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I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :<
The Koreans cite traditional differences but seem unwilling to adapt to the american situation when travelling over there, I agree NASL didn't handle communication well but unless stated beforehand they would be fed, accommodated and have to pay travel costs, maybe someone should have asked - especially since they were in a foreign country with different traditions and assumptions.
Both sides have some blame, NASL had bad communication but was accommodating when made aware of the situation. Koreans asking for an "apology" is childish. but playing at 2am in the season probably won't show their best games, and the differences in culture live may be too much right now. They're looking out for their own.
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there isnt any value in nasl, gooooooo korea
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On August 17 2011 23:05 rwadams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Im reposting because no one seems to read it. NASL provided travel to and from the airport. I can understand not liking the deposit or the play times, but will people please stop complaining about how the koreans got stranded at LAX with nothing but the clothes on their back. P.S. That last part is an exaggeration.
And I'm replying because too many people don't know the facts.
Yes, NASL arranged travel to and from the airport. AND players paid for them.
Before you say "but that's just what Koreans claiming!", that's what NASL said. Same with airfare and hotel.
Also, I have never heard about this story of Korean players left at LAX.
On August 13 2011 00:06 NASL.tv wrote:
3) This is completely false. The Korean teams expressed difficulty in attending the Grand Finals, so we offered to buy their tickets for them, and reserve their hotels for them, and arrange shuttle service for them. We spent $1,192 for each of the tickets we bought for Korean players (MC, Zenio, Squirtle, PuMa). Each hotel room cost $350, and the shuttle service to and from LAX airport averaged out to approximately $80 per players. We wrote, and had the letter translated into Korean, that we would be happy to do this for them to solve the problem of attending, and then deduct this from their travel stipends and prize. The four players who we bought tickets for expressly agreed to this. Moon, Boxer, July, and aLive made separate travel arrangements.
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On August 17 2011 22:52 SCPenguin wrote:I really have a hard time trying to understand why the Korean teams feel they NEED the best accommodations just to compete. And what is wrong with a deposit when you get it back at the end of the season. If you don't get part of that back, it's because YOU violated a rule. NASL also offered $2000 in traveling funds for each Korean player who qualifies if I remember right. ... Simple opinion: I think the Korean teams are asking for a little much. To have EVERYTHING paid for by the tournament is. . . outlandish. I know sponsorships in the west are a little more generous and numerous than they are in Korea, but I guess that's why we see Koreans joining foreigner teams  I believe the root of all the Koreans "requests" is due to sponsor limitations. It is a far more limited sponsor market over there and I understand that, but what I say to you my dear Koreans is that you are going to have to sacrifice some to earn some. Have faith in your players, train hard, learn to pay out of your pocket every now and then for big opportunity and exposure.
Jeez people. have a little empathy for these teams. Sure, EG has the money to just buy players like PuMa and HuK but the Korean teams evidently don't have the sponsorship to just throw money around.
Not getting the deposit back after the first season (I think it was $250?) is much more serious than it sounds. Sure, they will get it back eventually, but in the mean time the teams have bills to pay and have to remain a functioning business.
In the first season there were something along the lines of 3-4 players from a team in the tournament. That $1000 is a significant investment, but obviously manageable or they would not have participated.
Now consider the second season. There are now significantly more qualified Korean players, many also coming from smaller teams (e.g. TSL). So now you may have an extra 1-2 players entering the league. But wait a minute, the deposit has DOUBLED. So you have to pay at least twice as much up front to enter the league, and you haven't got your deposit back AND the prizes haven't been distributed to the players yet (so previous players can't help pay for themselves, if they want to).
What's more, if you enter the players into the league, you won't be able to access a significant amount of money that you have invested into a league that may not give it back to you for another 4 or more months (9 week season + not returned at the end, assuming a similar situation happens at the end of season 2). This money could've been used to send players abroad for other tournaments, e.g. MLG, IEM.
So there's this enormous financial burden being put on Korean teams. You're saying the burden is worth the cost for all the exposure and success the teams and players are getting. Well factor in the cost of having such a disruptive schedule put in place for possibly several of your players for a 9 week season. I think this is one of the most important things that can be learned from the MVP coach's article - how disruptive the schedule was for the players. 4am starts affect sleeping habits, performance in GSL, team practice, team spirit - even more so when multiple players are affected. I can fully understand why teams wouldn't want their players damaging their own and their teams success in far more reputable leagues, i.e. GSL, for a far less reputable league in NASL.
It just doesn't make sense to commit so much for a league that, let's face it, is absolutely terribly organised. People say it improved massively over the season, but then how did they manage to have a finals with such a ridiculous amount of problems. As far as I can see, the only thing keeping NASL going is the huge monetary input, if it wasn't for that it would be a complete flop. Just ask yourself if you would have rather had that money going into 2 more TSLs instead of 1 NASL. Oh wait, it's a rhetorical question.
I guess I should also qualify this by saying that I don't want to completely hate on NASL. More tournaments = better for eSports. It's just that it was so terribly run I find it hard to credit anything except the huge sponsors.
Back to the original OP lol, thanks for posting the interview, I respect MVP more and more as a team these days.
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Im glad to see that they are still considering coming back for it, even if its not this season
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On August 17 2011 23:32 Faria wrote:
I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :<
How are they falling apart?
No doubt, Koreans leaving will affect viewership rates, but there are still Koreans in NASL as well as other top players in the world.
I think one thing this will show the world and Korean management is that although they are important and do boost viewership ratings...they are not the end-all of any tournament, meaning they can't exactly go around threatening tournaments into meeting their demands.
That was clearly their goal, clearly why they waited 15 days to respond to offers (they responded after filming started). clearly expected by putting NASL up against the wall, they would be desperate and give in to any demands.
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a round trip flight and 5 nights in a 4-star hotel costs about $1500. Unless every Korean team is sending 2 people on this $2000, I don't understand their complaint about their travel stipend.. just check orbitz or expedia.
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On August 17 2011 23:38 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:32 Faria wrote:
I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :< How are they falling apart? No doubt, Koreans leaving will affect viewership rates, but there are still Koreans in NASL as well as other top players in the world. I think one thing this will show the world and Korean management is that although they are important and do boost viewership ratings...they are not the end-all of any tournament, meaning they can't exactly go around threatening tournaments into meeting their demands. That was clearly their goal, clearly why they waited 15 days to respond to offers (they responded after filming started). clearly expected by putting NASL up against the wall, they would be desperate and give in to any demands.
We will never know if they are unless they release figures, do you expect their viewership to have gone up? I define "falling apart" in this setting as a mass loss of viewers and players...
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On August 17 2011 23:41 Faria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:38 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 23:32 Faria wrote:
I wonder if there was even a 10% return on the initial investment of the NASL, seems to really be falling apart now :< How are they falling apart? No doubt, Koreans leaving will affect viewership rates, but there are still Koreans in NASL as well as other top players in the world. I think one thing this will show the world and Korean management is that although they are important and do boost viewership ratings...they are not the end-all of any tournament, meaning they can't exactly go around threatening tournaments into meeting their demands. That was clearly their goal, clearly why they waited 15 days to respond to offers (they responded after filming started). clearly expected by putting NASL up against the wall, they would be desperate and give in to any demands. We will never know if they are unless they release figures, do you expect their viewership to have gone up? I define "falling apart" in this setting as a mass loss of viewers and players...
Idk if you saw, yesterday NASL did a random match. They stole the majority of viewers from all the other streams at that time including IPL even though it was their big announcement, even though it wasn't preannounced.
I think their viewership rates (which were already incredibly large) will get lower, but not low enough to destroy the tournament. Koreans have an effect, but not that large, and there are still Koreans in NASL (ones with foreign management not involved in this debacle).
If anything, this will continue making players leave Korean teams for foreign ones, making it worse for the Koreans than NASL.
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On August 17 2011 23:28 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 23:10 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2011 23:08 wolverinehokie wrote:
The thing that always bugged me about NASL was that it seemed to cater to the casters and not the players. When you want players to compete from all over the globe, you have to accommodate them. There is no reason NASL should insist on broadcasting live. If they would just broadcast from replays, that would help the players out tremendously. Then if 2 players are scheduled for a certain time, they can discuss with each other to change the time if needed based on their schedule. Making Koreans get up at 4am, then making them wait 2 hours to play sucks a lot. I would not agree to that if I were them.
It was also crappy of NASL to insinuate they offered to increase the travel stipend to $2000 when really that was just decreasing the winnings so it's ends up being the same. I have no doubt it cost well over $2000 to travel from Korea to the US for a tournament. That's why it was such a big deal that MLG paid for Koreans to come. As far as I know, Koreans loved their MLG experience. Why can't NASL do what MLG does for their players? MLG only does it becuase they know they dont offer the prize pool needed to get Koreans, they know bringing koreans raises the viewer count and they know what the GSL offered in return would increase viewers even more unless im mistaken though dont they only pay for the 4 invites via the exchange program? MLG only pays for the 4 LXP players. With the SK-oGs & coL-MVP deals, as well as FXOpen, TL, EG and Fnatic all having Koreans on the teams, MLG will likely have more Korean nationals than the 4 LXP players, consistently. But that's because the visibility is HUGE at an MLG. Which is why TL & EG having a huge chunk of players in the Pool Play is so important to them. The ROI they get is huge.
I find this kindof funny as well. For MLG they do get the 4 Koreans over, but all the rest that come are paying their own way and get nothing.
NASL is at least providing compensation for all involved yet people have made it sound like MLG is a hero with what they do. I'm sure NASL could fly over just the top 4 placing Koreans and really treat them well(free tickets, hotel, etc.) and tell the rest of the qualifying Koreans to figure it out on their own. And for the record, I'd much rather be in the 16 player single elimination NASL bracket, then fly to MLG and get placed in the open bracket. But both tournaments have their setup, they are both unique, and I personally hope and want to see IPL, NASL, MLG, GSL, IEM, etc. all do well. There is room for them all, not sure why people have to like pick their favorite tournament and slam others, they all are trying to do the same thing.
The thing is, every tournament is going to be different in what they are able to provide players and what their means are. I understand how the Koreans are trying to set the standards high and use that leverage, they are finally acting like what this is, a business, and they have every right to.
But I'm just sick of everything that happens on this forum being one sides fault or the other sides fault. In business, as in life, there isn't always someone to blame. I'm not sure at what point everyone lost the ability to just step back and say, "well that sucks for both sides there was a disagreement..." to "THEY ARE EVIL AND IT IS ALL THEIR FAULT!" I guess the internet created that effect. It's funny because we've had this slew of issues in SC2 between teams, leagues, players, etc. over the past few months and if you really dissect each one, usually nobody was to blame, it was simply a misunderstanding or two sides just not sharing the same point of view. Then everyone else hops in and picks sides when in reality there is no side to pick. That is what forces the sides involved to all the sudden get defensive.
At the end of the day, the only people who are really getting the shaft are the fans and the viewers. The sad thing is that will ultimately end up hurting eSports in the long run, and come back and bite everyone involved in the ass if they all can't clean shit up, work together, and keep things growing.
Time to quit the childish bullshit, and run eSports like a business and be big boys instead of acting in a way that just perpetuates what people outside eSports thinks it actually is.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
NASL is really making a laughing fool of themselves. They better shape up fast. Is incontorl out of NASL already? It's a good start. But more to go.
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I can see the view from the Korean teams.
I understand Frustration of that NASL is having and venting it out on TL.
But if they truely want to be a professional league, they need to do the things are necessary in order for the koreans to be comfortable with like MLG is doing.
Sigh... its such a sad scene to see NASL go down like this
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On August 18 2011 00:06 StarcraftKevin wrote:
I can see the view from the Korean teams.
I understand Frustration of that NASL is having and venting it out on TL.
But if they truely want to be a professional league, they need to do the things are necessary in order for the koreans to be comfortable with like MLG is doing.
Sigh... its such a sad scene to see NASL go down like this
They didn't vent anything!
They made an announcement stating what happened and that they are disappointed negotiations didn't succeed.
I'm sure they're a lot more frustrated than that.
I think there is room for improvement for NASL. But what about the teams? They have a long way to go for me (and international sponsors) to consider them professional businesses. Breaching contracts and conducting negotiations the way they did is not professional.
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So Xeris, how many alt accounts do you have on TL ?
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On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
Not on internet forums. They want to talk to a team then you talk to the teams designated representative. example ( MANAGER, COACH, OWNER. )
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Well to be fair, why should NASL wait on the Koreans? Why should they pay for them to come over and compete for $100,000? Are they entitled too a free trip to the tournament just because they are the best? My opinion is no. If a tournament wants to pay for everything like MLG does, congrats go to MLG. However, if a tournament decides they don't want to pay for everything, then its on the Koreans to make a choice. Honestly in my opinion, I am glad the North American Star League is more North American focused this time. I'm not going to not watch it due to lack of Koreans, I plan on catching as many games as I can.
Just my thoughts. This was also discussed on State of the Game last night by iNcontroL, who as you might know, worked with/on/for NASL last season.
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I think people need to realize that the culture is extremely different and my guess is most of this non-sense is simply a misunderstanding of eachothers cultures which is only amplified by the language barrier. It's a shame really. I think NASL and the Korean teams need to talk this out and quit posting stuff on TL until they fully understand what's going on, because all it does is fuel rumors and create drama where drama doesn't exist. If there going to post anything, post it on their own website and keep it brief. I wouldn't say a lot, and I would just let people talk or make up what they are going to make up... that's better than having these huge misconceptions among the koreans and NASL, which they always seem to figure out down the road, but during that time frame it seems like everyone is taking shots at eachother.
Just no good.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
"Amateur" is the word of this whole thing.
This is Season 1 catching up on them. They don't expect to mess it up so much in Season 1 and still profit from it in Season 2, right? Now way sir. This is it. You have to do the hard work first NASL.
At least some of those people who messed it up are already out. GL NASL.
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On August 18 2011 00:25 purecarnagge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it? Not on internet forums. They want to talk to a team then you talk to the teams designated representative. example ( MANAGER, COACH, OWNER. )
In their defense, and again, something people are not aware of beacuse the Koreans won't state it in their statements...there was no manager coach or owner to talk to, as tehy refused to talk about it, pretended they didn't know about it, pretended they didn't make the decision, even led NASL to believe sc2con was involved, and then sc2con said they weren't and team manager are.
You don't make it that hard to be contacted when running negotiations. You don't go through middle men and play telephone.
I have to do negotiating at my job. It's so incredibly frustrating when you don't have a claer contact, because each day you talk to someone else who starts back at square 1 and you have to spend time catching them up. And then, in hte Koreans case, they used a middle man who wasn't even involved with them, had nothing to do with the decision making process. How was he supposed to adequately represent the Korean side if he has no idea what's going on?
Why didn't team managers contact NASL directly?
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On August 17 2011 12:51 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Treat us like the rock stars that we are, OK?" I'm sure they want free steak dinners and limo service thrown in too. When YOU are in foreign country, it would be nice if your host picks you up from the airport. They just want to be treated like a guest, not a rock star. So please dont insult their simple request...you are only insulting your own intelligence and manner.
They don't do shit for foreigners playing in GSL. I don't see this as any different. NASL, no reason to spend exorbitant amounts of money on them. Any money is already going above and beyond in my opinion.
If the Koreans were secure in thinking they were as good as everyone says they are (which IMO, they are), they would know they would be bringing home prize money. I don't buy this "cultural differences" nonsense. There's a right and wrong. Sorry.
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EPT
