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Is it okay to say extreme stuff over game? - Page 18

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awu25
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 22:54:15
September 26 2011 22:53 GMT
#341
You clearly have never seen pro sports players trash talk each other, throw punches, etc. Spades would never think about doing that shit in person and I don't think anyone ever will. People say whatever they want behind their computers, can't believe you actually think it's a "threat"

Anyways, I would like to see Hwangsin kick his ass in the game at MLG
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
September 26 2011 23:07 GMT
#342
These guys are jokes and not pro's at all. The amount of supposed 'professionals' that have turned up in the SC2 scene is laughable. I hate the over-emphasis on foreign scene now, foreign scene total nobodies as well with probably like 1000 people better than them on kr ladder.
Forumite
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden3280 Posts
September 26 2011 23:08 GMT
#343
The problem is that this kind of talk is the norm for casual gamers, and so it just sticks with you when you go professional. The behavior as an anonymous gamer on the net just doesn´t go well with spectator sports. If you´ve always teabagged the dead corpses of your enemy, then it gets a bit awkward when presented with a cup of hot water.

The solution? They just need to learns some manners.
:3
Forumite
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden3280 Posts
September 26 2011 23:36 GMT
#344
Doesn´t the Korean tournament disqualify players for BM? If the NASL gave a loss to anyone being threatening or insulting in the chat, then they´d stop it.
:3
Arkless
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1547 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-27 01:05:01
September 27 2011 01:02 GMT
#345
There is shit talking in all sports period. It's apart of it, plenty of it is in public. Do you see Mayweather or Soennen losing sponsors coz they talk mad shit? Dennis Rodman was known as a massive shit talker, think he lost sponsors?

No

There will always be shit talk, it doesn't deter people. Infact, drama of any type draws more in. Not that I agree with WHAT WAS SAID.


PS: This thread, is a form of shit talking, by extending the shit talk session with a screenshot. Let's be honest, Spades is a real person, who gets angry like us all. (Once again, not that I agree with WHAT WAS SAID) But haven't we all said some shit out of anger that we shouldn't have or regret?

Yes

On September 25 2011 17:13 RuMCaKe wrote:
I have spoken with Spades, and as the manager of ItsGoSu, and a friend of RGN, and Spades as well. I know this is just a misunderstanding. Tempers flared, some wrong things were said, it happens. No hard feelings on our end, and I hope that people can let it go. People make mistakes, I know I sure do, and I am sure everyone else here does as well. No hard feelings!

Spades, lets have a beer at Orlando

It had already been dealt with, appologized, and moved on by both parties. I am confused as to why this thread even exsists? Just to pour salt on a wound? This seems kinda petty IMO and a mod should just close this.
http://www.mixcloud.com/Arkless/ http://www.soundcloud.com/Arkless
Sovern
Profile Joined March 2011
United States312 Posts
September 27 2011 01:06 GMT
#346
How is this even a big deal? There's much more important things in the world to worry about than someone getting passed off and raging over a lose. The majority of gamers get angry when they lose big deal.
Soulish
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1403 Posts
September 27 2011 01:16 GMT
#347
this thread exists because bonkerz is bonkers
me all in, he drone drone drone, me win
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-27 01:24:10
September 27 2011 01:20 GMT
#348
RGNSpades shameful example portraying us foreigners to a Korean player like hwangsin.
Can't believe he stooped low enough to racist remarks and saying he'd assault him at MLG etc..

It'sGosu has cheesy players like Hwangsin Wbc and Gatored.. but still no reason to rage like that the guys got issues.

I'd put money on Hwangsin over Spaddles any day...
Never GG MKP | IdrA
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
September 27 2011 01:52 GMT
#349
HwangSin, that was a mature response you issued.

On September 26 2011 12:48 harhar! wrote:
i dont see whats wrong with a little bm and racism. i mwan he obviously doesnt mean it, so who cares...


I hope this is sarcasm from harhar!. And if it is sarcasm, I don't find it funny. I have followed and refrained from posting in this thread but it's comments like these that push me over the edge.

In the context of the United States, racism has been institutionalized. We still witness structural disadvantages for minority groups, including women, who, despite "equality between the sexes" earn less than men for doing the same jobs. Racism isn't just about the language we use. It's about the history of disenfranchisement and the many methods that dominant groups belittle, oppress, and repress marginalized groups.

In the contemporary moment, one of the primary ways that racism functions is through the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. These stereotypes are routinely delivered in the form, "I'm not racist, but...". The "but" is followed by an outright racist sentiment or stereotype. Here's link to the work of these sociologists on the "I'm not racist, but" phenomenon: http://www.sociology.emory.edu/downloads/bonilla-silva_forman_2000_i\'m_not_a_racist_but.pdf

In Spades case, he wrote an outright racial slur. I understand the "heat of the moment" argument. I understand the "people shit talk in sports" argument. It happens. So apologies are in order. I am all for these situation being resolved through apology. But it is a radicalized comment. It can't simply be excused because of the context or because of some people want to ignore the racial content.

Furthermore, in SCII, we are dealing with the phenomenon of the written word. Shit TALK goes in one ear and out the other to the extent that it is not recorded. With SCII, shit talk is often WRITTEN and the shit talker leaves behind a written record.

Imo, this written record only increases the burden on pros to be professional and to recognize the magnitude of the heat of the moment.

As hate crime legislation continues to develop in the United States, we see a greater emphasis on taking people's motivations into account when they commit violent crimes. These motivations are measured, in part, by evidence of their racist tendencies.Take, for instance, the recent branding of a Navajo man in New Mexico, and the running-over of a black man in Mississippi. Both of these crimes were committed by white men/adolescents. Both of these are being prosecuted as hate crimes, and in both cases, the authorities have looked to the past of the assailants to gauge their racist tendencies. In doing so, they LOOK AT THE WORDS THAT PEOPLE USE as evidence of their capacity to commit a hate crime.

tl;dr The fact the Spades would threaten violence and use a racial slur in the heat of the moment pushes a button that is not limited to sports and the SCII world. Rather, violence and racism are part of the pulse of the contemporary American attempt to re-evaluate crimes with regard to the level of racist-pre-meditation. Verbal threats and racial slurs begin to establish one as having the capacity to commit a hate crime. This isn't simply me being sensitive. This is the direction of U.S. law in the contemporary moment.
Mercurial#1193
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
September 27 2011 01:58 GMT
#350
On September 27 2011 07:53 awu25 wrote:
You clearly have never seen pro sports players trash talk each other, throw punches, etc. Spades would never think about doing that shit in person and I don't think anyone ever will. People say whatever they want behind their computers, can't believe you actually think it's a "threat"

Anyways, I would like to see Hwangsin kick his ass in the game at MLG


That's precisely the problem. SCII pros are facing a new standard to the extent that the game is played on a larger and increasingly public stage, and to the extent that written in-game/chat messages leave a trail of evidence behind. In other words, the technology of SCII partially demands a reevaluation of the potential effects of shit talk to the extent that the community often has access to chat material...especially when it is uttered in a public forum.

Yes, shit-talk will continue. But the quality of the shit talk--racist vs non-racist--and the extent to which violent threats are uttered--are going to keep pushing buttons.

tl;dr If SCII continues to maintain its current popularity or to grow larger, I don't think this excuse--they are just raging behind their computers--will remain legitimate. We are seeing this very mentality challenged and the burden of the professional, imo, is to recognize that they can't hold onto such an immature way of thinking. Shit talk, but realize that, to the extent it is being recorded, you are likely going to be held responsible the morning after.
Mercurial#1193
harhar!
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany190 Posts
September 27 2011 22:22 GMT
#351
On September 27 2011 07:50 jmbnm wrote:

Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 12:48 harhar! wrote:
i dont see whats wrong with a little bm and racism. i mwan he obviously doesnt mean it, so who cares...


Ok, whatever, you Jew-killing Nazi. Hope you're not offended, because I don't really mean it. Nazi.


i dont get the point you are trying to make. of course im not offended.

why is there so much drama over some words said in an onlinegame? they dont harm anyone.
iloveAthene
Profile Joined June 2011
186 Posts
September 27 2011 23:48 GMT
#352
On September 28 2011 07:22 harhar! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2011 07:50 jmbnm wrote:

On September 26 2011 12:48 harhar! wrote:
i dont see whats wrong with a little bm and racism. i mwan he obviously doesnt mean it, so who cares...


Ok, whatever, you Jew-killing Nazi. Hope you're not offended, because I don't really mean it. Nazi.


i dont get the point you are trying to make. of course im not offended.

why is there so much drama over some words said in an onlinegame? they dont harm anyone.


Then do certain words harm anyone outside of games in real life? If not why is it illegal to deny the holocaust in Germany? thats just words too
HTODethklok
Profile Joined November 2010
United States221 Posts
September 28 2011 00:07 GMT
#353
Its funny that Esports seem to be the only sports where manners are regarded so highly. Click the spoiler for a look at some of sports biggest trash talkers.


+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/sports_100/148_fitness_list.html
#10 Mike Tyson
#9 Deion Sanders
#8 Juan Pablo Montoya
#7 Charles Barkley
#6 Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
#5 Gary Payton
#4 Shannon Sharpe
#3 Larry Bird
#2 Michael Jordan
#1 Muhammad Ali


Michael Jordan
In the ‘80s and ‘90s, trash talking was high art, and Michael Jordan was the king of the castle. In a game against the Denver Nuggets, Jordan stepped to the foul line and told rookie Dikembe Mutombo that he would shoot the free throw with his eyes closed. Before he did, he looked at Mutombo and said, “This one’s for you.” Then he closed his eyes, hit the shot and told Mutombo, “Welcome to the NBA.”

Throughout his career, Jordan craved a psychological edge, and trash talking helped him see opponents as potential victims that he could demoralize by winning both the game and the war of words. Most importantly, there was always a purpose to Jordan’s trash talking, as if predicting something was the catalyst he needed to just do it. The most humbling part for opponents must have been the trash-talking aftermath, when Jordan would get in his defender’s face with a big grin and recap the great move he had just made at their expense.


Trash talking is just a part of being competitive and playing mind games with your opponent or letting out some aggression. Its worse on the internet because your opponent isnt standing right in front of you. If you dont like it its probably best to just ignore it also you should feel lucky at least in starcraft you can block communication with your opponent I bet some of Michael Jordans opponents wished they had that luxury lol.
Guns for show... Knives for a pro HTODethklok.201 NA
harhar!
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany190 Posts
September 28 2011 01:15 GMT
#354
On September 28 2011 08:48 iloveAthene wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 07:22 harhar! wrote:
On September 27 2011 07:50 jmbnm wrote:

On September 26 2011 12:48 harhar! wrote:
i dont see whats wrong with a little bm and racism. i mwan he obviously doesnt mean it, so who cares...


Ok, whatever, you Jew-killing Nazi. Hope you're not offended, because I don't really mean it. Nazi.


i dont get the point you are trying to make. of course im not offended.

why is there so much drama over some words said in an onlinegame? they dont harm anyone.


Then do certain words harm anyone outside of games in real life? If not why is it illegal to deny the holocaust in Germany? thats just words too


denying holocaust is illegal for rather "practical" reasons. the neonazis in germany are denying it because they want to picture the jews as liars, rehabilitate the national socialism by trivializing it and a couple of other reasons, which you can surely find on wikipedia.
so i can understand why they are banning it, even though it hurts the freedom of speech. i think in theory everyone should be able to say whatever he likes because if you start banning certain ideologies, its hard to tell when you are damaging democracy itself.

but this is the internet we are talking about. who really gives a shit if he gets bmed on ladder? im sure spades will apologize and everything will be fine, so why the drama?
Witten
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2094 Posts
September 28 2011 01:39 GMT
#355
It's fine to BM if you want to. It's in your first amendment rights. However, it is in our rights to look at Spades language and lose respect for him.

Just because Hwangsin beat you doesn't mean you should call him a gook.
Brood War Forever / NA's premiere Shadow Shaman player / Courier Collector / Bot Game Champion / Highly amateur Mystical Ninja Goemon Speedrunner
iloveAthene
Profile Joined June 2011
186 Posts
September 28 2011 02:19 GMT
#356
On September 28 2011 10:15 harhar! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 08:48 iloveAthene wrote:
On September 28 2011 07:22 harhar! wrote:
On September 27 2011 07:50 jmbnm wrote:

On September 26 2011 12:48 harhar! wrote:
i dont see whats wrong with a little bm and racism. i mwan he obviously doesnt mean it, so who cares...


Ok, whatever, you Jew-killing Nazi. Hope you're not offended, because I don't really mean it. Nazi.


i dont get the point you are trying to make. of course im not offended.

why is there so much drama over some words said in an onlinegame? they dont harm anyone.


Then do certain words harm anyone outside of games in real life? If not why is it illegal to deny the holocaust in Germany? thats just words too


denying holocaust is illegal for rather "practical" reasons. the neonazis in germany are denying it because they want to picture the jews as liars, rehabilitate the national socialism by trivializing it and a couple of other reasons, which you can surely find on wikipedia.
so i can understand why they are banning it, even though it hurts the freedom of speech. i think in theory everyone should be able to say whatever he likes because if you start banning certain ideologies, its hard to tell when you are damaging democracy itself.

but this is the internet we are talking about. who really gives a shit if he gets bmed on ladder? im sure spades will apologize and everything will be fine, so why the drama?


it was a tourney, not ladder
and that's a little more than just BM imo
FryktSkyene
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1327 Posts
September 28 2011 02:22 GMT
#357
On September 28 2011 10:39 Witten wrote:
It's fine to BM if you want to. It's in your first amendment rights. However, it is in our rights to look at Spades language and lose respect for him.

Just because Hwangsin beat you doesn't mean you should call him a gook.


You do realise you forfiet your freedom of speech under blizzarsds ToS or whichever one it is.

Theres no such thing as freedom of speech in a private fourm/game/etc. If blizzard really wanted to, you can get a ban for that, they same way you can get a ban for offensive lanauge towards black people. [racial slurs]
Snitches get stiches
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 28 2011 02:30 GMT
#358
On September 27 2011 10:52 skatbone wrote:
HwangSin, that was a mature response you issued.

Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 12:48 harhar! wrote:
i dont see whats wrong with a little bm and racism. i mwan he obviously doesnt mean it, so who cares...


I hope this is sarcasm from harhar!. And if it is sarcasm, I don't find it funny. I have followed and refrained from posting in this thread but it's comments like these that push me over the edge.

In the context of the United States, racism has been institutionalized. We still witness structural disadvantages for minority groups, including women, who, despite "equality between the sexes" earn less than men for doing the same jobs. Racism isn't just about the language we use. It's about the history of disenfranchisement and the many methods that dominant groups belittle, oppress, and repress marginalized groups.

In the contemporary moment, one of the primary ways that racism functions is through the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. These stereotypes are routinely delivered in the form, "I'm not racist, but...". The "but" is followed by an outright racist sentiment or stereotype. Here's link to the work of these sociologists on the "I'm not racist, but" phenomenon: http://www.sociology.emory.edu/downloads/bonilla-silva_forman_2000_i\'m_not_a_racist_but.pdf

In Spades case, he wrote an outright racial slur. I understand the "heat of the moment" argument. I understand the "people shit talk in sports" argument. It happens. So apologies are in order. I am all for these situation being resolved through apology. But it is a radicalized comment. It can't simply be excused because of the context or because of some people want to ignore the racial content.

Furthermore, in SCII, we are dealing with the phenomenon of the written word. Shit TALK goes in one ear and out the other to the extent that it is not recorded. With SCII, shit talk is often WRITTEN and the shit talker leaves behind a written record.

Imo, this written record only increases the burden on pros to be professional and to recognize the magnitude of the heat of the moment.

As hate crime legislation continues to develop in the United States, we see a greater emphasis on taking people's motivations into account when they commit violent crimes. These motivations are measured, in part, by evidence of their racist tendencies.Take, for instance, the recent branding of a Navajo man in New Mexico, and the running-over of a black man in Mississippi. Both of these crimes were committed by white men/adolescents. Both of these are being prosecuted as hate crimes, and in both cases, the authorities have looked to the past of the assailants to gauge their racist tendencies. In doing so, they LOOK AT THE WORDS THAT PEOPLE USE as evidence of their capacity to commit a hate crime.

tl;dr The fact the Spades would threaten violence and use a racial slur in the heat of the moment pushes a button that is not limited to sports and the SCII world. Rather, violence and racism are part of the pulse of the contemporary American attempt to re-evaluate crimes with regard to the level of racist-pre-meditation. Verbal threats and racial slurs begin to establish one as having the capacity to commit a hate crime. This isn't simply me being sensitive. This is the direction of U.S. law in the contemporary moment.




What does the bit about structural disadvantages and negative stereotypes have to do with the rest of your post?
iloveAthene
Profile Joined June 2011
186 Posts
September 28 2011 02:31 GMT
#359
I'm tired of people comparing this to trash talk in sports. That is usually something like "I fucked your sister" or "your girlfriend is a whore" etc.

You don't say "Fuck you you fucking nigger" to a black guy on the other team.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 28 2011 02:36 GMT
#360
lol @ people classifying "I'll slap the shit of you at MLG you stupid gook" as mere shit talk or BM. It is quite clearly worse than those things. Your sports analogies are silly; if a black NBA player got called a nigger by another player on the court there would DEFINITELY be a fight and suspensions. Similarly, with the exception of football, sports shit talk doesn't usually involve violent threats. Spades crossed two lines in one sentence - hate speech and violent threats. Community criticism is well deserved.
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