Futari Black Label vs Hello kitty island adventure
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FINALLY A MYTH CONFIRMED
+ Show Spoiler +that protoss is the easiest race to play...... 
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Netherlands19138 Posts
Get back on topic please. Derailments after this post will be met with moderation.
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Uhh... how does he assign/use his hotkeys? o.o
Sorry haven't seen the stream.
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all i have to say is...LOL
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On October 19 2011 07:59 motumbo wrote:
That is sick. I tried playing Halo Wars and got pissed of because I could not get anything done with a controller. I would be bronze level if I tried to use a controller.
halowars was really intuitive with its control system. of course it wasn't up to par with a mouse and keyboard, but the biggest thing hindering your micro at halowars was not the controller but the pathfinding (damn ensemble and their shitty formation pathfinding).
using a controller does not stop micro, it just makes it harder and requires much much more practice to do properly. but it is do-able.
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That guy is the supreme master of the Xbox 360 controller. I wouldn't want to go through that torture.
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That's pretty cool Lol. Personally i prefer the PC, Mouse, Keyboard setup than console for FPS or RTS. I feel there is better accuracy on mouse and ish moar fun to push keys than console buttons :3
Kind of interesting, how do the hotkeys work?
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Always interesting to see people playing in different ways, I've considered trying this in the past for shits and giggles...
Wonder how high he can get in the ladders?
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wow... that is absolutely Crazy! he must have a lot of practice controlling a cursor with an analog stick because that seriously a great achievement to be able to play SC2.
He gets huge props from me.
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On October 19 2011 15:44 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 15:37 Scrimpton wrote:On October 19 2011 15:34 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 15:30 Scrimpton wrote:On October 19 2011 11:53 doko100 wrote:On October 19 2011 08:12 Vaelone wrote:
I think the only RTS I've tried on console was Red Alert on PS1.
Never again for me.
But hey they already play FPS games seriously on consoles so why not RTS while at it? Before you even notice the SC2 pro scene will be playing on consoles instead of PC's.
shockershuddershiversshutters What's so bad about shooters on console? I played alot of shooters on both PC (CS 1.6, CSS, UT) and Console and from my experience Halo1 and Halo2 were the most individually skillful FPS games of them all. The skill gap in these two games was huge and it was basically impossible for a noob to even kill a semi-decent player nevermind a pro. Even noobs could get lucky kills on pros in CS 1.6 deathmatch. of course halo3 and reach are a totally different story because the games were dumbed down like hell to be more appealing to casual players. But point still is that console FPS are very skillful and not comparable to console RTS games. Pubkills/random scrims != pro level Try being in the top 0.5% of all cs players, and then take on a top tier team, you will lose 0-1:15 every time. The margin for error is much lower, the reactions must be sharper and thus the teamwork that much tighter. cs vs Halo is like sc2 vs Pikmin And I can guarantee you that you won't get a single kill against a top halo1 or 2 team even after 1 year of practise. It's so much harder to get kills in H1 or H2 compared to Counterstrike. In CS worse teams can win like 4-5 lucky rounds unless they are alot worse than the other team. In Halo1 or Halo2 you will get absolutely demolished if you are slightly worse than the team you are up against. yes if you compare halo to cs its like comparing sc2 to pikmin, just that halo would be sc2 and cs would be pikmin I have played both games, so trust me I know what I'm talking about (unlike you). So being unkillable and having regen health makes a game MORE hardcore/competetive..? Okay there son, time for bed! A bit derailed now though, if you want to flame me or continue on this discussion go to PM, hopefully no damage done to the thread! Saw a vod of OP and it's sort of.. heartwarming you are not unkillable at all lol, the kill times with the br in halo2 was like 1,2 seconds or something for a 4shot. health regen was only relevant once you won a battle, it actually gave the better player more chances to win individual battles, which actually increases individual skill compared to games like counter strike. And I don't see why health regen would make any game less competitive, it gives the better player more chances to beat their opponent... but let me guess getting a lucky kill with a burstfire headshot is more skillful and make a game more competitive? yeah i guess it's really time to go to bed for you.
Anyone can 4 shot on xbox, it isn't difficult. Even if you only have a 10% chance to hit that 4 shot then that's still 1:10. I played both Counterstrike and Halo (in halo 2 I got high enough where basically every game would be a modder, so I got tired of playing and stopped, I think it was mid-30s somewhere) as well and honestly they are about the same difficulty. Try a 1v1 in Quake however, and that's a whole different story. With much faster movement (which you need to be good to pull off smoothly already) guns that don't 1 shot ( so you need really good aim) and a bunch of powerups on the map (like +shield and +hp that the better player will have control of the whole game) it is much, MUCH harder to score a random kill than in halo OR counterstrike. When I played (and I was pretty damn bad) most of my games would be completely one-sided for me or the other person, since I played for map control and my aim was pretty abysmal, so I would survive long enough and get enough powerups to just wear the other guy down eventually.
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I have an adapter for an N64 to USB... maybe I should break it out for SC64 2?
I don't even like playing Xbox games with the xbox controller... it's just so clunky. I would really like to see how someone does this efficiently though.
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101 buttons on keyboard, 6400+ dpi for mice now
I don't think there is any advantage. Also a larger monitor is not an advantage either.
Anyways if you want to do it just for the challenge, anyone can easily do so. No reason to try to make a console version. It is not like the 90's where a gaming computer cost 10 times as much as a gaming console and computer monitors and televisions were two different devices.
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On October 19 2011 22:37 Najda wrote:
Anyone can 4 shot on xbox, it isn't difficult. Even if you only have a 10% chance to hit that 4 shot then that's still 1:10. I played both Counterstrike and Halo (in halo 2 I got high enough where basically every game would be a modder, so I got tired of playing and stopped, I think it was mid-30s somewhere) as well and honestly they are about the same difficulty. Try a 1v1 in Quake however, and that's a whole different story. With much faster movement (which you need to be good to pull off smoothly already) guns that don't 1 shot ( so you need really good aim) and a bunch of powerups on the map (like +shield and +hp that the better player will have control of the whole game) it is much, MUCH harder to score a random kill than in halo OR counterstrike. When I played (and I was pretty damn bad) most of my games would be completely one-sided for me or the other person, since I played for map control and my aim was pretty abysmal, so I would survive long enough and get enough powerups to just wear the other guy down eventually.
Mid 30s is not high in halo 2... argument nullified.
Doing anything consistently at the PRO level is difficult. If you aren't pro you will think everything is simple until you've understood what it actually takes to be pro.
4 shotting a halo 2 level 30 is terribly easy. 4 shotting walshy, victory x, etc is a different story and good luck with that one.
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I played Walshy a few times in Halo 3 with a few of his friends. While I didn't find him that special (he was solid though), his team had kind of insane teamwork and cooperation and that in itself made the game infinitely harder than a standard game.
But back to the point of the poster above me, there were a lot of things high level people did to take advantage of the fact that you don't style instantly. Call it what you want, but I don't necessarily think this is inherently "easier." The game just emphasized different aspects of gameplay more than others. All FPS games involve twitch reflexes, coordination, map control, strategies, timing, etc. Just because you don't die instantly doesn't mean it's a dumbed down game.
There are a lot of things you can experiment with because of things like regen and dying in 4 shots. For example you can turn your back to ensure you don't get headshotted while you take cover or get help from a teammate, when walking in the open you can have teammates take fire for the more wounded ones in order to increase survivability, you can use tricks like grenade jumping to actually turn it into kills (maybe not done at the pro level, but it can be used in sticky situations).
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This makes me think of exploring Starcraft RPG's on console! Imagine a Raynor/Kerrigan/Zeratul rpg xD
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On October 20 2011 06:58 CookieMaker wrote:
This makes me think of exploring Starcraft RPG's on console! Imagine a Raynor/Kerrigan/Zeratul rpg xD
They tried it awhile back, project was canceled or put on hold.
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I have a guest pass available and a very programmable Logitech F310 controller, I played my first game and got CRUSHED. I think I have a decent setup, but the learning curve is MUCH steeper than I had thought.
Setup:
Right stick - mouse control, set to 50% acceleration (tested various %s and 50% seems to be the best).
Left top button (where my left index finger presses) - left click
Right top button - right click
Left bottom button (left middle finger) - "A" key
Right bottom button - "H" key
Left D-pad (8 directions, top, top right, right, bottom right, etc.) - control groups 1-8
Left stick (4 directions) - "S", "E", "X", "D"
ABXY buttons on the right hand side - "B", "V", "C", "F"
Left stick click - "F1"
Right stick click - "F2"
Back button - "F3"
Start button - "F4"
And that's all the keys available on the controller, I feel maybe I should only have 4 control groups and free up the D-pad for more location F keys, since scrolling is really difficult. Also, another possibility is to bind the left stick to the arrow keys, so I can pan the camera more easily but that would take up 4 hotkey spots.
Man, why I am putting myself through this experiment I do not know... I could have played 20x better with mouse only. Anyway, any suggestions to a good control key setup would be appreciated
Edit: typo
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Your friend looks like a young David Bowie, otherwise I'm sure you could play at a high level on a controller but there will always be a skill cap for both mice/keyboard and controller options, and I see the traditional being the higher cap.
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The best setup AFAIK is to have the sticks be ctrl/alt so that when you have them pushed, you get different commands. Then you would want to use gridhotkeys...
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On November 09 2011 10:54 StuBob wrote:
The best setup AFAIK is to have the sticks be ctrl/alt so that when you have them pushed, you get different commands. Then you would want to use gridhotkeys...
The thought of doing this made my head hurt a little bit. I could never get used to a controller for a game that requires more than 8 buttons to be pushed :p
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The whole awesomeness of sc2 and rts's in general are the use of the keyboard. (I might be a retard and not realize that you mentionned that your friend uses a keyboard). Using a plain-old console joystick to micro is just ridiculously silly and the game changes completely for the worst. Totally disagree with this idea. Keyboards ftw.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://vixenhill.com/Merchant2/graphics/Text_Shutters.jpg)
