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On August 30 2013 14:23 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:25 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 02:18 Rabiator wrote:On August 30 2013 02:01 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 30 2013 00:11 Big J wrote:On August 29 2013 23:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 29 2013 23:26 bo1b wrote:On August 29 2013 23:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 29 2013 22:56 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
But making those changes wouldn't remove that possibility, it would just take more skill, be more interesting to play, be more interesting to watch, and would allow people to play against the cooldown that the swarmhosts would have. Sort of like how zergs send in a zergling to bait siege tank fire. Locusts already have high DPS. They do twice as much base DPS as a marine. Locust health doesn't really play into the unit being too strong as a siege unit unless you mean lategame ZvZ. Everything else would be nice but compensating for troublesome design in the first place. And we haven't even talked about how poor SH synergy is with the basic zerg cast. You're probably right, I think I'm just clutching at straws in hope of a change towards more interesting units, and less a-movy units/boring units like the collosus/voidray/tempest/swarmhost/marauder/roach/hellbat etc You shouldn't have played SC2 in the first place. ;] Or generally any RTS games. There is basically no RTS game out there that has units that are really interesting in themselves. It's the unit relations that make units interesting. E.g. a Siege Tank in itself is not really an interesting unit. It can move, attack and siege. If my basic units have bigger range than the Siege Tank the relations simply won't make tankplay interesting. Or marine micro is only possible for as long as the marine has high speed and superior range to his enemies. The moment you fight marines against other singlefire units with similar speed and range it becomes nothing but an amove battle. etc. Broodwar Ghost, Broodwar Queen, Broodwar Defiler, Science Vessel all interesting  yeah, that's true. Spellcasters have a quite easier time being inherently interesting. Though again, Ghost and Queen weren't used that much due to lacking useful interactions against a lot of units/compositions. Spellcasters in SC2 have become less interesting due to the fact that they are a "mass unit". There was no smartcast in BW and thus you didnt have "blanket storms" across whole armies; each storm actually meant something AND took a bit of effort/skill on the part of the user, because you had to select one unit and use it. I would also add any units that required skill to use to the exciting ones and Reaver drops and 2-group Mutalisk could belong in that group. Another exciting/entertaining group of units is completely missing from SC2 and those are the "comical relief" ones: Spider Mines and Reaver shot .... which were both capable of "aaaahhhh" and "awwwwww" moments. "Imperfect" unit pathing made these two units / abilities rather unpredictable and thus exciting as a lottery. as always, predictable post that doesn't really respond to the topic I was talking about and just tries to force a discussion about SC2 game mechanisms. As predictable as your post which totally ignores the influence of game mechanics on a unit being exciting. If the game mechanics are so unimportant why dont you PROVE THAT and make me shut up? If you cant you might want to shut up yourself with these comments about "game mechanics being irrelevant to the discussion".
my post ignores the gamemechanics because they have not been the topic. I was saying that spellcasters are inherently more interesting than other units. your comment about you not liking smartcast has nothing to do with it.
I didnt say shut up, I said you should stay on topic.
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On August 30 2013 14:23 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 03:36 fdsdfg wrote:
Currently, 4M (in TvZ) has a proper answer for pretty much anything Z can do. Having a flexible army which can deal with many / all things is a requirement, because otherwise the game would be pretty boring by determining wins through "build order losses" only. Those are the worst kinds of losses and have nothing to do with actual playing skill. You also need to remember - in your Zerg point of view - that Terran does not have the flexibility to change production as much as Zerg has. The Zerg can switch from Zerglings/Roaches to a massive number of Mutalisks in one cycle, but Terrans are actually very limited in what they can "mass produce" with Reactors. Casters have always used "thats an army he cant lose" when they are talking about a mech army and getting a high Siege Tank count is hard while losing it is easy. Mech also does not really have a decent AA unit because the Thor is pretty much rubbish ... unless you play against a noob who clumps his Mutalisks. Even the single-target AA of the Thor (12 dps) deals less damage than a Goliath (20 damage every 22 frames with the usual playing speed at 30 frames per second or so) from BW. Zerg usually dont need a flexible army, because they are dictating the pace. Lately though Zerg have lost the initiative against bio due to the "scare factor" of the Widow Mine and have been limited in their freedom of movement. They need to find some way to get back this freedom to go and threaten where they choose and personally I think attacking Factories or Contaminating them is a good way to start too. Limit the production of the WIdow Mine at all costs and in any way you can manage. The easiest way to adjust the Widow Mine production to a lower number would be to fiddle around with the production speed, BUT Terrans could just build an additional Factory and simply get the same production again. The only change would be the early game and that is not a way to "fix the problem". Cost seems to be the real solution and increasing the cost from 25 to 50 gas might do the trick ... although an increase of 100% for the gas is pretty radical. Changing the trigger time of the mine or reducing its attack seem like bad suggestions, because they will nerf the mine in small and acceptable numbers AND it is too much luck based already. The solution has to be adjusting the amount of mines produced and we are currently in the same phase as we were when Zergs just built 25+ Infestors and won easily with Fungals and Infested Terrans. Reducing the damage AND the cooldown (to try and keep the power level at the same level) makes the unit too much like a Siege Tank AND it becomes too good due to being able to fire more often; the current high damage is total overkill on Zerglings and Banelings. Once again we seem to be at a spot where the problem really exists only because of the number of units built and the super high concentration of units due to autoclumping and unlimited unit selection. Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 02:25 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 02:18 Rabiator wrote:On August 30 2013 02:01 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 01:48 NarutO wrote:On August 30 2013 00:11 Big J wrote:On August 29 2013 23:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 29 2013 23:26 bo1b wrote:On August 29 2013 23:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 29 2013 22:56 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
But making those changes wouldn't remove that possibility, it would just take more skill, be more interesting to play, be more interesting to watch, and would allow people to play against the cooldown that the swarmhosts would have. Sort of like how zergs send in a zergling to bait siege tank fire. Locusts already have high DPS. They do twice as much base DPS as a marine. Locust health doesn't really play into the unit being too strong as a siege unit unless you mean lategame ZvZ. Everything else would be nice but compensating for troublesome design in the first place. And we haven't even talked about how poor SH synergy is with the basic zerg cast. You're probably right, I think I'm just clutching at straws in hope of a change towards more interesting units, and less a-movy units/boring units like the collosus/voidray/tempest/swarmhost/marauder/roach/hellbat etc You shouldn't have played SC2 in the first place. ;] Or generally any RTS games. There is basically no RTS game out there that has units that are really interesting in themselves. It's the unit relations that make units interesting. E.g. a Siege Tank in itself is not really an interesting unit. It can move, attack and siege. If my basic units have bigger range than the Siege Tank the relations simply won't make tankplay interesting. Or marine micro is only possible for as long as the marine has high speed and superior range to his enemies. The moment you fight marines against other singlefire units with similar speed and range it becomes nothing but an amove battle. etc. Broodwar Ghost, Broodwar Queen, Broodwar Defiler, Science Vessel all interesting yeah, that's true. Spellcasters have a quite easier time being inherently interesting. Though again, Ghost and Queen weren't used that much due to lacking useful interactions against a lot of units/compositions. Spellcasters in SC2 have become less interesting due to the fact that they are a "mass unit". There was no smartcast in BW and thus you didnt have "blanket storms" across whole armies; each storm actually meant something AND took a bit of effort/skill on the part of the user, because you had to select one unit and use it. I would also add any units that required skill to use to the exciting ones and Reaver drops and 2-group Mutalisk could belong in that group. Another exciting/entertaining group of units is completely missing from SC2 and those are the "comical relief" ones: Spider Mines and Reaver shot .... which were both capable of "aaaahhhh" and "awwwwww" moments. "Imperfect" unit pathing made these two units / abilities rather unpredictable and thus exciting as a lottery. as always, predictable post that doesn't really respond to the topic I was talking about and just tries to force a discussion about SC2 game mechanisms. As predictable as your post which totally ignores the influence of game mechanics on a unit being exciting. If the game mechanics are so unimportant why dont you PROVE THAT and make me shut up? If you cant you might want to shut up yourself with these comments about "game mechanics being irrelevant to the discussion".
seriously it's not our fault, it's yours. how many people have complained about your posts already
you had been off topic, talking things that aren't related or even stating a problem that isn't even regarded as a problem (especially with unit density, which is balanced by production rate and tech level)
then you complained zerg isn't doing things right, not attacking the production facilities and suggest they should do roach drops? (which then you says you are enlightening the zerg players as if you know the game better than the pro zergs?)
watching trap plays against reality with his HT drops and flanking with HTs was the "aahhhhhh" moments.
watching symbol preparing and waiting for the baneling landmines was the "aaahhhhh" moments"
watching symbol muta getting trapped by keen's marines spread was amazing as well.
perfect unit pathing has its great moments, just stop keep with repeating your points about mass economy, mass production, unit pathing etc and ignoring what sc2 is actually offering
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Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles.
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On August 30 2013 15:25 Scones wrote:
Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles.
Or ... You could arrange BO and composition transitions around the viper or Infestor.
Given their recent buffs, I don't think it's impossible to mix in 6-8 vipers in muta/ling/bling or investors in roach/hydra, and so on.
Yes it takes effort to innovate but at least Z players have the benefit of working new compositions because of buffs rather than nerfs like the T and P community.
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On August 30 2013 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 15:25 Scones wrote:
Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles. Or ... You could arrange BO and composition transitions around the viper or Infestor. Given their recent buffs, I don't think it's impossible to mix in 6-8 vipers in muta/ling/bling or investors in roach/hydra, and so on. Yes it takes effort to innovate but at least Z players have the benefit of working new compositions because of buffs rather than nerfs like the T and P community.
"Given their recent buffs"? What buffs? Faster overseers?
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On August 30 2013 16:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 30 2013 15:25 Scones wrote:
Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles. Or ... You could arrange BO and composition transitions around the viper or Infestor. Given their recent buffs, I don't think it's impossible to mix in 6-8 vipers in muta/ling/bling or investors in roach/hydra, and so on. Yes it takes effort to innovate but at least Z players have the benefit of working new compositions because of buffs rather than nerfs like the T and P community. "Given their recent buffs"? What buffs? Faster overseers?
Yes, the overseer buff. You also got the spore buff  But you should also see the hellbat nerf as a buff to Z as you can play greedier during the timing when it hit.
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On August 30 2013 17:04 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 16:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 30 2013 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 30 2013 15:25 Scones wrote:
Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles. Or ... You could arrange BO and composition transitions around the viper or Infestor. Given their recent buffs, I don't think it's impossible to mix in 6-8 vipers in muta/ling/bling or investors in roach/hydra, and so on. Yes it takes effort to innovate but at least Z players have the benefit of working new compositions because of buffs rather than nerfs like the T and P community. "Given their recent buffs"? What buffs? Faster overseers? Yes, the overseer buff. You also got the spore buff But you should also see the hellbat nerf as a buff to Z as you can play greedier during the timing when it hit.
I dont see how the overseer buff suddenly allows vipers to be put in with muta/ling/bling (or even the usefulness of them) or infestors into roach/hydra. The spore buff literally effected only ZvZ. I don't even understand your thought process, it feels like you just wanted to try and jab at the fact that zergs arent getting nerfed while other races potentially are (or have, in the case of hellbats)
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You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually.
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On August 30 2013 17:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 17:04 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 30 2013 16:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 30 2013 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 30 2013 15:25 Scones wrote:
Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles. Or ... You could arrange BO and composition transitions around the viper or Infestor. Given their recent buffs, I don't think it's impossible to mix in 6-8 vipers in muta/ling/bling or investors in roach/hydra, and so on. Yes it takes effort to innovate but at least Z players have the benefit of working new compositions because of buffs rather than nerfs like the T and P community. "Given their recent buffs"? What buffs? Faster overseers? Yes, the overseer buff. You also got the spore buff But you should also see the hellbat nerf as a buff to Z as you can play greedier during the timing when it hit. I dont see how the overseer buff suddenly allows vipers to be put in with muta/ling/bling (or even the usefulness of them) or infestors into roach/hydra. The spore buff literally effected only ZvZ. I don't even understand your thought process, it feels like you just wanted to try and jab at the fact that zergs arent getting nerfed while other races potentially are (or have, in the case of hellbats)
Indeed it was a jab, but it wasn't me who said that zergs aren't getting nerfed. I just made fun of your claim that zergs aren't being buffed. They are. And if you want to make an argument based on the interaction of the current buffs with specific instances of your innovation, you need to say it, instead of assuming that the listeners magically know what happens inside your head.
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On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually.
They took that change out and are instead trying ultralisks +50hp (which likely wont happen either)
On August 30 2013 17:38 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 17:10 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 30 2013 17:04 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 30 2013 16:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 30 2013 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 30 2013 15:25 Scones wrote:
Problem: It is difficult for zerg to tech up to hive, when trading with marine/marauder/mine/medivac
Solution: Make hive upgradable with any of zergs tier 2 structures(Infectation Pit, Nydus Network, Hydralisk Den, Spire) instead of just Infestation Pit
Side Effects: Zerg will have more options in all matchups. Might encourage Nydus Worm usage in all 3 match ups which will encourage more creative styles. Or ... You could arrange BO and composition transitions around the viper or Infestor. Given their recent buffs, I don't think it's impossible to mix in 6-8 vipers in muta/ling/bling or investors in roach/hydra, and so on. Yes it takes effort to innovate but at least Z players have the benefit of working new compositions because of buffs rather than nerfs like the T and P community. "Given their recent buffs"? What buffs? Faster overseers? Yes, the overseer buff. You also got the spore buff But you should also see the hellbat nerf as a buff to Z as you can play greedier during the timing when it hit. I dont see how the overseer buff suddenly allows vipers to be put in with muta/ling/bling (or even the usefulness of them) or infestors into roach/hydra. The spore buff literally effected only ZvZ. I don't even understand your thought process, it feels like you just wanted to try and jab at the fact that zergs arent getting nerfed while other races potentially are (or have, in the case of hellbats) Indeed it was a jab, but it wasn't me who said that zergs aren't getting nerfed. I just made fun of your claim that zergs aren't being buffed. They are. And if you want to make an argument based on the interaction of the current buffs with specific instances of your innovation, you need to say it, instead of assuming that the listeners magically know what happens inside your head.
My bad, thought you were hattori... its late (so when you read my response, bear in mind that I thought I was responding to somebody mentioning vipers with muta/ling/bling etc). I never said that zergs werent getting buffed, just wondered what buffs he was talking about since overseer buff is in no way relevant to what he was saying.
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On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually.
they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks.
but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot.
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viper blinding cloud duration reduced from 14s to 8s
viper blinding cloud aoe radius increased from 2 to 3
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On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot.
Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game.
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On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game.
That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is:
1) how to get there without getting killed in the process
2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation
3) how to not die to drops once you get there
Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins.
I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point.
They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively).
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On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively).
while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones.
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On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones.
Mutas literally don't get 1 shot by WM's.
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On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones.
10:00 4th is really late one for ecocheese, i recall Soulkey if he was not going shenanigans he would get it at 9:30 and earlier. After all 3rd CC on 25 supply is kind-of-ecocheese too, right :D? Both Keen and Bomber lost those games because of horrible engagement that allowed for Symbol to go and kill Keen there, while Bomber got his 4th denied and lost all the momentum the parade push is supposed to have and it snowballed in muta count (around 50 mutas near end of that game).
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On August 30 2013 21:22 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones. Mutas literally don't get 1 shot by WM's.
sure they do?! obv not all of them but you lose 1 muta everytime they eat a shot to single target damage. thats why i wrote "you lose mutas here and there"
On August 30 2013 21:32 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones. 10:00 4th is really late one for ecocheese, i recall Soulkey if he was not going shenanigans he would get it at 9:30 and earlier. After all 3rd CC on 25 supply is kind-of-ecocheese too, right :D? Both Keen and Bomber lost those games because of horrible engagement that allowed for Symbol to go and kill Keen there, while Bomber got his 4th denied and lost all the momentum the parade push is supposed to have and it snowballed in muta count (around 50 mutas near end of that game).
really? do have a VOD of that 9:30 4th by soulkey? would be interesting. also did soulkey also go up to nearly 100 drones or just for the gas?
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On August 30 2013 21:22 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:19 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 30 2013 20:20 Big J wrote:On August 30 2013 19:40 Vanadiel wrote:On August 30 2013 17:59 Decendos wrote:On August 30 2013 17:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
You forget they recently been buffed (in test server) to start with full energy.
It will happen eventually. they said it wont happen since it was too strong of a buff in ZvP with viper based all ins. their thought process in the first place is bad. "let blinding cloud suck against mobile armies and not affect WMs...but at least give Z more clouds at the start and obv also more abducts for all ins". like wtf are they thinking? just buff the cloud vs mobile armies already and nerf it vs immobile ones, especially tanks. although imo the better solution would be to just buff blinding cloud vs mobile ones and buff tanks. but then again viper would be hivetech with 200 gas...Z needs buffs in midgame since lategame itself looks broken but only because midgame makes Z not go even in lategame with T. so finally buff stuff like hydras, SHs, nydus, ovidrop (i was so mad they introduced overseerspeedbuff and let ovis be slow as shit) would help a lot. Zerg doesn't go into late game because it's not worth it to move out of muta ling bane since it's the only composition giving you the chance to gain momentum with mass mutalisk. If late game unit are buffed it might be worth it to transition into late game. That's simply not true. Infestor, Ultralisk, Broodlord are all better on paper than ling/bling based play. The questions that zerg builds however have to answer is: 1) how to get there without getting killed in the process 2) how to get there without finding yourself up in a 3-4 base vs 5-6 base situation 3) how to not die to drops once you get there Like some of the best play I have seen that got there has been from Scarlett. And her typical approach (ling/bling/muta-->ultra-->infestor-->broodlord) takes roughly around 25-30mins. I do believe that you can get there as zerg, but you really have to be willing to play such a long game and put all your eggs in one basket, something that Progamers are simply not comfortable doing as it makes them very predictable. And it takes a very long time to refine a 20+ min Build Order and might not be worth it as it may just happen that you hit a wall at some point. They are on paper but muta-ling-bane essentially allows you to swing momentum right back to you without giving terran too many chances to recover, if you manage to win at least 1 engagement. We have seen this pretty much happening in Keen vs Symbol and Scarlett vs Bomber (games on derelict and whirlwind respectively). while you are right that IF you get to mass muta AND win a fight very decisive THEN you have the momentum and can win the game right there. but right now getting to mass muta is insanely hard since WMs 1 shot them and even the best of the best lose mutas here and there + you need lots of banes. symbol vs keen is a bad example since symbol did an insane ecocheese with 10:00 4th into 96 drones. that allowed him to make insane amount of lings, put all gas in mutas with only few banes at beginning + superfast 8 gas = much easier to get mass muta than in a more standard, non-eco cheese kind of way with later 4th and 75 drones. Mutas literally don't get 1 shot by WM's.
WM 1-shots one muta at a time, rest get splash damage. You need 3 shots in a course of 30 s to instagib ~10 muta flock.
Considering the cost of widow mine its damn effective. But even then, I don't believe WM is an issue. The unit has its own drawbacks (Immobile, short range and friendly fire).
Blizzard needs to look at other things. Maybe buff contaminate, decrease its cost to 75 energy. It will force more clever play from both players.
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