• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:46
CEST 20:46
KST 03:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 20259Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced26BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Serral wins EWC 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Afreeca app available on Samsung smart TV Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
How many questions are in the Publix survey?
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 662 users

Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 765

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 763 764 765 766 767 1266 Next
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 03:08:51
September 17 2013 03:05 GMT
#15281
Make widow mines more visible. This is really important, IMO. Also make their attack animation more visible. I don't know how, but that's your job, Blizzard. It is impossible to see mines, let alone which mine hit what/where. I know some terran players manually target their mines, but as of now no one really can tell such beauty, which makes everything looks more random than they already are.

Really dislike the way they try to "balance" things in slimy ways. (see also: how ghosts blend in a marine/marauder army vs. fat and striped, impossible-to-miss infestors in a Z army)
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
September 17 2013 03:11 GMT
#15282
On September 17 2013 04:30 lolfail9001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 03:55 saddaromma wrote:
helbats were op vs any other terran strategy, hence imbalance. And got tuned down. You can call it game design or balance. Whatever. But, again if you are thinking balance only matters at race level, i strongly disagree with, it should be looked at within each race, unit and composition. You can't discuss balance and design separately, they're tightly related.

Then it somehow ends up that you are contradicting yourself, since you say that all Blizz cares about is statistical balance, but hellbats were legitimately imbalanced(as in only really viable strat) only in TvT. Yet Blizzard nerfed 'em. Boom!

Nope. I said blizzard (DK) mostly cares about race statistics. I didn't say they exclusively balance race matchups only. Please read carefully before you start arguing with me. I'm not fan of pointless internet arguing, which I do sometimes, and hate myself for it.

@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Blizzard did some jobs to fix mirrors, but it was more of bandages to glaring problems. They don't go deep into each matchup and try to fix root of the problems. E.g. they fixed mass muta in zvz, but it redirected to mass roach, and matchup still isn't fun or play most of the times. Granted it wasn't that fun in bw either. But aleast they could open more options like I don't know some new compositions or transitions. Again, I don't say its 100% roach vs roach, but you get the idea...
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 03:13:21
September 17 2013 03:12 GMT
#15283
On September 17 2013 10:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 10:42 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Yea, I think the problem really lies in the unit concept itself. Just think how many iterations they went through before they 'settled' on the current form. They were all pretty bad. The ultimate goal of the unit wasn't to be a staple part of the army, or even a harass potential. It was simply to be a map defense control mechanic for runby and muta repelling etc. A spidermine replacement that worked for air, if you will.

Perhaps they should have an additional timer that doesn't allow them to unburrow before they shoot once, or after X amount of time. That would definitely be a more exciting element for spectators. Or maybe the unit should be moved to some separate building/unit that can only cast out X amount of widow mines at a time (sort of like a nuke silo). It would be neat to see ghosts in armies calling down widow mines or something like that.


The widowmine is problematic not because of its design.

It's essentially the SC2 siege tank minus the drawbacks.

Does it have a blind spot? Nope.
High damage? Yup.
Mobile? Yup.
Cheap? Yup.
Easy to mass? Yes as well.

The "drawback" is it has a shorter range than the tank. But for all the advantages it gains, of course its worth the range loss.

The problem isn't that its a crappy mine, it's that its a good siege tank.


At 125-> 160 against shields and the ability to make Immortals into overpriced paper weights... It arguably does more effective damage as well. Thinking 2 tank volleys til the armies close ? Maybe add another 2 from deeper lying tanks?

It's a silly good siege tank. Probably game from the same geniuses that thought the warhound belongs in a competitive game.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
September 17 2013 03:13 GMT
#15284
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 04:30 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 17 2013 03:55 saddaromma wrote:
helbats were op vs any other terran strategy, hence imbalance. And got tuned down. You can call it game design or balance. Whatever. But, again if you are thinking balance only matters at race level, i strongly disagree with, it should be looked at within each race, unit and composition. You can't discuss balance and design separately, they're tightly related.

Then it somehow ends up that you are contradicting yourself, since you say that all Blizz cares about is statistical balance, but hellbats were legitimately imbalanced(as in only really viable strat) only in TvT. Yet Blizzard nerfed 'em. Boom!

Nope. I said blizzard (DK) mostly cares about race statistics. I didn't say they exclusively balance race matchups only. Please read carefully before you start arguing with me. I'm not fan of pointless internet arguing, which I do sometimes, and hate myself for it.

@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Blizzard did some jobs to fix mirrors, but it was more of bandages to glaring problems. They don't go deep into each matchup and try to fix root of the problems. E.g. they fixed mass muta in zvz, but it redirected to mass roach, and matchup still isn't fun or play most of the times. Granted it wasn't that fun in bw either. But aleast they could open more options like I don't know some new compositions or transitions. Again, I don't say its 100% roach vs roach, but you get the idea...

there had been a few muta games in DH as well, I don't know here you got the 100% roach from.
Roach battle is actually incredibly fun, I recall Ret loves it as well. A lot of positional play, flanks, burrow harass, transition etc
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 03:44:29
September 17 2013 03:38 GMT
#15285
On September 17 2013 12:13 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
On September 17 2013 04:30 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 17 2013 03:55 saddaromma wrote:
helbats were op vs any other terran strategy, hence imbalance. And got tuned down. You can call it game design or balance. Whatever. But, again if you are thinking balance only matters at race level, i strongly disagree with, it should be looked at within each race, unit and composition. You can't discuss balance and design separately, they're tightly related.

Then it somehow ends up that you are contradicting yourself, since you say that all Blizz cares about is statistical balance, but hellbats were legitimately imbalanced(as in only really viable strat) only in TvT. Yet Blizzard nerfed 'em. Boom!

Nope. I said blizzard (DK) mostly cares about race statistics. I didn't say they exclusively balance race matchups only. Please read carefully before you start arguing with me. I'm not fan of pointless internet arguing, which I do sometimes, and hate myself for it.

@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Blizzard did some jobs to fix mirrors, but it was more of bandages to glaring problems. They don't go deep into each matchup and try to fix root of the problems. E.g. they fixed mass muta in zvz, but it redirected to mass roach, and matchup still isn't fun or play most of the times. Granted it wasn't that fun in bw either. But aleast they could open more options like I don't know some new compositions or transitions. Again, I don't say its 100% roach vs roach, but you get the idea...

there had been a few muta games in DH as well, I don't know here you got the 100% roach from.
Roach battle is actually incredibly fun, I recall Ret loves it as well. A lot of positional play, flanks, burrow harass, transition etc

Please re-read my post carefully.

And I'm not sure how a-massing one unit supposed to be fun. If starcraft had only marine, zergling and zealot. Would it still be fun?
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
September 17 2013 03:54 GMT
#15286
On September 17 2013 12:38 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 12:13 ETisME wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
On September 17 2013 04:30 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 17 2013 03:55 saddaromma wrote:
helbats were op vs any other terran strategy, hence imbalance. And got tuned down. You can call it game design or balance. Whatever. But, again if you are thinking balance only matters at race level, i strongly disagree with, it should be looked at within each race, unit and composition. You can't discuss balance and design separately, they're tightly related.

Then it somehow ends up that you are contradicting yourself, since you say that all Blizz cares about is statistical balance, but hellbats were legitimately imbalanced(as in only really viable strat) only in TvT. Yet Blizzard nerfed 'em. Boom!

Nope. I said blizzard (DK) mostly cares about race statistics. I didn't say they exclusively balance race matchups only. Please read carefully before you start arguing with me. I'm not fan of pointless internet arguing, which I do sometimes, and hate myself for it.

@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Blizzard did some jobs to fix mirrors, but it was more of bandages to glaring problems. They don't go deep into each matchup and try to fix root of the problems. E.g. they fixed mass muta in zvz, but it redirected to mass roach, and matchup still isn't fun or play most of the times. Granted it wasn't that fun in bw either. But aleast they could open more options like I don't know some new compositions or transitions. Again, I don't say its 100% roach vs roach, but you get the idea...

there had been a few muta games in DH as well, I don't know here you got the 100% roach from.
Roach battle is actually incredibly fun, I recall Ret loves it as well. A lot of positional play, flanks, burrow harass, transition etc

Please re-read my post carefully.

And I'm not sure how a-massing one unit supposed to be fun. If starcraft had only marine, zergling and zealot. Would it still be fun?

I am focusing on that point where you are wrong. You said ZvZ is all about mass roach and not mass muta anymore and want new composition and transitions. We have aggressive 10 pool opening, quick lair for muta, roach mid game into hydra roach/infestor roach/even swarmhost (during spl).
That matchup isn't about massing one unit at all.

And even if it is about mass roach, think about Go for example, every piece is equal, which makes positioning and engagement even more important. You should go back to watch TvT with Ryung and Flash with the flank over flank over flank with marines and medivacs (tanks weren't in that engagement later)
That being said, there is a lot of depth in Roach wars, when to add hydras, or sac upgrade for more infestors, or even swarmhost etc
What you are saying is like why ZvZ must open with queen and lings. It's just silly, going roach/muta is a player's style, both have their transition stage
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
September 17 2013 04:12 GMT
#15287
On September 17 2013 12:54 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 12:38 saddaromma wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:13 ETisME wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
On September 17 2013 04:30 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 17 2013 03:55 saddaromma wrote:
helbats were op vs any other terran strategy, hence imbalance. And got tuned down. You can call it game design or balance. Whatever. But, again if you are thinking balance only matters at race level, i strongly disagree with, it should be looked at within each race, unit and composition. You can't discuss balance and design separately, they're tightly related.

Then it somehow ends up that you are contradicting yourself, since you say that all Blizz cares about is statistical balance, but hellbats were legitimately imbalanced(as in only really viable strat) only in TvT. Yet Blizzard nerfed 'em. Boom!

Nope. I said blizzard (DK) mostly cares about race statistics. I didn't say they exclusively balance race matchups only. Please read carefully before you start arguing with me. I'm not fan of pointless internet arguing, which I do sometimes, and hate myself for it.

@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Blizzard did some jobs to fix mirrors, but it was more of bandages to glaring problems. They don't go deep into each matchup and try to fix root of the problems. E.g. they fixed mass muta in zvz, but it redirected to mass roach, and matchup still isn't fun or play most of the times. Granted it wasn't that fun in bw either. But aleast they could open more options like I don't know some new compositions or transitions. Again, I don't say its 100% roach vs roach, but you get the idea...

there had been a few muta games in DH as well, I don't know here you got the 100% roach from.
Roach battle is actually incredibly fun, I recall Ret loves it as well. A lot of positional play, flanks, burrow harass, transition etc

Please re-read my post carefully.

And I'm not sure how a-massing one unit supposed to be fun. If starcraft had only marine, zergling and zealot. Would it still be fun?

I am focusing on that point where you are wrong. You said ZvZ is all about mass roach and not mass muta anymore and want new composition and transitions. We have aggressive 10 pool opening, quick lair for muta, roach mid game into hydra roach/infestor roach/even swarmhost (during spl).
That matchup isn't about massing one unit at all.

And even if it is about mass roach, think about Go for example, every piece is equal, which makes positioning and engagement even more important. You should go back to watch TvT with Ryung and Flash with the flank over flank over flank with marines and medivacs (tanks weren't in that engagement later)
That being said, there is a lot of depth in Roach wars, when to add hydras, or sac upgrade for more infestors, or even swarmhost etc
What you are saying is like why ZvZ must open with queen and lings. It's just silly, going roach/muta is a player's style, both have their transition stage

I think TvT is in a great state (imo best matchup). I don't know why you're bringing that up. I already stated I don't like tvz, tvp and zvz, which I think you were joking at in pervious posts.

SC2 isn't black and white, and when I say zvz is mass raoch, its not literally 100% mass roach, ofc other variations also exist. I recall some players used swarm hosts to some success. But overall, zvz feels a bit shallow, if one players gets ahead, its really difficult for other to comeback. Simply because enemy has more 'stuff'. I know concave engaging, roach micro matter, but they have little to no use when one player is noticably behind. For instance in TvT, one smart engagement (MMA vs Innovation) can turn everything upside down. ZvZ doesn't have that qualities.

As I said, you could make zvz zerglings vs zerglings only and call it strategically diverse and engaging, but in the end, I know sc2 can do better than that.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
September 17 2013 04:23 GMT
#15288
On September 17 2013 13:12 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 12:54 ETisME wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:38 saddaromma wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:13 ETisME wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
On September 17 2013 04:30 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 17 2013 03:55 saddaromma wrote:
helbats were op vs any other terran strategy, hence imbalance. And got tuned down. You can call it game design or balance. Whatever. But, again if you are thinking balance only matters at race level, i strongly disagree with, it should be looked at within each race, unit and composition. You can't discuss balance and design separately, they're tightly related.

Then it somehow ends up that you are contradicting yourself, since you say that all Blizz cares about is statistical balance, but hellbats were legitimately imbalanced(as in only really viable strat) only in TvT. Yet Blizzard nerfed 'em. Boom!

Nope. I said blizzard (DK) mostly cares about race statistics. I didn't say they exclusively balance race matchups only. Please read carefully before you start arguing with me. I'm not fan of pointless internet arguing, which I do sometimes, and hate myself for it.

@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Blizzard did some jobs to fix mirrors, but it was more of bandages to glaring problems. They don't go deep into each matchup and try to fix root of the problems. E.g. they fixed mass muta in zvz, but it redirected to mass roach, and matchup still isn't fun or play most of the times. Granted it wasn't that fun in bw either. But aleast they could open more options like I don't know some new compositions or transitions. Again, I don't say its 100% roach vs roach, but you get the idea...

there had been a few muta games in DH as well, I don't know here you got the 100% roach from.
Roach battle is actually incredibly fun, I recall Ret loves it as well. A lot of positional play, flanks, burrow harass, transition etc

Please re-read my post carefully.

And I'm not sure how a-massing one unit supposed to be fun. If starcraft had only marine, zergling and zealot. Would it still be fun?

I am focusing on that point where you are wrong. You said ZvZ is all about mass roach and not mass muta anymore and want new composition and transitions. We have aggressive 10 pool opening, quick lair for muta, roach mid game into hydra roach/infestor roach/even swarmhost (during spl).
That matchup isn't about massing one unit at all.

And even if it is about mass roach, think about Go for example, every piece is equal, which makes positioning and engagement even more important. You should go back to watch TvT with Ryung and Flash with the flank over flank over flank with marines and medivacs (tanks weren't in that engagement later)
That being said, there is a lot of depth in Roach wars, when to add hydras, or sac upgrade for more infestors, or even swarmhost etc
What you are saying is like why ZvZ must open with queen and lings. It's just silly, going roach/muta is a player's style, both have their transition stage

I think TvT is in a great state (imo best matchup). I don't know why you're bringing that up. I already stated I don't like tvz, tvp and zvz, which I think you were joking at in pervious posts.

SC2 isn't black and white, and when I say zvz is mass raoch, its not literally 100% mass roach, ofc other variations also exist. I recall some players used swarm hosts to some success. But overall, zvz feels a bit shallow, if one players gets ahead, its really difficult for other to comeback. Simply because enemy has more 'stuff'. I know concave engaging, roach micro matter, but they have little to no use when one player is noticably behind. For instance in TvT, one smart engagement (MMA vs Innovation) can turn everything upside down. ZvZ doesn't have that qualities.

As I said, you could make zvz zerglings vs zerglings only and call it strategically diverse and engaging, but in the end, I know sc2 can do better than that.

I brought up that game is to show you that even pure marines can be fun to watch.

There are two ways to look at this problem:
one smart engagement to turn everything upside down, you can say it is awesome to watch.
Yet I can also say the game is way too violate in that way, which isn't good for a competitive game. Also this is one reason why mech is generally used less because its performance is just too inconsistent.

How many other matchup really have that comeback ability in SC2?
For all I know, ZvZ is really awesome right now. Especially when different players use different style and add on some of their personal trade mark moves (I think I have only seen leenock does the burrow infestor fungal on the opponent infestors?)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
September 17 2013 06:53 GMT
#15289
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Ironic, since you can't spell my name. I wasn't taking any sides anyway, I was only looking up changes since I figured some people might want to know about them. :o
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
September 17 2013 07:01 GMT
#15290
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
SsDrKosS
Profile Joined March 2013
330 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 07:29:40
September 17 2013 07:28 GMT
#15291
On September 17 2013 12:12 Sabu113 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 10:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On September 17 2013 10:42 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Yea, I think the problem really lies in the unit concept itself. Just think how many iterations they went through before they 'settled' on the current form. They were all pretty bad. The ultimate goal of the unit wasn't to be a staple part of the army, or even a harass potential. It was simply to be a map defense control mechanic for runby and muta repelling etc. A spidermine replacement that worked for air, if you will.

Perhaps they should have an additional timer that doesn't allow them to unburrow before they shoot once, or after X amount of time. That would definitely be a more exciting element for spectators. Or maybe the unit should be moved to some separate building/unit that can only cast out X amount of widow mines at a time (sort of like a nuke silo). It would be neat to see ghosts in armies calling down widow mines or something like that.


The widowmine is problematic not because of its design.

It's essentially the SC2 siege tank minus the drawbacks.

Does it have a blind spot? Nope.
High damage? Yup.
Mobile? Yup.
Cheap? Yup.
Easy to mass? Yes as well.

The "drawback" is it has a shorter range than the tank. But for all the advantages it gains, of course its worth the range loss.

The problem isn't that its a crappy mine, it's that its a good siege tank.


At 125-> 160 against shields and the ability to make Immortals into overpriced paper weights... It arguably does more effective damage as well. Thinking 2 tank volleys til the armies close ? Maybe add another 2 from deeper lying tanks?

It's a silly good siege tank. Probably game from the same geniuses that thought the warhound belongs in a competitive game.


Yeah. WM imba!

They should have given +shield dmg (maybe another research in tech lab?) to seige tank, not Wm. (or buff ghost)
I hope one day blizzard listen
BLIZZARD, PLEASE MAKE WIDOW MINE ATTACK, NON-SPELL (if they have fixed tank)
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
September 17 2013 07:34 GMT
#15292
On September 17 2013 16:01 NarutO wrote:
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x

What in your opinion is the biggest problem with going bio/tank vs Z at the moment?
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
September 17 2013 07:35 GMT
#15293
On September 17 2013 15:53 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Ironic, since you can't spell my name. I wasn't taking any sides anyway, I was only looking up changes since I figured some people might want to know about them. :o

Ofc, proofreading and spellmistakes are of same importance.

And you actually endured yourself to go and look up mirror balance changes just in case someone is interested, and had no intention of supporting lolfail9001's arguments whatsoever. Nice story.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
September 17 2013 07:36 GMT
#15294
On September 17 2013 16:01 NarutO wrote:
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x


why would anyone nerf the mine. The mine isn't a problem, you can outmicro it, you can just counter it by changing your composition. It's already a bad unit against 90% of the units in the game.

Also I don't think people want siege tanks to behave like 13range mines vs ground.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
September 17 2013 07:42 GMT
#15295
On September 17 2013 16:34 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 16:01 NarutO wrote:
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x

What in your opinion is the biggest problem with going bio/tank vs Z at the moment?


You can sustain a higher mutalisk count, because they have high regeneration so a Thor won't scare them away easy nor will marines so they can pick off tanks easily while you push. Other than that, due to higher mutalisk counts (as you will sustain more) the harass will quickly become a problem. Zerg will fly circles around you and your base and while there is no midgame timing with tanks to begin with, you will be even further delayed. Another point would be the transition is a lot better now. While Infestors are weaker overall, ultralisks are insane now. If you would play muta/ling/bane vs bio tank and even assume its WoL status until the new ultralisks are out, the ultralisks will shit all over your marine/tank army. Its not even a competition.

So... those are the concerns and the reason we don't see muta/ling/bane. Zerg will have 4 base saturated before you even move out and potentially hive at 12 again.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
September 17 2013 07:47 GMT
#15296
On September 17 2013 16:35 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 15:53 Grumbels wrote:
On September 17 2013 12:11 saddaromma wrote:
@Grumbel, you should also learn to proofread before jumping into bandwagon.

Ironic, since you can't spell my name. I wasn't taking any sides anyway, I was only looking up changes since I figured some people might want to know about them. :o

Ofc, proofreading and spellmistakes are of same importance.

And you actually endured yourself to go and look up mirror balance changes just in case someone is interested, and had no intention of supporting lolfail9001's arguments whatsoever. Nice story.

...regardless of whatever argument you had with him, I think the question of whether Blizzard targets mirror match-ups for patch changes is interesting, I figured it was worthwhile enough to make a post about.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 07:50:26
September 17 2013 07:48 GMT
#15297
On September 17 2013 16:36 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 16:01 NarutO wrote:
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x


why would anyone nerf the mine. The mine isn't a problem, you can outmicro it, you can just counter it by changing your composition. It's already a bad unit against 90% of the units in the game.

Also I don't think people want siege tanks to behave like 13range mines vs ground.

Actually widow mine is one the best things blizzard came up since WoL beta. And needs to be preserved as it is. It provides mechanics that sc2 desperately needs: antideathball, defender advantage and unmassable.
Imo the biggest problem of tvz are banelings. They're too effective on low levels, but cost-ineffective at pro level. They do their job, but its mostly trade of gas for minerals. I think blizzard needs to deviate some aoe power from banelings to fungals. Maybe add +bio damage to fungals?
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
September 17 2013 07:52 GMT
#15298
Are you serious? Banelings are exactly what you said about the widowmine. They are anti-death-ball as you need to split against them and increase skill ceiling for Terran. You can instantly tell the difference between a grandmaster and a good progamer, hell even between progamers there is a huge difference in ability to split fast and how well. Banelings are cost-inefficient when the Terran playes well.

Low-Level is no concern, low-level players always lose due to crucial mistakes that can be fixed, if you would balance a game around that level, you might as well have the units autosplit and automatically build supply depots / overlords / pylons.

Additionally: widowmines are massable but I am not sure how clever it is to mass them. Depending on the army of the opponent, 15 widowmines for example are 30 supply and once the shots are gone, you better hope they hit hard otherwise you have 30 supply that is useless for the next 40 seconds
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
September 17 2013 07:53 GMT
#15299
On September 17 2013 16:42 NarutO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 16:34 bo1b wrote:
On September 17 2013 16:01 NarutO wrote:
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x

What in your opinion is the biggest problem with going bio/tank vs Z at the moment?


You can sustain a higher mutalisk count, because they have high regeneration so a Thor won't scare them away easy nor will marines so they can pick off tanks easily while you push. Other than that, due to higher mutalisk counts (as you will sustain more) the harass will quickly become a problem. Zerg will fly circles around you and your base and while there is no midgame timing with tanks to begin with, you will be even further delayed. Another point would be the transition is a lot better now. While Infestors are weaker overall, ultralisks are insane now. If you would play muta/ling/bane vs bio tank and even assume its WoL status until the new ultralisks are out, the ultralisks will shit all over your marine/tank army. Its not even a competition.

So... those are the concerns and the reason we don't see muta/ling/bane. Zerg will have 4 base saturated before you even move out and potentially hive at 12 again.

honestly I feel hots design just messed up the game.
Instead of making both bio tank, bio mine and tank with mine support etc viable, they tried to make bio mine the dominate style.
the mine and medivac boost lead to muta increase in speed and regen to fight even.
but leads to muta becomes too good against bio tank
bio mine itself becomes way better than other two strategies.

This makes blizzard not able to change anything about the mine or they would have to change it for muta too which then affects ZvP by a large margin since tech switch is key in zvp for hots now
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-17 07:55:11
September 17 2013 07:53 GMT
#15300
On September 17 2013 16:34 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 16:01 NarutO wrote:
I hope people realize that current ZvT is demanding, but not imbalanced. While I would like to see a change, I would like to see a change to make the game more entertaining and complex, not because I think something is imbalanced im TvZ. We saw DRG state that control usually decides who wins those battles and while Zerg previously had the option to either not micro at all or micro to some extent / set up flanks, now you have to control your army in fights which is a good thing.

Games that show good control:

Scarlett/Bomber
hyvaa/INnoVation
DRG/INnoVation
Serral/SuperNoVa (partly good control, partly good decisions)

While I believe it should go without saying, I will still point out that people should realize that nerfing the widowmine doesn't go without buffing another aspect of Terran, as tanks would see no midgame timing allowing the Zerg to freely do whatever he wants converting HotS basically back to WoL. In addition, tanks cannot retreat nor move easily on creep, while the widowmine does allow it. Terran does play it, because its the only viable option currently and nerfing it severely will lead to not just Zerg dominace, but utter destruction of Terran. An aspect we never saw the other way around. To proof that point, you can have a look at any TvZ in which the mines didn't detonate as well as they can/should/Terran wants them to and the result often times is a complete destruction of the Terran force and/or retreat with as much as possible. While I feel the widowmines are a good thing "FOR ZERG" as in they increase the skill ceiling and make their engagements harder and more demanding which is good, becuase a good player will always show while a bad player won't I think its bad from a Terran aspect of view. Besides mines being relatively random, I feel targeting with mines is no reliable skill. While there are some Terrans that occasionally (or in INnoVations case often) targets with mines, I still feel it has a tad of randomness in it.

I would love to see something done with the siege tank, but the truth is, the siege tank is very good in TvT and making it better vs Zerg with for example an upgrade that allows movement speed and/or faster siege/unsiege you will effectively make TvT mech a lot stronger. I don't know if that is what Blizzard wants, but that would be my point :x

What in your opinion is the biggest problem with going bio/tank vs Z at the moment?


Oh that's easy, its that tanks are not cost efficient enough any more, they are too immobile and thus, too easy for the zerg with his new mutalisks, to just be picked off. Also, to make tanks cost efficient you need to spread them out, but the more spread out they are the easier they also are to be picked off, which make bio tank disproportional more hard to use for the amount of damage they can deal and for the amount of retention.

Tanks are easier to engage as well, its much easier to just send in small packs of lings to pick off lone tanks, you can't send off small packs of lings to pick off a mine, you either first diffuse it, which means sacking a large number of lings, or flying in with mutas and overseers and sniping them before they go off, which costs a lot of APM to pull off correctly.

Lastly tanks don't require overseers to kill, which means zerg can invest even more gas into upgrades or teching or banes or mutas.

Edit: I also dare say that, now with how mutalisks have become so much stronger in combat as well, due to their regeneration, WM are even more vital because they do damage to them and they make it easier for your marines to snipe them, tanks don't do that either.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Prev 1 763 764 765 766 767 1266 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
17:00
Rotti Stream Rumble All-Random
RotterdaM653
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 653
mcanning 199
UpATreeSC 118
SteadfastSC 63
EmSc Tv 59
MindelVK 26
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 1038
EffOrt 686
Larva 333
Mind 147
yabsab 128
Dewaltoss 117
TY 78
Free 48
eros_byul 0
Dota 2
qojqva5468
League of Legends
Grubby2291
Counter-Strike
fl0m3945
sgares432
Super Smash Bros
Westballz31
Other Games
B2W.Neo935
Fuzer 114
Trikslyr83
mouzStarbuck27
trigger1
Organizations
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 59
EmSc2Tv 59
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 181
• Berry_CruncH128
• davetesta55
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 29
• 80smullet 18
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 5398
• masondota21709
• WagamamaTV369
League of Legends
• TFBlade1329
Other Games
• imaqtpie1322
• Shiphtur569
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
15h 14m
WardiTV European League
21h 14m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 5h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Online Event
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.