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On September 15 2011 15:16 MangoTango wrote:
When I go 15hat/16pool, my first two queens finish at the same time and I'll have extra energy so I usually start 2 tumors right away. Otherwise I'll wait for the 3rd queen.
Not to insult you, but this makes no fucking sense to me. Queens start with 25 energy, and you obviously don't have injects already en route as they're your first queens, so the energy can hardly be considered "extra"
In my experience, if you time your build to get 2 queens simultaneously, inject at your nat, tumor at your main, as you almost always need at least one initial inject to not be floating money. Likewise, most of my builds have linear queen production, and I make both queens consecutively from my main hatchery.
When done this way, the first queen will inject as soon as she pops, and then the second queen will pop right before the first queen is ready to do her second inject cycle, so the new queen drops a creep tumor and walks down to the natural, where she should have enough energy to inject at the natural right about when it starts, depending on the build (going by a ~21 hatch)
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If I 14 gas/14 pool against terran, I use my first queen for energy, drop the hatch on 22 then start another queen in my main, then use that queen to drop the tumor in my base before she crawls away to the other hatch. I've seen pro's do it this way too, and seems pretty legit as on some maps, by the time she reaches the other hatch she has nearly enough energy for another inject...
If I go hatch first I pop both queen at the same time, and use them both to inject, next round of energy I have my main queen drop a tumor and depending on the situation either drop another tumor or inject. I feel comfortable when I have a little bit extra larva then I need, because then when you really need the defence, and you make a few drones, you still have larva left
I'm a mid plat player, so take this as you will 
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You know, this actually helps me A LOT!!!! if i hatch 1st, double queen, main gets tumor, nat injects. or if i pool first then expand, get 2 queens from the main and when 2nd queen pops up, get the tumor. THANK YOU!!! I've always wondered really, always wondered lol. I've learned before being promoted to silver that creep is so important because i started seeing a lot of marine/tank pushes and i need to be able to run in with banelings and zerlings to be able to defend it but I always end up losing if I did not expand creep so I end up "DANG YOU MARINE/TANK!!!!!" lol. But the games I see the marine/tank, i run in with banelings and zerglings, i easily kill off his forces and he is left wide open to a counter attack, i bust in, i win!
Then i end up getting promoted to gold in 2 weeks after my promotion to silver and now my creep spread is so much more important now than it was when i was in bronze or silver especially with the game placing me against a bunch of high level gold players and low to mid level platinum players. i'm never going to win if i do not have a good creep spread. :/
Thank you guys :D
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The only time you can debate this is when you go 14/14 or 15/15 against terran. Otherwise you have enough money to make units from the larvae. When I go hatch first vs terran I usually drop a tumor with my nat queen and a inject with my main queen. Because you get 2 queens so early on you cant sustain the production yet but the creep spread is really helpful against hellions. In both zvp and zvt I always get a third queen early on for further creepspread..
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All depends on map/matchup for me. Generally:
- ZvZ : Inject first rarely do tumors as it benefits both parties. Will use tumors if they go muta's; othewise overlords to spread creep as it can be removed after the attack.
- ZvT: Almost always 15 hatch building 2 queens at once; use tumor on my main, inject nat unless it is a 2rax.
- ZvP: Generally have later creep spread; unless I take a super fast 3rd after scouting a forge FE. The second I see the forge, I use a tumor on the main and build an extra queen. This is in hopes I have all 3 bases near connected by the time a Void Ray hits it.
I find creep spread most beneficial in ZvT as it makes the tanks start leap frogging; thus slowing down the push. It's great in ZvP but they always have an observer with their army, so I don't prioritize it. Don't get me wrong I love creep spread but it is just a nuisance to a protoss, while it is a game changer to a Terran.
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I think a simple rule of thumb is that you want as many larvae as possible that you plan to and can use. After that, extra larvae provide absolutely no utility and you're better off using your queen's energy on a creep tumor, which does help you.
This translates into play depending on your queen and hatchery timings: if you go for a 15 hatch/15 pool and two queens as soon as your pool pops, for instance, if both of those queens use those initial energy on injections you'll end up with a large surplus; best to inject with one and spread creep with another. If you go for a 14 pool/18 hatch, alternatively, and start a queen as soon as your pool finishes, you won't have enough larvae to spend your money unless that queen injects ASAP, and you'll have to wait for a second queen to start spreading creep.
Other builds have other timings, and they need to be worked out just like any other aspect of a build.
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On September 16 2011 01:04 Ipp wrote:All depends on map/matchup for me. Generally: - ZvZ : Inject first rarely do tumors as it benefits both parties. Will use tumors if they go muta's; othewise overlords to spread creep as it can be removed after the attack.
- ZvT: Almost always 15 hatch building 2 queens at once; use tumor on my main, inject nat unless it is a 2rax.
- ZvP: Generally have later creep spread; unless I take a super fast 3rd after scouting a forge FE. The second I see the forge, I use a tumor on the main and build an extra queen. This is in hopes I have all 3 bases near connected by the time a Void Ray hits it.
I find creep spread most beneficial in ZvT as it makes the tanks start leap frogging; thus slowing down the push. It's great in ZvP but they always have an observer with their army, so I don't prioritize it. Don't get me wrong I love creep spread but it is just a nuisance to a protoss, while it is a game changer to a Terran.
This man knows what he's talking about.
ZvZ: I don't use creep but I think I will start. It's most beneficial when your opponent decides he can't kill you and tries to retreat with his army. You get the extra roach volley off when he steps off creep.
ZvT: Creep spread is so important I only make 4 lings before 7:00 and get a 3rd queen to spread creep/defend against helions. The 3rd queen comes right when the queen at the natural finishes and allows for a massive amount of creep spread before the 9:00-10:00 Terran push comes. It's also useful for defending against the SlayerS BFH/Marine elevator at 8:45 since you can use 3 queens to target down the medivac and lings/queens to clean up the rest of the units in your base.
ZvP: 14/14, I'll inject with the first queen and lay a tumor with the 2nd queen (started at 21 or 22 supply, after expo hatch has gone down) on its way to the expansion. It should have close to 25 energy when the expansion finishes.
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It's first inject then a creep tumor. The reason for this is that your first inject can allow you to create early defense or more drones to boost up your second base which should be coming up or should be done and making a queen.
You want three queens. You inject the first time with the first queen.
Second is creep tumor
and the second queen's first energy is used on a creep tumor as well while you get your third queen.
The reason for the second queen creep tumor is to quick connect the bases and because you simply don't have the minerals to support your injects so quickly on.
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If you go 15 hatch then you should for sure lay a creep at your nat first. Its actually impossible to spend all that larvae at that stage.
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I wouldn't double eject as 15 hatch, and I wouldn't inject twice as 14/14 either. You can't really afford it, so you might as well as put down the tumor. I mean, you could inject twice as 14/14 and then tumor on your second queen. That can work. But again, it seems like you're just capping your hatchery's natural larvae production cycle for longer than it needs to be, since you probably wont be able to get back down to two larvae quickly.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, just base your injects on your minerals.
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if i go 14 hatch 14 pool instead of 2nd inject with the main queen ill plop a creep tumor down
if i go any other build i will build a 2nd queen at main as natural hatch is building, plop a tumor down when its done, send that queen to your natural and usually if my timing is right ill have the energy for an inject just as natural hatch finishes
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it depends on the situation. i'm assuming you are referring to 15hatch.
usually i creep tumor between main/nat w/ my queen in main and inject w/ queen @ nat, however, if i get an ol scout off on their base and see they are going react hellion, i become extremely greedy: i double inject, drone really hard then pop 2 evo chambers + spine (which finish right when their hellions get to my front door), and block w/ queen and i take a huge advantage.
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You can't support all that larva in the early game if you only inject, do an injection then tumor and then you should be able to support all injections until 3rd queen for tumors only
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Typically, just to throw out my 2 cents,
I do the following : some variation of hatch first type build w/ 2 queens coming out, I inject with both first, then depending on my scout either go double tumor with the 2nd 25 energy, or just tumor with my 2nd - 25 energy with my queen in the main, and inject with queen at the natural. I like to get the larva count up early, but also don't want to go to long without having my natural/main connected in case I need the 2nd queen down to help fend off some early pressure.
If it is a 14pool with a later hatch, I inject first still, and then tumor 2nd, then move that queen down to my natural. Shortly after my next queen usually pops in the main and I'll inject with that.
I find that I'll have just 1 tumor going early game when I have 2 queens and just spend energy injecting. Lately I've been getting a quicker 3rd queen and then dropping additional tumors with that queen. Knowing that I'll miss injects as the game goes on I personally want to start stockpiling larva as much as possible as soon as possible.
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If I open 15 hatch and get my queens at the same time I put down a creep tumor with my queen in the main and inject with the other one in my nat.
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It depends. If i see hellions coming, my natural queen gets a tumor out first, helps alot vs hellions. Otherwise just inject.
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If you go 15 hatch, then it is a good idea to spread creep with your first two queens because you will not be able to support all of the larvae you could get through the queen injects. But if it is pool first like 14/14 then use first queen as inject, and make second straight away. Use the second to make creep to your expansion and that is how you make creep
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Depends on your gas timing. For hatch first with late gas, you can spend all your larva with even with 2 injects. Faster droning = get 3rd queen for creeping.
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It's tactic dependent of course but you would be wise to use creep on main and larva on exp imo, unit/drone spawn closer to the new hatch with fewer drones, connect both base with creep and get higher vision of ramp.
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In ZvT, where I 15 Hatch/16 Pool with 2 queens simultaneously popping, I inject with one and tumor with the other (usually tumor in the main, inject at the nat, since I find that my main gets way ahead in saturation otherwise). Then on the next round, I reverse that. So, after 2 cycles, each queen has injected once and tumored once. I also get a 3rd queen that goes around planting extra tumors until it goes to my 3rd.
In ZvZ, where I speedling expo, I generally always inject until I'm feeling like we've gotten past any ling/bane shenanigans. Then I might chance a tumor. Tbh though, I don't think creep spread is terribly important in ZvZ beyond connecting your bases (which is always good), so more than one isn't really necessary in that case.
In ZvP, where I also speedling expo, I inject with the first 25 energy, tumor with the 2nd. I usually have a 2nd queen starting almost immediately, and it pops pretty much as my inject finishes, so it can do the 2nd inject and my first queen can lay the tumor.
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EPT
