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Personally, I think people are too focused on PvT. Protoss is having a lot of troubles with terrans due to 1/1/1 and end game mass ghosts. But what people realize is the PvZ is more of a problem. The only reason why people haven't said anything is due to the dominance of terran overall.
People might think Im Bsing, but just look at the data.
PvZ for this GSL (code A and Code S): 28% 4 wins-10 losses
PvT for this GSL (code A and Code S): 34% 15 wins 29 losses
People can interpet this data however they want but remember all the top zerg players (Losaira and Nestea) actually got knocked out by terrans very early in the tourny.
Remember this is not a balance whine. Im sure blizzard are looking into the 1/1/1 as its win rate is super high for an all in, but I think protoss players needs to focus on PvZ as it is the entirety of the matchup hard to focus on.
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On September 08 2011 04:33 xbankx wrote:
Personally, I think people are too focused on PvT. Protoss is having a lot of troubles with terrans due to 1/1/1 and end game mass ghosts. But what people realize is the PvZ is more of a problem. The only reason why people haven't said anything is due to the dominance of terran overall.
People might think Im Bsing, but just look at the data.
PvZ for this GSL (code A and Code S): 28% 4 wins-10 losses
PvT for this GSL (code A and Code S): 34% 15 wins 29 losses
People can interpet this data however they want but remember all the top zerg players (Losaira and Nestea) actually got knocked out by terrans very early in the tourny.
Remember this is not a balance whine. Im sure blizzard are looking into the 1/1/1 as its win rate is super high for an all in, but I think protoss players needs to focus on PvZ as it is the entirety of the matchup hard to focus on.
Okay, let's look at those 10 Protoss losses.
4 of them were foreigners losing to Koreans. That was just bracket luck; if they had faced Terrans or Protoss they would have lost.
2 of them come from DRG owning Inca. Inca sucks.
1 of them is DRG beating JYP, but DRG lost that series.
The remainder of them all come from July, beating Hongun and Genius.
Look at those games, and tell me with a straight face and tell me they mean anything. Ever heard of a small sample size? Every single Z beat a P who he was massively superior to.
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Well hopefully the infester nerf will do SOMETHING in regards to pvz imbalance.
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On September 08 2011 05:28 lizzard_warish wrote:
Well hopefully the infester nerf will do SOMETHING in regards to pvz imbalance.
It's not a huge change tbh
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On September 08 2011 05:27 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:33 xbankx wrote:
Personally, I think people are too focused on PvT. Protoss is having a lot of troubles with terrans due to 1/1/1 and end game mass ghosts. But what people realize is the PvZ is more of a problem. The only reason why people haven't said anything is due to the dominance of terran overall.
People might think Im Bsing, but just look at the data.
PvZ for this GSL (code A and Code S): 28% 4 wins-10 losses
PvT for this GSL (code A and Code S): 34% 15 wins 29 losses
People can interpet this data however they want but remember all the top zerg players (Losaira and Nestea) actually got knocked out by terrans very early in the tourny.
Remember this is not a balance whine. Im sure blizzard are looking into the 1/1/1 as its win rate is super high for an all in, but I think protoss players needs to focus on PvZ as it is the entirety of the matchup hard to focus on. Okay, let's look at those 10 Protoss losses. 4 of them were foreigners losing to Koreans. That was just bracket luck; if they had faced Terrans or Protoss they would have lost. 2 of them come from DRG owning Inca. Inca sucks. 1 of them is DRG beating JYP, but DRG lost that series. The remainder of them all come from July, beating Hongun and Genius. Look at those games, and tell me with a straight face and tell me they mean anything. Ever heard of a small sample size? Every single Z beat a P who he was massively superior to.
I'm all for looking at the matches, but you have to realize that people have been making this argument for months, when month after month Protoss have been getting smashed in GSL PvZ.
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On September 08 2011 05:41 Vaporak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 05:27 imareaver3 wrote:On September 08 2011 04:33 xbankx wrote:
Personally, I think people are too focused on PvT. Protoss is having a lot of troubles with terrans due to 1/1/1 and end game mass ghosts. But what people realize is the PvZ is more of a problem. The only reason why people haven't said anything is due to the dominance of terran overall.
People might think Im Bsing, but just look at the data.
PvZ for this GSL (code A and Code S): 28% 4 wins-10 losses
PvT for this GSL (code A and Code S): 34% 15 wins 29 losses
People can interpet this data however they want but remember all the top zerg players (Losaira and Nestea) actually got knocked out by terrans very early in the tourny.
Remember this is not a balance whine. Im sure blizzard are looking into the 1/1/1 as its win rate is super high for an all in, but I think protoss players needs to focus on PvZ as it is the entirety of the matchup hard to focus on. Okay, let's look at those 10 Protoss losses. 4 of them were foreigners losing to Koreans. That was just bracket luck; if they had faced Terrans or Protoss they would have lost. 2 of them come from DRG owning Inca. Inca sucks. 1 of them is DRG beating JYP, but DRG lost that series. The remainder of them all come from July, beating Hongun and Genius. Look at those games, and tell me with a straight face and tell me they mean anything. Ever heard of a small sample size? Every single Z beat a P who he was massively superior to. I'm all for looking at the matches, but you have to realize that people have been making this argument for months, when month after month Protoss have been getting smashed in GSL PvZ.
Smashed? The sample sizes are tiny. Last month the P losses mostly came from Nestea and Losira, whereas the best PvZ'ers got themselves eliminated by P and T. Code A was dead even. Before that was the Super Tournament, which was almost dead even (11-12). The stats that should be fueling this discussion show a very mild bias to Zerg, true--and that's why next patch has equally mild rebalances in favor of Protoss. I simply don't see a serious problem.
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On September 08 2011 05:31 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 05:28 lizzard_warish wrote:
Well hopefully the infester nerf will do SOMETHING in regards to pvz imbalance. It's not a huge change tbh
I like it more as a design change than a balance change. Fungal damage may not be broken, but the philosophy of 'infestors all day err'day' certainly is. Something along the lines of a small cost increase would be ideal, but the nerf accomplishes the same thing.
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dem win rates
win rates are sign that there may be a problem there
that doesn't mean there is.
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Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:18 Bagi wrote:
Seriously, people over-estimate PvT lategame woes. Yeah ghosts are really damn strong, but so are storms and colossi. Whenever a protoss player does lose to terran in the lategame, it actually feels like they got outplayed or outsmarted. The same cannot exactly be said for 1-1-1. If we removed 1-1-1 from the equation, I think the TvP winrates would be very close to 50%.
Lategame zerg seems to be much tougher for protoss to beat, there's no imba timing to mess with the statistics, yet the win rates are even worse. I guess its more acceptable to hate on every aspect of terran because code S is full of them.
Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 09:34 imareaver3 wrote:
Smashed? The sample sizes are tiny. Last month the P losses mostly came from Nestea and Losira, whereas the best PvZ'ers got themselves eliminated by P and T. Code A was dead even. Before that was the Super Tournament, which was almost dead even (11-12). The stats that should be fueling this discussion show a very mild bias to Zerg, true--and that's why next patch has equally mild rebalances in favor of Protoss. I simply don't see a serious problem.
Strange. In the opening months of SC2 when Zergs were bashing Toss with spurious arguments on how imbalanced ZvP was, Terran was on the Zerg bandwagon beating their drum. Now there's clear evidence showing a skewed win ratio for Terrans v P, especially in Korea, somehow the 'real' problem is actually with Zergs v P. Interesting indeed.
I guess when Terran fanboys become tired of GomTvT then we can have an honest discussion on the matter of balance.
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38% winrate PVT in Korea
That's just SAD
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On September 08 2011 11:35 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:18 Bagi wrote:
Seriously, people over-estimate PvT lategame woes. Yeah ghosts are really damn strong, but so are storms and colossi. Whenever a protoss player does lose to terran in the lategame, it actually feels like they got outplayed or outsmarted. The same cannot exactly be said for 1-1-1. If we removed 1-1-1 from the equation, I think the TvP winrates would be very close to 50%.
Lategame zerg seems to be much tougher for protoss to beat, there's no imba timing to mess with the statistics, yet the win rates are even worse. I guess its more acceptable to hate on every aspect of terran because code S is full of them. Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 09:34 imareaver3 wrote:
Smashed? The sample sizes are tiny. Last month the P losses mostly came from Nestea and Losira, whereas the best PvZ'ers got themselves eliminated by P and T. Code A was dead even. Before that was the Super Tournament, which was almost dead even (11-12). The stats that should be fueling this discussion show a very mild bias to Zerg, true--and that's why next patch has equally mild rebalances in favor of Protoss. I simply don't see a serious problem.
Strange. In the opening months of SC2 when Zergs were bashing Toss with spurious arguments on how imbalanced ZvP was, Terran was on the Zerg bandwagon beating their drum. Now there's clear evidence showing a skewed win ratio for Terrans v P, especially in Korea, somehow the 'real' problem is actually with Zergs v P. Interesting indeed. I guess when Terran fanboys become tired of GomTvT then we can have an honest discussion on the matter of balance.
GomTvT is the smartest thing said in this thread. The rest is all gibberish from people who wish they understood how math works.
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I want to dig out some year old posts stating that once zergs figured out how to play they would start smashing everyone else. Only took about a year, but we got there.
Edit: But honestly, the ridiculous curves that don't have any semblance of stability should show that you cannot be serious trying to pull race imbalance arguments based on the top korean progamers. Sick Individual players like Nestea, MVP and MC can have to much sway in statistics like this, and if for whatever reason one race has more of those players, that race will end up dominating the statistics. Expecting a perfect three way split at the Code S level would be insane.
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On September 08 2011 05:27 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:33 xbankx wrote:
Personally, I think people are too focused on PvT. Protoss is having a lot of troubles with terrans due to 1/1/1 and end game mass ghosts. But what people realize is the PvZ is more of a problem. The only reason why people haven't said anything is due to the dominance of terran overall.
People might think Im Bsing, but just look at the data.
PvZ for this GSL (code A and Code S): 28% 4 wins-10 losses
PvT for this GSL (code A and Code S): 34% 15 wins 29 losses
People can interpet this data however they want but remember all the top zerg players (Losaira and Nestea) actually got knocked out by terrans very early in the tourny.
Remember this is not a balance whine. Im sure blizzard are looking into the 1/1/1 as its win rate is super high for an all in, but I think protoss players needs to focus on PvZ as it is the entirety of the matchup hard to focus on. Okay, let's look at those 10 Protoss losses. 4 of them were foreigners losing to Koreans. That was just bracket luck; if they had faced Terrans or Protoss they would have lost. 2 of them come from DRG owning Inca. Inca sucks. 1 of them is DRG beating JYP, but DRG lost that series. The remainder of them all come from July, beating Hongun and Genius. Look at those games, and tell me with a straight face and tell me they mean anything. Ever heard of a small sample size? Every single Z beat a P who he was massively superior to.
JYP PvZ is MUCH stronger than DRG ZvP, still he dropped a game and july didnt to both hongun and genius
PvZ is a problem blizzard is not seeing
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On September 20 2011 09:15 Dalavita wrote:I want to dig out some year old posts stating that once zergs figured out how to play they would start smashing everyone else. Only took about a year, but we got there. Edit: But honestly, the ridiculous curves that don't have any semblance of stability should show that you cannot be serious trying to pull race imbalances based on the top korean progamers. Sick Individual players like Nestea, MVP and MC can have to much sway in statistics like this, and if for whatever reason one race has more of those players, that race will end up dominating the statistics. Expecting a perfect three way split at the Code S level would be insane.
Completely meaningless. 233 games played in August. Of those, roughly 2/9 were PvZ (2/3 non-mirrors, 1/3 of non-mirrors PvZ). (2/9)(233) is roughly 52. Now, it's 59-41 in Zerg's favor, that means the games are roughly 21 to 31. That's an absurdly small sample size, especially when you consider that most of the PvZ's in last GSL were complete walkovers--in favor of the Z (Foreigners vs. Koreans, DRG vs. Inca, etc. Look at my previous post) Like, you can't draw any conclusions from something like that. TvZ is even worse, the probably result was 25-27, which could mean anything.
JYP PvZ is MUCH stronger than DRG ZvP, still he dropped a game and july didnt to both hongun and genius
PvZ is a problem blizzard is not seeing
Firstly, don't know why you're calling DRG's ZvP bad. He has only 14 ZvP's played, and he won 10 of them. Not enough data....
Also, have you read the 1.4 patchnotes? They seem to quite clearly address any ZvP imbalances.
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This is what I conclude from this graph.
That blizzard should almost never ask or take feedback or balance suggestions or any balance related thing from the foreign community.
Naniwa winning MLG dallas at the height of "protoss imbalance" happened at the beginning of April. Protoss win rate was at 50% for March, and later 30% for April on the Korea side. NO PATCH WAS RELEASED BETWEEN MARCH AND APRIL. Meaning all that whining about the deathball and Protoss was still only at 50% win rate. In Korea winrates for protoss going into April was abysmal, and soon NA caught up, but all the whining that Blizzard listened too already took place and Protoss got a patch in May despite having a 30% win rate in Korea.
Another interesting thing to do. Take the jing jing meter, (the korean QQ poll), and overlay it over this graph. It's like players whine against reality.
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On September 20 2011 09:28 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:15 Dalavita wrote:I want to dig out some year old posts stating that once zergs figured out how to play they would start smashing everyone else. Only took about a year, but we got there. Edit: But honestly, the ridiculous curves that don't have any semblance of stability should show that you cannot be serious trying to pull race imbalances based on the top korean progamers. Sick Individual players like Nestea, MVP and MC can have to much sway in statistics like this, and if for whatever reason one race has more of those players, that race will end up dominating the statistics. Expecting a perfect three way split at the Code S level would be insane. Completely meaningless. 233 games played in August. Of those, roughly 2/9 were PvZ (2/3 non-mirrors, 1/3 of non-mirrors PvZ). (2/9)(233) is roughly 52. Now, it's 59-41 in Zerg's favor, that means the games are roughly 21 to 31. That's an absurdly small sample size, especially when you consider that most of the PvZ's in last GSL were complete walkovers--in favor of the Z (Foreigners vs. Koreans, DRG vs. Inca, etc. Look at my previous post) Like, you can't draw any conclusions from something like that. TvZ is even worse, the probably result was 25-27, which could mean anything.
Sorry. Were you agreeing with me? I don't understand what you're trying to get at. I did state that trying to get any balance data off the Code S/A level korean players would be pointless because of the small sample size and differences made by individual gosus.
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First time Terran's not been on top since last December :o
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On September 20 2011 09:28 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:15 Dalavita wrote:I want to dig out some year old posts stating that once zergs figured out how to play they would start smashing everyone else. Only took about a year, but we got there. Edit: But honestly, the ridiculous curves that don't have any semblance of stability should show that you cannot be serious trying to pull race imbalances based on the top korean progamers. Sick Individual players like Nestea, MVP and MC can have to much sway in statistics like this, and if for whatever reason one race has more of those players, that race will end up dominating the statistics. Expecting a perfect three way split at the Code S level would be insane. Completely meaningless. 233 games played in August. Of those, roughly 2/9 were PvZ (2/3 non-mirrors, 1/3 of non-mirrors PvZ). (2/9)(233) is roughly 52. Now, it's 59-41 in Zerg's favor, that means the games are roughly 21 to 31. That's an absurdly small sample size, especially when you consider that most of the PvZ's in last GSL were complete walkovers--in favor of the Z (Foreigners vs. Koreans, DRG vs. Inca, etc. Look at my previous post) Like, you can't draw any conclusions from something like that. TvZ is even worse, the probably result was 25-27, which could mean anything. Show nested quote +JYP PvZ is MUCH stronger than DRG ZvP, still he dropped a game and july didnt to both hongun and genius
PvZ is a problem blizzard is not seeing Firstly, don't know why you're calling DRG's ZvP bad. He has only 14 ZvP's played, and he won 10 of them. Not enough data.... Also, have you read the 1.4 patchnotes? They seem to quite clearly address any ZvP imbalances.
well, tbh 10 wins in 14 games is not that good for a guy like DRG, don't get me wrong, im saying his ZvP is bad as much as Nestea ZvT is bad, it's not bad, it's just not the best in the world.
he lost to hero and JYP (the second not sure) and couldnt get to code A a lot of time cause of that
and ZvP got infestors a slighty nerf in fungal and a good nerf in neural, a nerf to blink (easier to use mutas) and a buff to ultras, I don't think it's helping tbh TT
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EPT
