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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 30 2013 21:32 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:22 Chaggi wrote:On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones. Mutas literally don't get 1 shot by WM's. sure they do?! obv not all of them but you lose 1 muta everytime they eat a shot to single target damage. thats why i wrote "you lose mutas here and there" Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:32 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones. 10:00 4th is really late one for ecocheese, i recall Soulkey if he was not going shenanigans he would get it at 9:30 and earlier. After all 3rd CC on 25 supply is kind-of-ecocheese too, right :D? Both Keen and Bomber lost those games because of horrible engagement that allowed for Symbol to go and kill Keen there, while Bomber got his 4th denied and lost all the momentum the parade push is supposed to have and it snowballed in muta count (around 50 mutas near end of that game). really? do have a VOD of that 9:30 4th by soulkey? would be interesting. also did soulkey also go up to nearly 100 drones or just for the gas?
I say that it was in production tab starting 9:30, not finished, do not misunderstand me. No, soulkey killed his opponent before 100 drones and he was only getting 75 drones total in that game i believe.
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Hi everyone,
as so many before me I want to talk about the MULE.
Problem:
Everyone complains about MULE being OP. (I think that this may be the case late game, but they are quite necessary early. The problem I want to fix here isn't the OPness but the complaints.)
The terran have no way to boost worker production in a way similar to protoss or zerg, so they need a mechanic that makes sure they can keep up, which is the MULE. The MULE feels like "free minerals"(TM) as it converts energy straight to minerals instead of converting energy + minerals + supply to additional workers as for the other 2 races.
Solution:
Buff MULE!
The MULE should decay to a normal SCV instead of a pile of crap after its timer runs out. It would become immediately clear that its role is to help the terran lack of extra worker production.
It shouldn't be a free worker of course, it will cost supply as any other and the 50 minerals will be taken from what the MULE collects. Half of the MULEs income will stay inside until 50 are gathered. If there are no 50 minerals collected at the end of the MULEs lifetime no SCV will be spawned.
MULE should cost 1 supply to make sure there is no infinite over-supply possible. (200/200 army + 200 SCVs sounds a bit scary)
Lategame MULE will be less used especially if there is no free supply. Even if used extensively lategame it will be less effective as the unwanted SCVs have to be sacrificed.
The complaints will stop as the MULE will be the terran extra worker mechanic in a more obvious way.
Side Effects:
Main side effect will be: "W T F you want to buff the MULE?"
The MULE may actually become overpowered by this in the early game, in that case the gathered minerals or lifetime or both should be reduced accordingly.
Let's see what you think of this :-)
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Canada8157 Posts
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 30 2013 22:37 Jer99 wrote:
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much
Hence the fast 3rd CC aka more workers is de-facto standard in TvZ, eh :D?
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On August 30 2013 22:31 ntroPi wrote:
Mule stuff.
All of my what.
E: Actually nevermind, not as horrible as I thought initially. But would need some serious tweaking.
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On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively).
I wasn't talking about not going muta/ling/bling. You MUST go ling/bling + something in the midgame, there is no alternative to massive baneling play in the midgame. And mutas sure seem to be the superior (only stable?) choice for something.
But anytime you don't get a 50supply lead in the midgame, I believe you should try to turtle it out and transition into ultras and if he isn't completely unprepared transition into mass infestors after that. Trying to stay on muta/ling/bling even with an advantage is very unstable as can be seen in Polt vs Jaedong, Bomber vs Jaedong, Symbol vs Reality...
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On August 30 2013 22:39 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:37 Jer99 wrote:
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much Hence the fast 3rd CC aka more workers is de-facto standard in TvZ, eh :D?
Zergs just never try new build orders mang.
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On August 31 2013 02:40 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:39 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:37 Jer99 wrote:
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much Hence the fast 3rd CC aka more workers is de-facto standard in TvZ, eh :D? Zergs just never try new build orders mang.
Well Terrans can sit relatively safely behind their wall-in to protect the 3rd CC while it is being built, BUT it has been a long time since I have seen a Baneling bust from a Zerg and once the production of Widow Mines is started in earnest the Terran takes over the momentum. Zerg simply have to stop that from happening by early aggression ... which is NOT the usual way they do it these days. Even trying to deny the natural base - CatZ proxy natural? hatch-cancel-evo-chamber? - would help to slow down those mines considerably.
During WoL Zerg "had the initiative" and pulled the Terran's strings here and there with threats and small attacks, but with the Widow Mine the Terran can reverse this ... and Zerg havent noticed this general change in the flow of the game. They are still thinking "cool ... Terran isnt aggressive, so I can get my 3rd up" and fail to notice that they are also not aggressive at the same time. This time around they have to be though ...
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United States15275 Posts
On August 31 2013 03:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 02:40 Sabu113 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:39 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:37 Jer99 wrote:
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much Hence the fast 3rd CC aka more workers is de-facto standard in TvZ, eh :D? Zergs just never try new build orders mang. Well Terrans can sit relatively safely behind their wall-in to protect the 3rd CC while it is being built, BUT it has been a long time since I have seen a Baneling bust from a Zerg and once the production of Widow Mines is started in earnest the Terran takes over the momentum. Zerg simply have to stop that from happening by early aggression ... which is NOT the usual way they do it these days. Even trying to deny the natural base - CatZ proxy natural? hatch-cancel-evo-chamber? - would help to slow down those mines considerably. During WoL Zerg "had the initiative" and pulled the Terran's strings here and there with threats and small attacks, but with the Widow Mine the Terran can reverse this ... and Zerg havent noticed this general change in the flow of the game. They are still thinking "cool ... Terran isnt aggressive, so I can get my 3rd up" and fail to notice that they are also not aggressive at the same time. This time around they have to be though ...
Terrans have started to open with siege tanks to deter all possible busts. It doesn't hurt their widow mine production in the midgame and, depending on map position, considerably strengthens the midgame push.
Early aggression is not reliable in the matchup. It requires a fair bit of assumptions concerning build orders, and at that point you are simply flipping a coin.
You're completely wrong on the state of WoL. Zerg did not "have the initiative" in ZvT as much as the terran was forced to take initiative to avoid entering the late game in a disadvantageous position. The only player who played in the way you're describing was Life and that was due to his particular balance between drones/units. He was the one who popularized speedling timings, 10 pool opener, and various other aggressive strategies that no longer work in HotS. Other players like Leenock committed hard to counter-builds meant to exploit the standard hellion-banshee openers.
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On August 31 2013 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 03:15 Rabiator wrote:On August 31 2013 02:40 Sabu113 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:39 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:37 Jer99 wrote:
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much Hence the fast 3rd CC aka more workers is de-facto standard in TvZ, eh :D? Zergs just never try new build orders mang. Well Terrans can sit relatively safely behind their wall-in to protect the 3rd CC while it is being built, BUT it has been a long time since I have seen a Baneling bust from a Zerg and once the production of Widow Mines is started in earnest the Terran takes over the momentum. Zerg simply have to stop that from happening by early aggression ... which is NOT the usual way they do it these days. Even trying to deny the natural base - CatZ proxy natural? hatch-cancel-evo-chamber? - would help to slow down those mines considerably. During WoL Zerg "had the initiative" and pulled the Terran's strings here and there with threats and small attacks, but with the Widow Mine the Terran can reverse this ... and Zerg havent noticed this general change in the flow of the game. They are still thinking "cool ... Terran isnt aggressive, so I can get my 3rd up" and fail to notice that they are also not aggressive at the same time. This time around they have to be though ... Terrans have started to open with siege tanks to deter all possible busts. It doesn't hurt their widow mine production in the midgame and, depending on map position, considerably strengthens the midgame push. Early aggression is not reliable in the matchup. It requires a fair bit of assumptions concerning build orders, and at that point you are simply flipping a coin. You're completely wrong on the state of WoL. Zerg did not "have the initiative" in ZvT as much as the terran was forced to take initiative to avoid entering the late game in a disadvantageous position. The only player who played in the way you're describing was Life and that was due to his particular balance between drones/units. He was the one who popularized speedling timings, 10 pool opener, and various other aggressive strategies that no longer work in HotS. Other players like Leenock committed hard to counter-builds meant to exploit the standard hellion-banshee openers.
This reminds me of what happened in the beta/beginning of WoL. Zerg had to spend every resource to fighting the possible openers from Terran - 8/8 proxy rax reaper, 2rax bunker on bottom of ramp, thor-ship on cliff on lost temple, 1/1/1, 5 barracks behind a wall, etc. There were a huge number of openings, and a very unforgiving map pool that allowed those openings to remain unscouted and deal heavy damage to Zerg if not properly prepared for.
Zerg never learned the proper style, or proper builds; the Zerg options had already been exhausted. Rather, patches came in that allowed Zerg much more breathing room. Rax required supply depot, reaper build time went from 30 to 45 seconds, nitro packs require factory, lowered neutral supply depots were added to maps, roach range (and eventually queen range) went up, and the map pool changed dramatically.
This allowed Zerg to experiment with putting early pressure on T, having the potential for greedy openers as well as safe openers, and having multiple options for tech decisions.
ZvT in HotS is not even close to as bad as it was back in the pre-1.1.2 days, but I still feel like Zerg is forced into a tech path in an attempt to be cost-effective, with very little ability to use resources elsewhere.
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On August 31 2013 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 03:15 Rabiator wrote:On August 31 2013 02:40 Sabu113 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:39 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 22:37 Jer99 wrote:
Terran army is weak enough already in the early game, losing that potential supply to workers would hurt too much Hence the fast 3rd CC aka more workers is de-facto standard in TvZ, eh :D? Zergs just never try new build orders mang. Well Terrans can sit relatively safely behind their wall-in to protect the 3rd CC while it is being built, BUT it has been a long time since I have seen a Baneling bust from a Zerg and once the production of Widow Mines is started in earnest the Terran takes over the momentum. Zerg simply have to stop that from happening by early aggression ... which is NOT the usual way they do it these days. Even trying to deny the natural base - CatZ proxy natural? hatch-cancel-evo-chamber? - would help to slow down those mines considerably. During WoL Zerg "had the initiative" and pulled the Terran's strings here and there with threats and small attacks, but with the Widow Mine the Terran can reverse this ... and Zerg havent noticed this general change in the flow of the game. They are still thinking "cool ... Terran isnt aggressive, so I can get my 3rd up" and fail to notice that they are also not aggressive at the same time. This time around they have to be though ... Terrans have started to open with siege tanks to deter all possible busts. It doesn't hurt their widow mine production in the midgame and, depending on map position, considerably strengthens the midgame push. Early aggression is not reliable in the matchup. It requires a fair bit of assumptions concerning build orders, and at that point you are simply flipping a coin. You're completely wrong on the state of WoL. Zerg did not "have the initiative" in ZvT as much as the terran was forced to take initiative to avoid entering the late game in a disadvantageous position. The only player who played in the way you're describing was Life and that was due to his particular balance between drones/units. He was the one who popularized speedling timings, 10 pool opener, and various other aggressive strategies that no longer work in HotS. Other players like Leenock committed hard to counter-builds meant to exploit the standard hellion-banshee openers.
OK, so Terrans have a counter to the ground based busts. But what about aerial ones? Sure enough the two upgrades - especially Ventral Sacs - are hideously expensive, but no one actually tries if it could be worth it. Reducing the cost (mineral, gas AND time) of Ventral Sacs by 50% seems a fair deal and easy enough change to make to balance the matchup. Most Zerg wont do it anyways - as we can see from the "regular" not-research for burrow - so it wont really be that big of a change.
Zerg need to take back the initiative and there are two major changes in "general strategy" that are kinda required:
1. Frequent use of Baneling landmines on the not-covered-by-creep part of the map to add that paranoia to the Terran and make him waste his scan energy on potentially empty space.
2. Attacking the Factories in any way that seems feasible to them AND cost efficient. This has the goal of reducing the production of the "paranoia inducing Widow Mines" and giving Zerg more free reign over the map. With Widow Mines map control CAN lie heavily on the side of the Terran and this is the death sentence for the Zerg.
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In WoL there was a time when Terrans hadnt figured out that the only way to beat Zerg was to "not let them get there" (i.e. harrass at many places ASAP) to stop the Zerg economy and production capability from reaching their goal. That was the only way for a Terran to win and it is due to the terrible terrible design of the game.
There should be a possibility to fight another army on equal footing, but due to the reproduction advantage AND the mobility of Zerg that isnt possible. The mobility allows for superior Zerg numbers to be practically everywhere and overwhelm any less mobile partial armies of the opponent. Terrible design and the only way to solve it is to reduce the unit density for a battle ... limited unit selection with forced unit spreading and a reduced economy and production to keep the total number of units low. Sadly Blizzards devs really really REALLY dont understand the problem they have caused with their asymmetrical production boosts for the races on top of the asymmetrical production coupled with the auto-maximized unit density in the armies.
Several spells - and the maximized damage output of a clump of Hydras / bunch of Blink Stalkers / Marines - have equally made T3 units rather pointless ... apart from the Broodlord, which brings its own screen of constantly replenished free units which block the path to it and thus makes the clump pretty much invulnerable.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Early aggression works against Terrans who do not build Siege Tanks. That's it. By the time Zerg can "comfortably" attack into natural, meaning that they have their natural saturated and are getting a third, Terran already built 2+ Siege Tanks. If you attack beforehand, you are severely down on Drones and cannot recuperate well afterwards.
I have successfully busted several Terrans on ladder with Ling/Bling/Roach busts, first 100 gas on ling speed, 50 gas on bling nest, rest of the gas into 1/1 and then go all out on blings and roaches. However, if a Terran notices those slow Roaches making their way across the map, it's game over, 2 additional bunkers and a Siege Tank in production. By the time you bust in, those Bunkers will be completed and Siege Tank half-way done, once it is out, it's game over. I have seen Terrans cancel their Stimpack and switch Factory and Barracks places. Early aggression is a flip-coin. If Terran gets just one Siege Tank on the high ground, you're not going anywhere, you might force SCV evacuation and a lift-off, but by this time, you're already behind. This is accomplished by not losing those initial Hellions.
With that in mind, I'd like to focus on something else. Maps. There are currently only 2 maps in the map pool that have a decent open ground, new maps are atrocious. They are just "zerg-stompers". Too many narrow pathways and many of them promote allins from Zergs especially. I have been watching pro-streams lately and every Zerg, I mean every Zerg, busts on Frost (basically allin), there is no way you're going into mid-game on that map. Several others as well. Do you think the map-pool is giving other races an edge?
EDIT: Also, post above me regarding upgrades. Drops are 110 seconds research time on Lair tech. They are way too costly as well 200/200 if I remember correctly, and by the time you have drops, Terran has enough forces to fend off your drops, unless you're allining and willing to lose a bunch of Overlords.
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On August 31 2013 20:20 ysnake wrote:
With that in mind, I'd like to focus on something else. Maps. There are currently only 2 maps in the map pool that have a decent open ground, new maps are atrocious. They are just "zerg-stompers". Too many narrow pathways and many of them promote allins from Zergs especially. I have been watching pro-streams lately and every Zerg, I mean every Zerg, busts on Frost (basically allin), there is no way you're going into mid-game on that map. Several others as well. Do you think the map-pool is giving other races an edge?
Akilon Wastes:
I think that map is very balanced in ZvP, maybe a bit too strong for endgame swarm hosts, yet also quite strong for any form of 3-4 base Protoss play.
In ZvT I think it is a little Terran favored, because it is very hard to attack a Terran outside of a 2base bust, even with ultras out, due to the expansion setup.
Bel'Shir Vestige LE (2)
Well, that map is quite bad for Zerg imo. Too many paths/chokes make it extremly hard to engage and also extremly hard to take/hold a 4th base. The one big upside is that 2base roach/baneling busts work very well in TvZ, because it is easy to avoid the hellions with zerglings and thus morph banelings in close proximity + the rush distance for roaches is quite short.
Derelict Watcher TE (2)
ZvP it is kind of weird, because it is really hard for Protoss to get anything going because the map is so open. On the flipside it is also quite hard to get a 4th as zerg and swarm hosts are very bad, which makes the map kind of Z>P for as long as P doesn't have a huge deathball and P>Z once P acquires a deathball that the more mobile zerg compositions (Ultra, roach/hydra...) can't deal with. ZvT it is quite OK imo, maybe even a tiny bit zerg favored. The 4th is kind of hard to hold, but it is doable.
Polar Night LE (2)
Not quite sure, but I think if properly played Zerg has an advantage over Protoss in a macro game, yet 2base Protoss pushes look damn scary on it. And Terran should have an advantage over Zerg due to the rush distance.
Yeonsu LE (2)
ZvP not sure. Very choky, but I think swarm hosts will be amazing on this map. ZvT I think it is rather easy to defend drops, which I think doesn't matter too much because paradepushing looks amazingly strong on that map. Maybe a possible map for ling/bling/infestor or ling/bling/hydra and broodlord/infestor?
Frost LE (4)
ZvP I think it should favor Zerg because it is big and open without an easy third for Protoss. ZvT it looks very good for drops and holding a 4th looks like a nightmare. The middle area with the watchtowers might be good for stopping a paradepush however.
Whirlwind LE (4)
I think it is safe to say that Z has an advantage vs Protoss here. In TvZ earlygame it is quite good for zerg, but in lategame it is a nightmare against drops and I think Terran has an edge overall.
I think the mappool is quite fine and has gotten a little better than last season.
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On August 31 2013 20:20 ysnake wrote:
Early aggression works against Terrans who do not build Siege Tanks. That's it. By the time Zerg can "comfortably" attack into natural, meaning that they have their natural saturated and are getting a third, Terran already built 2+ Siege Tanks. If you attack beforehand, you are severely down on Drones and cannot recuperate well afterwards.
I have successfully busted several Terrans on ladder with Ling/Bling/Roach busts, first 100 gas on ling speed, 50 gas on bling nest, rest of the gas into 1/1 and then go all out on blings and roaches. However, if a Terran notices those slow Roaches making their way across the map, it's game over, 2 additional bunkers and a Siege Tank in production. By the time you bust in, those Bunkers will be completed and Siege Tank half-way done, once it is out, it's game over. I have seen Terrans cancel their Stimpack and switch Factory and Barracks places. Early aggression is a flip-coin. If Terran gets just one Siege Tank on the high ground, you're not going anywhere, you might force SCV evacuation and a lift-off, but by this time, you're already behind. This is accomplished by not losing those initial Hellions.
With that in mind, I'd like to focus on something else. Maps. There are currently only 2 maps in the map pool that have a decent open ground, new maps are atrocious. They are just "zerg-stompers". Too many narrow pathways and many of them promote allins from Zergs especially. I have been watching pro-streams lately and every Zerg, I mean every Zerg, busts on Frost (basically allin), there is no way you're going into mid-game on that map. Several others as well. Do you think the map-pool is giving other races an edge?
EDIT: Also, post above me regarding upgrades. Drops are 110 seconds research time on Lair tech. They are way too costly as well 200/200 if I remember correctly, and by the time you have drops, Terran has enough forces to fend off your drops, unless you're allining and willing to lose a bunch of Overlords.
If the map is too open they are too good for Zerg, if they have too many chokes they are too good for the other two races. The focus on massive armies really enlarges this problem and it gets made even worse by the existence of potentially mass-useable "crowd control spells" like Forcefield and Fungal. Its not like the two casters are Tier 3 and cost 350 gas like the Arbiter (the one unit with a CC spell in BW) did in BW ... and they have smartcast too.
I really hope we can get a reduction for the costs of Ventral Sacs, because that would make Zerg more flexible. Even though they are the only race with a regularly used large airforce (Protoss air is kinda random and sometimes late game) their army is usually stuck on the ground. Since the game is supposed to go faster and faster its only fair to reduce that research time too, because two minutes is simply too much. The only danger I see is ZvP, because an early drop could be "undefendable" by Protoss, because they are usually not building any cannons as base defense and Stalkers are few in numbers to shoot down a significant number of incoming Overlords with stuff in them.
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Aligulac is looking great, worst is PvZ with 3% off 50% and with so few games (and hence variance), it's a really great result. Two months in a row of the game being as balanced as one could hope for.
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Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines?
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On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines?
Massive units - like Ultralisks - have large number of hit points. They are
a) not affected as much by the large damage of the mine and
b) probably a reason why the mine deals so much damage. Something like "drop a couple of Widow Mines below the Broodlords and burrow them instantly" ...
The problem isnt the unit stats but rather the amount of them being built - just like it was for the Infestor - and the easiest solution would be to require a Tech lab instead of a simple Reactor for them.
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On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines?
Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache.
Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 02 2013 15:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:41 hansonslee wrote:
Hmm... I actually have an idea.
Why not make massive units immune to Widow Mines? Why not leave the widow mine nerfs, as it is already a unit that isn't doing a lot in TvZ and TvP and maybe focus on what is really giving Zerg a headache. Like, look at the production tab, look at the pictures, count the units. And then tell me again it's the mine that is limiting Zerg to only playing ling/bling/mutalisk/ultralisk: + Show Spoiler +
So much effort to ask for a marine nerf while the top of the pro scene looks as balanced as it could be hoped to be.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iP79h8Z.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5JuYIOi.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KMIeUoZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/otrMNTh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FmftKnF.jpg)
