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On September 02 2013 16:05 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 15:57 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache. Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk: + Show Spoiler + So much effort to ask for a marine nerf while the top of the pro scene looks as balanced as it could be hoped to be.
I don't think there is a marine nerf needed at all (balancewise we could go on with what we are seeing since march anyways). Not to mention that it is completely undoable at this point to nerf marines, all Terran matchups would completely break.
TvT is showing the way, what should be done (have enough unit counters by design at different techpaths):
4 Mech units with splash
1 Mech singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Thor)
Marines yourself with bio
Ghosts that beat Marines supply for supply
1 splash unit in the Air (Raven)
1 Air singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Battlecruiser)
As Zerg you have:
2 splash ground combat units
1 caster with splash that beats Marines supply for supply (Infestor)
1 Air Unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Broodlord)
What should be done is to make one of the following units costefficient against marines in the mid-late stages of the game for direct combat: roach, hydralisks, swarm host, viper, Infestor. (of course not early on, that would probably be broken if roaches, hydras... could just walk over marines)
At least if we want more variety.
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Can you give a bit of detail why the way TvT works is a model for TvZ. What's your reasoning for saying Z needs a mid-late game unit with splash (sounds a lot like the ultra). You know yourself that ghosts, thors and raven seekers are very rare in TvT. So I think more elaboration of the interaction and the mechanics is needed.
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On September 02 2013 16:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 02 2013 15:57 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache. Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk: + Show Spoiler + So much effort to ask for a marine nerf while the top of the pro scene looks as balanced as it could be hoped to be. I don't think there is a marine nerf needed at all (balancewise we could go on with what we are seeing since march anyways). Not to mention that it is completely undoable at this point to nerf marines, all Terran matchups would completely break. TvT is showing the way, what should be done (have enough unit counters by design at different techpaths): 4 Mech units with splash 1 Mech singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Thor) Marines yourself with bio Ghosts that beat Marines supply for supply 1 splash unit in the Air (Raven) 1 Air singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Battlecruiser) As Zerg you have: 2 splash ground combat units 1 caster with splash that beats Marines supply for supply (Infestor) 1 Air Unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Broodlord) What should be done is to make one of the following units costefficient against marines in the mid-late stages of the game for direct combat: roach, hydralisks, swarm host, viper, Infestor. (of course not early on, that would probably be broken if roaches, hydras... could just walk over marines) At least if we want more variety.
agree! would love it if Z gets counters to bio buffed so T has to add support units like tanks, ravens etc. while also buffing those support units themselves (tanks) or the transition to those support units (faster build time/less upgrades for BCs/raven/thors).
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On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines?
While we're at it, why not make siege tanks immune to immortal shots if we're just gonna throw random rules that make no sense into the game?
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On September 02 2013 16:28 Ghanburighan wrote:
Can you give a bit of detail why the way TvT works is a model for TvZ. What's your reasoning for saying Z needs a mid-late game unit with splash (sounds a lot like the ultra). You know yourself that ghosts, thors and raven seekers are very rare in TvT. So I think more elaboration of the interaction and the mechanics is needed.
My point on most of those specific units you mention isn't that they are always being used, but that Terran has those options. Of course you won't see many Ravens or Thors to counter Marines, but if you get one of those for one reason or another it's not a situation where you are afterwards like: "oh fuck, when we both max out and I can't trade off my Thor(s)/Raven(s) before that I'm fucked because those units are so bad against his marine composition".
I mean this is like Broodlords or Infestors. They are quite good against marines if you can stabilize while keeping them. Of course noone will ever be like "fuck marines, let's mass BCs", because there are better options around. But when you find a reason why you want BCs (like tanks) it is not a waste to have them against marines either.
One more detail, I don't think Zerg needs a mid-late game unit with splash. I think Zerg needs options beside going for those that are already there, because those options are ultralisk and baneling and force you into a very, very specific mid-lategame.
And it doesn't have to be a splash unit. High armor or specific damage boni are also a really good counter to marines. Outranging marines is pretty good as well.
E.g. a T3 armor upgrade for roaches, a +vs bio buff/change/upgrade for Hydralisks or a buff to their range upgrade. A locust redesign with less health and more armor (burst unit become stronger vs locusts, low damage units worse) or a +vs light/bio change. A fungal buff with +vs bio or light. A Viper blinding cloud redesign to be stronger vs small units (and worse vs static ones).
At least those are things I can think of the top of my head which wouldn't mess too much with PvZ (besides zealots, sorry guys).
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On September 02 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:28 Ghanburighan wrote:
Can you give a bit of detail why the way TvT works is a model for TvZ. What's your reasoning for saying Z needs a mid-late game unit with splash (sounds a lot like the ultra). You know yourself that ghosts, thors and raven seekers are very rare in TvT. So I think more elaboration of the interaction and the mechanics is needed. My point on most of those specific units you mention isn't that they are always being used, but that Terran has those options. Of course you won't see many Ravens or Thors to counter Marines, but if you get one of those for one reason or another it's not a situation where you are afterwards like: "oh fuck, when we both max out and can't trade off my Thor(s)/Raven(s) before that I'm fucked because those units are so bad against his marine composition". I mean this is like Broodlords or Infestors. They are quite good against marines if you can stabalize while keeping them. Of course noone will ever be like "fuck marines, let's mass BCs", because there are better options around. But when you find a reason why you want BCs (like tanks) it is not a waste to have them against marines either. One more detail, I don't think Zerg needs a mid-late game unit with splash. I think Zerg needs options beside going for those that are already there, because those options are ultralisk and baneling and force you into a very, very specific mid-lategame. And it doesn't have to be a splash unit. High armor or specific damage boni are also a really good counter to marines. Outranging marines is pretty good as well. E.g. a T3 armor upgrade for roaches, a +vs bio buff/change/upgrade for Hydralisks or a buff to their range upgrade. A locust redesign with less health and more armor (burst unit become stronger vs locusts, low damage units worse) or a +vs light/bio change. A fungal buff with +vs bio or light. A Viper blinding cloud redesign to be stronger vs small units (and worse vs static ones). At least those are things I can think of the top of my head which wouldn't mess too much with PvZ (besides zealots, sorry guys).
What would you say to moving hydras down to hatch tech and bringing down their DPS a bit while also giving them 1 base armor and moving the roach up to lair as a beefier unit with a form of splash damage?
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On September 02 2013 16:53 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 16:28 Ghanburighan wrote:
Can you give a bit of detail why the way TvT works is a model for TvZ. What's your reasoning for saying Z needs a mid-late game unit with splash (sounds a lot like the ultra). You know yourself that ghosts, thors and raven seekers are very rare in TvT. So I think more elaboration of the interaction and the mechanics is needed. My point on most of those specific units you mention isn't that they are always being used, but that Terran has those options. Of course you won't see many Ravens or Thors to counter Marines, but if you get one of those for one reason or another it's not a situation where you are afterwards like: "oh fuck, when we both max out and can't trade off my Thor(s)/Raven(s) before that I'm fucked because those units are so bad against his marine composition". I mean this is like Broodlords or Infestors. They are quite good against marines if you can stabalize while keeping them. Of course noone will ever be like "fuck marines, let's mass BCs", because there are better options around. But when you find a reason why you want BCs (like tanks) it is not a waste to have them against marines either. One more detail, I don't think Zerg needs a mid-late game unit with splash. I think Zerg needs options beside going for those that are already there, because those options are ultralisk and baneling and force you into a very, very specific mid-lategame. And it doesn't have to be a splash unit. High armor or specific damage boni are also a really good counter to marines. Outranging marines is pretty good as well. E.g. a T3 armor upgrade for roaches, a +vs bio buff/change/upgrade for Hydralisks or a buff to their range upgrade. A locust redesign with less health and more armor (burst unit become stronger vs locusts, low damage units worse) or a +vs light/bio change. A fungal buff with +vs bio or light. A Viper blinding cloud redesign to be stronger vs small units (and worse vs static ones). At least those are things I can think of the top of my head which wouldn't mess too much with PvZ (besides zealots, sorry guys). What would you say to moving hydras down to hatch tech and bringing down their DPS a bit while also giving them 1 base armor and moving the roach up to lair as a beefier unit with a form of splash damage?
I think that would be too big of a change and might cause huge troubles for ZvP and ZvZ. It could also be too good as early antiair and as bustunit (hydras can shoot Protoss/Terran/Zerg walls without getting attacked by canon/bunker/spine/5-6range units unlike roaches).
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On September 02 2013 16:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 02 2013 15:57 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache. Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk: + Show Spoiler + So much effort to ask for a marine nerf while the top of the pro scene looks as balanced as it could be hoped to be. I don't think there is a marine nerf needed at all (balancewise we could go on with what we are seeing since march anyways). Not to mention that it is completely undoable at this point to nerf marines, all Terran matchups would completely break. TvT is showing the way, what should be done (have enough unit counters by design at different techpaths): 4 Mech units with splash 1 Mech singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Thor) Marines yourself with bio Ghosts that beat Marines supply for supply 1 splash unit in the Air (Raven) 1 Air singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Battlecruiser) As Zerg you have: 2 splash ground combat units 1 caster with splash that beats Marines supply for supply (Infestor) 1 Air Unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Broodlord) What should be done is to make one of the following units costefficient against marines in the mid-late stages of the game for direct combat: roach, hydralisks, swarm host, viper, Infestor. (of course not early on, that would probably be broken if roaches, hydras... could just walk over marines) At least if we want more variety.
I don't understand your reasoning, it just seems kind of nonsensical, why are we using TvT as a basis for ZvT? There's like no correlation between the point you're trying to make. Marines are kept in check largely due to the Siege Tank, are you saying Zerg should have something as cost efficient?
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Why not give infestors a buff on bio units? Make it do 40 damage? That would force the Terrans to change up their composition a bit. I remember seeing how Terran always bank up over 1k gas most of the time.
Also, Protoss won't be affected by it as much, because of most of their composition consists of psionic/mechanical.
As for Zerg, well, at least, we will be seeing more spell casters in play! 
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On September 02 2013 17:31 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:20 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 16:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 02 2013 15:57 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache. Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk: + Show Spoiler + So much effort to ask for a marine nerf while the top of the pro scene looks as balanced as it could be hoped to be. I don't think there is a marine nerf needed at all (balancewise we could go on with what we are seeing since march anyways). Not to mention that it is completely undoable at this point to nerf marines, all Terran matchups would completely break. TvT is showing the way, what should be done (have enough unit counters by design at different techpaths): 4 Mech units with splash 1 Mech singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Thor) Marines yourself with bio Ghosts that beat Marines supply for supply 1 splash unit in the Air (Raven) 1 Air singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Battlecruiser) As Zerg you have: 2 splash ground combat units 1 caster with splash that beats Marines supply for supply (Infestor) 1 Air Unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Broodlord) What should be done is to make one of the following units costefficient against marines in the mid-late stages of the game for direct combat: roach, hydralisks, swarm host, viper, Infestor. (of course not early on, that would probably be broken if roaches, hydras... could just walk over marines) At least if we want more variety. I don't understand your reasoning, it just seems kind of nonsensical, why are we using TvT as a basis for ZvT? There's like no correlation between the point you're trying to make. Marines are kept in check largely due to the Siege Tank, are you saying Zerg should have something as cost efficient?
That's not true, you can go mass hellion/hellbat/mines as well (the biomech player needs marauders/tanks to beat that), or in bio vs bio Marines are largely kept back by superior marine numbers with better concaves for the defender. And as I explained earlier, building a Thor or Raven because you wanted to counter e.g. a banshee isn't completely inefficient vs Marines either, because those units scale better in the longrun than marines do, even if they are not straight up costefficient.
Relationships like those don't really exist for Zerg in the early and midgame. Until Ultralisks or a massive army of Broodlord/Infestor is out, Terran does not have to transition at all from mass marine play in an even situation.
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On September 02 2013 17:31 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:20 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 16:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 02 2013 15:57 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache. Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk: + Show Spoiler + So much effort to ask for a marine nerf while the top of the pro scene looks as balanced as it could be hoped to be. I don't think there is a marine nerf needed at all (balancewise we could go on with what we are seeing since march anyways). Not to mention that it is completely undoable at this point to nerf marines, all Terran matchups would completely break. TvT is showing the way, what should be done (have enough unit counters by design at different techpaths): 4 Mech units with splash 1 Mech singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Thor) Marines yourself with bio Ghosts that beat Marines supply for supply 1 splash unit in the Air (Raven) 1 Air singlefire unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Battlecruiser) As Zerg you have: 2 splash ground combat units 1 caster with splash that beats Marines supply for supply (Infestor) 1 Air Unit that beats Marines supply for supply (Broodlord) What should be done is to make one of the following units costefficient against marines in the mid-late stages of the game for direct combat: roach, hydralisks, swarm host, viper, Infestor. (of course not early on, that would probably be broken if roaches, hydras... could just walk over marines) At least if we want more variety. I don't understand your reasoning, it just seems kind of nonsensical, why are we using TvT as a basis for ZvT? There's like no correlation between the point you're trying to make. Marines are kept in check largely due to the Siege Tank, are you saying Zerg should have something as cost efficient?
The point is that the power of marines can continuously be mitigated in TvT as you move up through the tech tree because Terran has various units that deal with them well enough to keep things pretty stable. The issue with TvZ is that between banelings and a combination of infestors and hive units, there's a gap where Zerg doesn't really have a unit effective in dealing with them, particularly in conjunction with widow mines, and it's what allows the parade push style that often prevents Zergs from ever getting going on hive tech to work. Marine micro at high levels has become good enough to keep banelings from being a hardcounter to marines, and the introduction of widow mines has given Terran a splash unit that permits a much more aggressive and relentless style of attacking than siege tanks ever did. This basically puts Zergs in a catch-22 situation where they need to tech up to beat the marine/mine army, but they can't because all resources must be spent continuously defending the constant attack the Terran is sending across the map at them, and so the only option becomes to try and defend efficiently enough that the Terran eventually punches himself out because the drawback of that style is that you can't really go past three bases.
Unfortunately, a marine nerf is unrealistic because 4M is currently the only style that works in TvZ. With better mutas and especially vipers, mech or compositions involving siege tanks get stomped on pretty hard. Not to mention the ramifications a marine nerf would have in TvP.
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On September 02 2013 16:44 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? While we're at it, why not make siege tanks immune to immortal shots if we're just gonna throw random rules that make no sense into the game?
Okay, if you want to know my reasoning, then here it is.
I remember seeing a Flash vs. Fantasy game, where Flash was considerably ahead with a SkyTerran composition ready to go. But Fantasy won by having WM take down the slow-ass battlecruisers.
Also, WM can soften up Ultralisks and BL considerably!
I am suggesting WM to be more of a early-mid game type of unit.
Sheesh, contain your ego, bro
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As a terran player, at this point I want the widow mine removed from the game. I don't like it at all, its boring, it feels overpowered and its terrible for a zerg player to play against. I want my siege tanks back.
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On September 02 2013 17:56 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:44 forsooth wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? While we're at it, why not make siege tanks immune to immortal shots if we're just gonna throw random rules that make no sense into the game? Okay, if you want to know my reasoning, then here it is. I remember seeing a Flash vs. Fantasy game, where Flash was considerably ahead with a SkyTerran composition ready to go. But Fantasy won by having WM take down the slow-ass battlecruisers. Also, WM can soften up Ultralisks and BL considerably! I am suggesting WM to be more of a early-mid game type of unit. Sheesh, contain your ego, bro
You're not understanding my point. To say "this unit's attack will now not work against this type of unit" is completely silly and inelegant and has no place in the game. If you have to make a rule like that, either your idea is bad or the unit is bad. In this case, it's more the former than the latter. All attacks and all spells that do damage, do damage. The only difference is that certain ones gain bonuses against certain unit types, such as psionic or light. Now, if you wanted to suggest that widow mines do less damage to massive units than to non-massive, that might make some sense. But to suggest that they should just magically do no damage at all? That should pretty obviously fall outside the realm of what constitutes a reasonable suggestion.
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On September 02 2013 18:02 krooked wrote:
As a terran player, at this point I want the widow mine removed from the game. I don't like it at all, its boring, it feels overpowered and its terrible for a zerg player to play against. I want my siege tanks back.
Then how will you deal with mutalisks? I have seen Terran players using tanks, and they were suffering pretty badly 
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On September 02 2013 18:09 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 17:56 hansonslee wrote:On September 02 2013 16:44 forsooth wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? While we're at it, why not make siege tanks immune to immortal shots if we're just gonna throw random rules that make no sense into the game? Okay, if you want to know my reasoning, then here it is. I remember seeing a Flash vs. Fantasy game, where Flash was considerably ahead with a SkyTerran composition ready to go. But Fantasy won by having WM take down the slow-ass battlecruisers. Also, WM can soften up Ultralisks and BL considerably! I am suggesting WM to be more of a early-mid game type of unit. Sheesh, contain your ego, bro You're not understanding my point. To say "this unit's attack will now not work against this type of unit" is completely silly and inelegant and has no place in the game. If you have to make a rule like that, either your idea is bad or the unit is bad. In this case, it's more the former than the latter. All attacks and all spells that do damage, do damage. The only difference is that certain ones gain bonuses against certain unit types, such as psionic or light. Now, if you wanted to suggest that widow mines do less damage to massive units than to non-massive, that might make some sense. But to suggest that they should just magically do no damage at all? That should pretty obviously fall outside the realm of what constitutes a reasonable suggestion.
Okay, my idea was not good, because I forgot about the spell damage. Big deal, bro.
You know that there is no such thing as damage reduction against massive units, right? Sure, there are damage bonuses, but I don't think there has ever been a unit that has two damage bonus types (with the exception of a WoL void ray, which used a bonus damage and a percentage bonus). Your suggestion has its faults too.
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Maybe we should go away from trying to balance just with nurfing/buffing units. TvZ is very hard to balance unitwise because little changes can have massive impacts.
What about changing it with making the 3cc + double ebay build harder? Maybe cut the flying ability on the orbital command like a PF?
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On September 02 2013 18:24 USvBleakill wrote:
Maybe we should go away from trying to balance just with nurfing/buffing units. TvZ is very hard to balance unitwise because little changes can have massive impacts.
What about changing it with making the 3cc + double ebay build harder? Maybe cut the flying ability on the orbital command like a PF?
I think that would hurt Terran extremely badly. PF at least had a turret to save itself while oribitals are pretty defenseless. Protoss now has the photon overcharge, and zerg can have defense mechanisms such as queens and creep. Finally, Terran needs a SCV to build the CC, if the scv gets killed, then the Terran would be greatly delayed.
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On September 02 2013 18:16 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:09 forsooth wrote:On September 02 2013 17:56 hansonslee wrote:On September 02 2013 16:44 forsooth wrote:On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? While we're at it, why not make siege tanks immune to immortal shots if we're just gonna throw random rules that make no sense into the game? Okay, if you want to know my reasoning, then here it is. I remember seeing a Flash vs. Fantasy game, where Flash was considerably ahead with a SkyTerran composition ready to go. But Fantasy won by having WM take down the slow-ass battlecruisers. Also, WM can soften up Ultralisks and BL considerably! I am suggesting WM to be more of a early-mid game type of unit. Sheesh, contain your ego, bro You're not understanding my point. To say "this unit's attack will now not work against this type of unit" is completely silly and inelegant and has no place in the game. If you have to make a rule like that, either your idea is bad or the unit is bad. In this case, it's more the former than the latter. All attacks and all spells that do damage, do damage. The only difference is that certain ones gain bonuses against certain unit types, such as psionic or light. Now, if you wanted to suggest that widow mines do less damage to massive units than to non-massive, that might make some sense. But to suggest that they should just magically do no damage at all? That should pretty obviously fall outside the realm of what constitutes a reasonable suggestion. Okay, my idea was not good, because I forgot about the spell damage. Big deal, bro. You know that there is no such thing as damage reduction against massive units, right? Sure, there are damage bonuses, but I don't think there has ever been a unit that has two damage bonus types (with the exception of a WoL void ray, which used a bonus damage and a percentage bonus). Your suggestion has its faults too.
Your idea wasn't good because it wasn't good. Also, I didn't make any suggestions myself, only pointed out that ones made ought to fit within the current framework of rules that make sense. Before you reply again, please take the time to actually read and understand what I type so that there will be no further misunderstandings, "bro".
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3CC/double ebay is still vulnerable to busts, the problem is knowing that the double ebays are going down IMO. 3CC is pretty common now, but if Terrans try 3CC double ebays without a techlab on the factory and the zerg scouts it early, busting the front is a viable option and very very strong.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iP79h8Z.jpg)
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