EPTOnly Balance for the Highest Level? - Page 9
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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Superneenja
United States154 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Zerg strugghled with the protoss death ball since the game came out. It took a whole year for enough zerg players to learn infestor micro and NP usage well enough to be able to deal with it. And 2-3 weeks after it became clear that this is actually a viable way to deal with colossus death balls it was taken out of the game and protoss got some buffs on top of it. Now at the top level in korea protoss struggle with zerg, mainly because they can't keep up with the economy. Well, get better at harassing then. Zerg can't keep up with your army. That isn't any better or worse of a problem, it is just a different problem. Actually, fungal growth got buffed to be good vs armoured units. That's what happened. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
This is obviously what they are aiming for. I believe what you are referring to is if something is powerful and easy to do then it is powerful in early leagues. This is irrelevant. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
However, at the very highest level of play there is little you can do to compensate, you already practice as hard as you can and do everything in your power to become the best. Not to mention that a lot of peoples careers are on the line and a lack of balance can ruin them. | ||
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Herfelt
Denmark89 Posts
Only at the highest level the consequences of the mistakes are overshadowed by the actual balance issues. When you play near-flawlessly, balance can be the deciding factor in some cases. That's just my opinion. I'm in silver league, I don't whine about balance since I know that it won't really matter at my level of play. | ||
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EcterA
United States949 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:33 mordanis wrote: The problem with lower level balance is that it is hard to differentiate between disparity in the power of the race at whatever level(plat or gold or low masters) and the disparity in skill of the players. I recently played a PvZ where Z felt that P is too strong, but when I watched through the replay, I had +3 weapons, +3 armor and even shields coming. He had +2 ranged attacks, and that's it. In my opinion, this huge upgrade advantage negated any balance issues in platinum PvZ, but I'm not sure there is any way to prove this. You are absolutely 100 percent right. You don't need to prove it with any data, it's there in what you said. Your +3 weapons will shred any army with no armor upgrades, and your +3 armor negates his +2 ranged. Any number of factors can lead to an upgrade disparity like this, whether you had good harrassment and made him spend the money/time on other things or just applied constant pressure from the early game that put him behind, it doesn't matter. But most likely, he wasn't doing his job of getting his upgrades. In which case, no amount of 'balance changes' will help this player win, unless a nerf comes to Protoss that makes it a necessity for them to be +3/+3 just to survive a fight with a 0/0 zerg. And that's why you balance only for the top. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:42 vOdToasT wrote: Actually, fungal growth got buffed to be good vs armoured units. That's what happened. And I think that had less of an impact on the game than the Archon range buff. Against protoss, you don't use Fungal for damage. The DPS and health is far too high to rely on fungals for damage. You use fungals for pinning. But even that isn't enough, because that means you still need to attack with roaches and lings or hydras into a colossus/void ray/stalker/sentry ball that one shots them by the dozen before they even can get off one attack, if they are lucky enough to not run into force fields. This is where the neurals used to come in: to reduce the DPS long enough temporarily to actually be able to engage. Not possible anymore. Which means we are back to corruptor, which is auto lose if you make just two too much or too few, or baneling drops, which is a pretty high level skill and quite volatile. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On September 29 2011 05:01 imbecile wrote: And I think that had less of an impact on the game as the Archon range buff. Against protoss, you don't use Fungal for damage. The DPS and health is far too high to rely on fungals for damage. You use fungals for pinning. But even that isn't enough, because that means you still need to attack with roaches and lings or hydras into a colossus/void ray/stalker/sentry ball that one shots them by the dozen before they even can get off one attack, if they are lucky enough to not run into fore fields. This is where the neurals used to come in: to reduce the DPS long enough temporarily to actually be able to engage. Not possible anymore. Which means we are back to corruptor, which is auto lose if you make just two too much or too few, or baneling drops, which is a pretty high level skill and quite volatile. You know, except all those pushes I see over and over that just get chain fungaled to death, without involving any other units. | ||
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Sighstorm
Netherlands116 Posts
That being said, i actually believe there is still room in the game to tweak it in such a way that the game will be more balanced on the highest level, while not changing too much for casual players. For instance by changing stuff like rotation speed & acceleration. Changing those kind of attributes will have a completely different impact on the A-move level then on the top3-micro-in-the-world level. After increasing/balancing the "impact of player skill" of a unit (redesign) everything should be re-balanced for the highest level of play. Something like this (not saying it's easy): ![[image loading]](http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5730/balanceordesign.png) * gap = cap | ||
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unicron113
8 Posts
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Crying
Bulgaria778 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
For example: - terran are chees proof even in lower leagues and pretty easy to A-move with MM which with no micro in early game and toss can't hold it with no micro due to there units being worse dps/hp wise. -Zerg can roll rines with bling since T have bad rine micro but it equals out since zerg will get free tank shoots on there army and won't target fire rines with banelings/ he won't be able to micro his mutas vs stimed rines .... just examples i can think of Im not sure if its intended but it seems to work... balance stats from blizzard says so at least. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
On September 29 2011 05:03 VirgilSC2 wrote: You know, except all those pushes I see over and over that just get chain fungaled to death, without involving any other units. Yep, not being to a-move is hard. I get it. I manage to do that maybe once every 20 games, and only with small armies that have 2 colossus at most and he wasn't really looking and even then not without help. Killing a colossus based army with fungal takes 9 of them, 36 seconds. That is if you manage to catch the whole army with every single one of them, which is only possible with the smallest and no reinforcements come. Basically, if you lose an army to pure fungal, you deserve to lose it. Just as a zerg that loses 10 mutas to 12 marines deserves to lose them. And that happens a lot easier. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On September 29 2011 05:34 imbecile wrote: Yep, not being to a-move is hard. I get it. I manage to do that maybe once every 20 games, and only with small armies that have 2 colossus at most and he wasn't really looking and even then not without help. Killing a colossus based army with fungal takes 9 of them, 36 seconds. That is if you manage to catch the whole army with every single one of them, which is only possible with the smallest and no reinforcements come. Basically, if you lose an army to pure fungal, you deserve to lose it. Just as a zerg that loses 10 mutas to 12 marines deserves to lose them. And that happens a lot easier. Right, because EVERY Protoss army ever has Colossi in it. That makes total sense. It's not like Protoss uses units other than Colossi. No amount of micro can save your Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers/High Templar from chain-fungals. I'm not talking about my mid-diamond pushes here, I'm talking about at the pro level. Stop comparing your games to pro level balance, that's the whole point of this thread. | ||
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
To the OP, what I'm saying is that the people in lower leagues have to learn the same game as the people in masters and GM. Learning StarCraft is a process, and it kinda fucks with the process if Blizzard were to decide that the game is imba only on lower leagues, because that's almost inpossible. Sure, if there was something that you need 120 APM to counter an a-move, that's a problem. But otherwise, it's fine as it is. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
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gfever
United States180 Posts
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2plusthree
Russian Federation43 Posts
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