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On August 23 2011 05:13 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
1. Terrible and wont solve anything. Why? If they go 1-1-1, why would you go for storm? You will auto lose to cloak banshee. If you invest into robo tech and storm tech, it will drain so much of your gas that you will probably not even get out HT in time (consider the wait time for HT energy as well). You are going to have alot of zealots due to the surplus of mineral and wont have any anti air. Your only hope is that 2 or 3 archon at the most. Also if he scout you going for this build, he wont go raven, he will just get more banshee. Dont forget, he will pull scv to repair as well so your feedback wont kill if they burn their energy cloaking back and forth.
You obviously don't seem to realise that the large problem with 1-1-1 is still the marines, if you can kill the marines, the other stuff isn't so hard to deal with, but the timing it hits prevent you from getting more than one colossi with thermal (needed or else they will die to the banshees/tanks) or storm at its current time. Also just having the high templar to prevent him from going raven would actually be a good thing because then you could actually build more than a couple of stalkers in attempt to combat the banshees.
2. Being able to get a cheaper and faster charge will literally break the game. Zerglings will become useless and +1 timing attack with zealots would wreck zerg. This will push PvZ into a linear state of massing roaches instead of the recent more diverse strategy of getting lings and infestors. Also, with the recent buff to archon, faster chargelots + archon will become ridiculously crazy strong.
Wow you have such a terribly narrow mindset.
For one builds like this would be insanely easy to scout.
Roaches do great against zealots, I really don't think you would have to mass them particularly hard, which would pretty much deter any Protoss from trying this build in the first place.
Banelings do significant damage to zealots.
Then there's spine crawlers which zealots are pretty terrible against, which you could defend with and abuse the fact that zealots can't shoot up and their low stalker numbers with mutas.
3. If stalker attack speed is going to be increase to accommodate all the stuff you said, then they are going to literally break PvZ. Gateway unit suck by themselves but exponentially get better once they get paired up with each other. By increasing stalker like this, you will once again destroy PvZ if they are to become as strong as you suggest. Since PvZ is stalker heavy composition. It will also make collosi stronger because corruptors also sucks compare to viking at dealing with collosi and if the stalker have higher DPS, the corruptor will die in even stupider fashion. This make the protoss deathball exponentially stronger because stalker are stronger and collosi become harder to kill.
I stated that the damage to armoured would be similar or slightly higher. Note the word similar, meaning that this would not or would barely affect the damage that stalkers would do to corrupters and invalidates you whole point.
Also you said as strong as I suggest. Maybe you didn't notice but I didn't actually suggest a specific increase, I just said that it should be changed, because specifics such as this cannot figured out with just theory, they have to be tested. My aim is to suggest possibilities WHERE changes should be made, not to just straight up make suggestions as to what should be done (except suggestion 4).
4. Switching the PDD and SM will kill the raven role in the 1-1-1 and they will just do the variation without the raven. Once again, solves nothing but kill another possible variation. Raven already neglected enough, doubt they will see the light of day if SM and PDD get switch. I would rather get a reactor than a techlab on my starport in TvT if that was the case.
At least you can scout the variations without the raven with an observer and can adequately prepare for the correct all in(As adequately as possible anyway, most cases the Terran will still steamroll the Protoss). Protoss doesn't have any other way to efficiently scout which one is coming. Hallucination is too expensive in this situation and costs a lot of much needed FF energy.
*Edit: Also I think Terrans would lose a lot less lategame TvZ's if they invested in the Raven to counter burrowed banelings.
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On August 23 2011 16:57 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:14 SeaSwift wrote:On August 23 2011 15:26 SheaR619 wrote:
Why does the tier matter? Like it or not, in broodwar protoss mass zealots and dragoon (both tier 1) against terran who had to mech and all that tech was tier 2+ how you think they felt? It doesnt matter what tech they are or what tier they are. You know how protoss deal with this? They just made more dragoon and more zealots just like how terran are now with marauder and marine. The role has reversed. It doesnt matter what kind of tech, sometime the answer is to just have more stuff. I don't see it like BW at all. Zealots/Dragoons lasted a short while, but then Reavers and Carriers had to be used instead. The response to mech from Protoss was not "herp derp make more units". In fact, one of the reasons why Terran went for Goliaths was because of Carriers. Those Goliaths (T2 units) were a response to Carriers (T3) units. Just one example of why it wasn't that simple in BW. Oh, also, the reason why the Tier matters is because there are certain timings which hit before AoE is out for Protoss, like the 1-1-1, which cannot be handled effectively. If Protoss had earlier AoE that wouldn't be a problem. Not saying that's the solution but it's a plausible one. Carrier was one of the possible tech path that you could of gone but it not mandatory. You can easily stick with dragoon and zealots but you got to add in arbiter and do recall to do damage/abuse mobility and statis tanks once the mech count get to high. Also going carrier depend on map too if you want best result you dont go them every game. Your response sounds like protoss MUST go carrier or reaver to deal with mech and that absolutely false. So in a way, it is exactly like how it is now. Medivac = Arbiter (drop/recall and similar tier). The main reason terran goes for gollaith was to stop shuttle zealots bomb on tanks not because of carriers. They only make a few and if they see carrier tech, they will make alot of golliath. Once golliath are out, reaver are not that great because shuttle become liability. Reaver and carrier were not necessary. Then late late game they can choose to get HT for storm which has a similar role to ghost. But the stable late game unit composition of a standard TvP would be zealot, dragoon, arbiter and HT generally. Looks very similar to marine marauder ghost medivac does it not? Large count of tier 1 unit combine with higher support units. Also protoss must abuse terran immobility and out expand him therefore he can out produce him (aka "make more stuff"). Iono about you, but the similarity of how the match has twisted is kinda funny. Terran uses to have the immobile unit composition, turtle, and do one big push while protoss has the mobile, can never engage once the mech ball get to big so they had to do drop and rely on tier 1 as back bone and have to out expand the terran. Now it swapped. Tier matter but people shouldnt be whining that just because they have tier 3 unit and it dies to a ton of tier 1 units that it imbalance. I am just trying to say that tier is hard to define and should not really be used to as a way to define balance. Like what is a thor? Tier 2? Tier 3? Tier 2.5? Viking tier 3? Expecially terran is where tier get hard to define.
The way you describe BW (I didn't play it) it sure doesn't sound like the roles were switched. Terran can straight up engage the protoss ball and come out on top as long as you hit a few EMPs and kite well. And ghosts are not a late late game unit. They're a mid game unit. TBH I think a 3/3 MMMVG ball beats a 3/3/ say 2 zealot/archon/collosus/HT/sentry/stalker ball because you will be able to hit the important part of the protoss ball with EMPs (zealot/archon which charges straight at you [ghosts in the back]). Storm on the other hand not only has the potential to be entirely shut down by spot on ghost play, EMPing at the edge of range, but even not EMP'd it's incredibly hard to land storms on a 3+ speed bio ball kiting backwards. They're never stationary and very fast; a storm is more likely to hurt your zealots. Solutions include warp prism play (but IMO that is too weak to a skilled terran who can stim a group of marines/target fire with ghosts) and pulling back your zealots and luring the bio ball into storm range. To me the stats just look like if the terran plays perfectly and the protoss plays perfectly, the terran will come out ahead even against the "deathball"
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I want to preface this post by saying that this is how I view the race compositions now. It's my opinion, I'm by no means a pro, so don't take it seriously. But this is why I feel the game is a bit screwed up. I've lumped units into class equivalencies, which I consider to be the roles the units play in army compositions. So here's my breakdown, none of which is set in stone, but it's just how I see things:
T1
Marine>Zelaot=Zerglings
Marine has ranged attack, can kite, and stimpack + health upgrades along with their usual ground army upgrades, so they sit as the better unit. Zealots charge is IMO on par with ling speed as far as usefulness goes, and you get 4 lings for the price of one z, so pretty even with each other.
Roach=Marauder>Stalker
Roaches and Marauders are by far the most antagonizing forces in their races armies. Conc shells and stim ability puts marauders on par with a Roach's ability to tank damage and move while burrowed, and though blink is useful, stalkers are just too weak in the DPS vs cost department in comparison.
Sentry>Baneling=Reaper
Forcefiled is probably the most important early game spell in the game, and so bumps up the ranking of sentries over the other T1 units of similar scope. Banelings are huge in ZvT and ZvZ, not so much in ZvP, and they die after use, so they are about equal with the harass potential reapers have.
T2
Hellions>Hydralisks
Pretty straighforward. Notice the lack of protoss unit for comparison.
Tanks>Immortal
Longer range, better harass potential, faster... pretty self-explainitory. Notice a lack of zerg unit filling the role of "field artillery".
Ghost=Infestor>HT
EMP fucks toss up, snipe fucks zerg up, AND the unit can cloak and nuke. Plus, it's the only one of the three that can attack sans energy. On the other side, fungal is probably the most OP spell in the game, and infested terran mineral line spawning is brutally effective. By comparison, HTs feedback and storm capabilities are mitigated by fast-moving armies, slow-moving HTs, and the removel of amulet (not to mention storm needing to be researched, and the fact that HTs are actually T3 units), and archon warp just consumes two expensive units for an OK tanking unit.
Mutalisk>Viking=Phoenix
Mutalisk wins, for sheer harass potential. Viking and phoenix on par, mostly balanced by phoenix speed vs viking ability to attack ground without a spell.
Banshee>Voidray>Corruptor
Banshees and voidrays both have massive harass skills, but since rays get nerfed seemingly non-stop, the edge goes to banshees with cloaking. Corruptors obviously have a hard time measuring up to the usefulness of the other two units.
Medivac>Warpprism=Overlord
Medivacs are crucial. Prisms and transporting overlords aren't. Prisms rarely see use, and nydus renders using overlords for tansport inefficient (sometimes but not always). As such, the rating stays as is.
T3
Broodlord>Carrier>Battlecruiser
Not hard to convince people that this sequence seems to fit.
Colossus>Thor>Ultralisk
Colossi are probably the only time Protoss have a big advantage in a unit set, as they just destroy T1 units with great range (after upgrade). Thors are ranked better than ultras for their ability to do well against air, and their overall versatility compratively.
Units not fitting a specific role
Dark Templar
Basically the only "real" harassing unit the protoss have. Pretty good, but when matched against other races for harass potential, they generally lose out. Also, after detection is available, no longer have much purpose.
Mothership
An expensive novelty unit, nothing more.
Archon
Decent tanks, but really weak to EMP and very expensive/time consuming to produce. As far as last ditch efforts to make use of energy-depleted HT or detected DTs, they are decent, but not game breaking, and usually not viable for sustained play, especially lategame when gas is rare.
Observer
IMO fills a similar role to the queen, in that it's a unit needed to manage the protoss forces rather than actually fight in army compositions. Not a good substitute for scanning though...
Raven
PDD and auto-turret are retardly good for harassment, especially when upgraded. The fact that ravens have become more common as big parts of new builds is a big indication of its power.
Queen
Critical unit, almost more of a part of the zerg base rather than a unit. Pretty shitty in a fight outside of rush/cheese defense.
Overseer
Novelties, needed for detection or some off the wall play, but not much else.
Conclusion
Wtf, why is terran not being nerfed (IMO)?
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Mutas are better harassment options than Blue Flame Hellions. You only need a wall/1 turret/1 spore/1 cannon to stop BFH. The amount of units a Terran has to leave at home to defend Mutas past the 15 minute mark is about 2 thors, 16 marines and 1 or 2 medivacs.
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On August 23 2011 16:57 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 16:14 SeaSwift wrote:On August 23 2011 15:26 SheaR619 wrote:
Why does the tier matter? Like it or not, in broodwar protoss mass zealots and dragoon (both tier 1) against terran who had to mech and all that tech was tier 2+ how you think they felt? It doesnt matter what tech they are or what tier they are. You know how protoss deal with this? They just made more dragoon and more zealots just like how terran are now with marauder and marine. The role has reversed. It doesnt matter what kind of tech, sometime the answer is to just have more stuff. I don't see it like BW at all. Zealots/Dragoons lasted a short while, but then Reavers and Carriers had to be used instead. The response to mech from Protoss was not "herp derp make more units". In fact, one of the reasons why Terran went for Goliaths was because of Carriers. Those Goliaths (T2 units) were a response to Carriers (T3) units. Just one example of why it wasn't that simple in BW. Oh, also, the reason why the Tier matters is because there are certain timings which hit before AoE is out for Protoss, like the 1-1-1, which cannot be handled effectively. If Protoss had earlier AoE that wouldn't be a problem. Not saying that's the solution but it's a plausible one. Carrier was one of the possible tech path that you could of gone but it not mandatory. You can easily stick with dragoon and zealots but you got to add in arbiter and do recall to do damage/abuse mobility and statis tanks once the mech count get to high. Also going carrier depend on map too if you want best result you dont go them every game. Your response sounds like protoss MUST go carrier or reaver to deal with mech and that absolutely false. So in a way, it is exactly like how it is now. Medivac = Arbiter (drop/recall and similar tier). The main reason terran goes for gollaith was to stop shuttle zealots bomb on tanks not because of carriers. They only make a few and if they see carrier tech, they will make alot of golliath. Once golliath are out, reaver are not that great because shuttle become liability. Reaver and carrier were not necessary. Then late late game they can choose to get HT for storm which has a similar role to ghost. But the stable late game unit composition of a standard TvP would be zealot, dragoon, arbiter and HT generally. Looks very similar to marine marauder ghost medivac does it not? Large count of tier 1 unit combine with higher support units. Also protoss must abuse terran immobility and out expand him therefore he can out produce him (aka "make more stuff"). Iono about you, but the similarity of how the match has twisted is kinda funny. Terran uses to have the immobile unit composition, turtle, and do one big push while protoss has the mobile, can never engage once the mech ball get to big so they had to do drop and rely on tier 1 as back bone and have to out expand the terran. Now it swapped. Tier matter but people shouldnt be whining that just because they have tier 3 unit and it dies to a ton of tier 1 units that it imbalance. I am just trying to say that tier is hard to define and should not really be used to as a way to define balance. Like what is a thor? Tier 2? Tier 3? Tier 2.5? Viking tier 3? Expecially terran is where tier get hard to define.
OK, fair enough ^_^
I'm not into BW enough to be able to argue with this, so if someone else wants to then that's good for them 
Perhaps rather than talking about tiers all I should say is: Colossus/HTs take too long to reach to be able to effectively deal with the ultra-efficient Marines in the 1-1-1 push.
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On August 24 2011 03:04 Rob28 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I want to preface this post by saying that this is how I view the race compositions now. It's my opinion, I'm by no means a pro, so don't take it seriously. But this is why I feel the game is a bit screwed up. I've lumped units into class equivalencies, which I consider to be the roles the units play in army compositions. So here's my breakdown, none of which is set in stone, but it's just how I see things:
T1
Marine>Zelaot=Zerglings
Marine has ranged attack, can kite, and stimpack + health upgrades along with their usual ground army upgrades, so they sit as the better unit. Zealots charge is IMO on par with ling speed as far as usefulness goes, and you get 4 lings for the price of one z, so pretty even with each other.
Roach=Marauder>Stalker
Roaches and Marauders are by far the most antagonizing forces in their races armies. Conc shells and stim ability puts marauders on par with a Roach's ability to tank damage and move while burrowed, and though blink is useful, stalkers are just too weak in the DPS vs cost department in comparison.
Sentry>Baneling=Reaper
Forcefiled is probably the most important early game spell in the game, and so bumps up the ranking of sentries over the other T1 units of similar scope. Banelings are huge in ZvT and ZvZ, not so much in ZvP, and they die after use, so they are about equal with the harass potential reapers have.
T2
Hellions>Hydralisks
Pretty straighforward. Notice the lack of protoss unit for comparison.
Tanks>Immortal
Longer range, better harass potential, faster... pretty self-explainitory. Notice a lack of zerg unit filling the role of "field artillery".
Ghost=Infestor>HT
EMP fucks toss up, snipe fucks zerg up, AND the unit can cloak and nuke. Plus, it's the only one of the three that can attack sans energy. On the other side, fungal is probably the most OP spell in the game, and infested terran mineral line spawning is brutally effective. By comparison, HTs feedback and storm capabilities are mitigated by fast-moving armies, slow-moving HTs, and the removel of amulet (not to mention storm needing to be researched, and the fact that HTs are actually T3 units), and archon warp just consumes two expensive units for an OK tanking unit.
Mutalisk>Viking=Phoenix
Mutalisk wins, for sheer harass potential. Viking and phoenix on par, mostly balanced by phoenix speed vs viking ability to attack ground without a spell.
Banshee>Voidray>Corruptor
Banshees and voidrays both have massive harass skills, but since rays get nerfed seemingly non-stop, the edge goes to banshees with cloaking. Corruptors obviously have a hard time measuring up to the usefulness of the other two units.
Medivac>Warpprism=Overlord
Medivacs are crucial. Prisms and transporting overlords aren't. Prisms rarely see use, and nydus renders using overlords for tansport inefficient (sometimes but not always). As such, the rating stays as is.
T3
Broodlord>Carrier>Battlecruiser
Not hard to convince people that this sequence seems to fit.
Colossus>Thor>Ultralisk
Colossi are probably the only time Protoss have a big advantage in a unit set, as they just destroy T1 units with great range (after upgrade). Thors are ranked better than ultras for their ability to do well against air, and their overall versatility compratively.
Units not fitting a specific role
Dark Templar
Basically the only "real" harassing unit the protoss have. Pretty good, but when matched against other races for harass potential, they generally lose out. Also, after detection is available, no longer have much purpose.
Mothership
An expensive novelty unit, nothing more.
Archon
Decent tanks, but really weak to EMP and very expensive/time consuming to produce. As far as last ditch efforts to make use of energy-depleted HT or detected DTs, they are decent, but not game breaking, and usually not viable for sustained play, especially lategame when gas is rare.
Observer
IMO fills a similar role to the queen, in that it's a unit needed to manage the protoss forces rather than actually fight in army compositions. Not a good substitute for scanning though...
Raven
PDD and auto-turret are retardly good for harassment, especially when upgraded. The fact that ravens have become more common as big parts of new builds is a big indication of its power.
Queen
Critical unit, almost more of a part of the zerg base rather than a unit. Pretty shitty in a fight outside of rush/cheese defense.
Overseer
Novelties, needed for detection or some off the wall play, but not much else.
Conclusion
Wtf, why is terran not being nerfed (IMO)?
Things I generally disagree with about this post:
Roach=Marauder>Stalker
I'd argue that Marauder > Stalker = Roach. Burrow micro allows now more regen than blink to regen shields, roaches are supply inefficient, etc.
Hellions>Hydralisks
Entirely different utilities. The two really shouldn't be compared.
Tanks>Immortals
Entirely different utilities. Last I checked, Tanks would better be compared to Colossi (and Broodlords)
Mutalisk>Viking=Phoenix and Banshee>Voidray>Corruptor
Phoenix can lift off the ground, great for harassing queens, etc. Mutalisks attack ground and air. What these SHOULD be:
Phoenix >= Viking > Corruptor and Banshee = Mutalisk = Voidray
Medivac>Warpprism=Overlord
As a zerg player, I can't really agree here. 300/300 turns every necessary overlord into a free dropship (free because you HAVE to have them anyway). They're about equal to Pylons in that regard, you need them for supply and can choose to use them for harass. Personally, I'd remake it:
Overlord = Medivac > Warp Prism. Healing balances the necessity of Overlords and price.
Broodlord>Carrier>Battlecruiser and Colossus>Thor>Ultralisk
Again, Broodlord is essentially a siege unit, and should be compared to Colossi and Tanks. Carrier > Battlecruiser I'll agree with. Thors and Ultralisks really serve different utilities, one for AoE anti-air and one for AoE anti-ground.
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On August 24 2011 03:07 Techno wrote:
Mutas are better harassment options than Blue Flame Hellions. You only need a wall/1 turret/1 spore/1 cannon to stop BFH. The amount of units a Terran has to leave at home to defend Mutas past the 15 minute mark is about 2 thors, 16 marines and 1 or 2 medivacs.
1 cannon to stop BFH. Is that before or after they kill all the workers?
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On August 24 2011 04:33 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:07 Techno wrote:
Mutas are better harassment options than Blue Flame Hellions. You only need a wall/1 turret/1 spore/1 cannon to stop BFH. The amount of units a Terran has to leave at home to defend Mutas past the 15 minute mark is about 2 thors, 16 marines and 1 or 2 medivacs. 1 cannon to stop BFH. Is that before or after they kill all the workers?
1 spore to stop a BFH - is that... maybe with 1 turret, 1 spore AND 1 cannon you can kill hellions one by one
Also, hellions don't cost gas and integrate quite well as a tech unit
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On August 23 2011 22:44 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 05:13 SheaR619 wrote:On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
1. Terrible and wont solve anything. Why? If they go 1-1-1, why would you go for storm? You will auto lose to cloak banshee. If you invest into robo tech and storm tech, it will drain so much of your gas that you will probably not even get out HT in time (consider the wait time for HT energy as well). You are going to have alot of zealots due to the surplus of mineral and wont have any anti air. Your only hope is that 2 or 3 archon at the most. Also if he scout you going for this build, he wont go raven, he will just get more banshee. Dont forget, he will pull scv to repair as well so your feedback wont kill if they burn their energy cloaking back and forth. You obviously don't seem to realise that the large problem with 1-1-1 is still the marines, if you can kill the marines, the other stuff isn't so hard to deal with, but the timing it hits prevent you from getting more than one colossi with thermal (needed or else they will die to the banshees/tanks) or storm at its current time. Also just having the high templar to prevent him from going raven would actually be a good thing because then you could actually build more than a couple of stalkers in attempt to combat the banshees. Show nested quote +
2. Being able to get a cheaper and faster charge will literally break the game. Zerglings will become useless and +1 timing attack with zealots would wreck zerg. This will push PvZ into a linear state of massing roaches instead of the recent more diverse strategy of getting lings and infestors. Also, with the recent buff to archon, faster chargelots + archon will become ridiculously crazy strong.
Wow you have such a terribly narrow mindset. For one builds like this would be insanely easy to scout. Roaches do great against zealots, I really don't think you would have to mass them particularly hard, which would pretty much deter any Protoss from trying this build in the first place. Banelings do significant damage to zealots. Then there's spine crawlers which zealots are pretty terrible against, which you could defend with and abuse the fact that zealots can't shoot up and their low stalker numbers with mutas. Show nested quote +
3. If stalker attack speed is going to be increase to accommodate all the stuff you said, then they are going to literally break PvZ. Gateway unit suck by themselves but exponentially get better once they get paired up with each other. By increasing stalker like this, you will once again destroy PvZ if they are to become as strong as you suggest. Since PvZ is stalker heavy composition. It will also make collosi stronger because corruptors also sucks compare to viking at dealing with collosi and if the stalker have higher DPS, the corruptor will die in even stupider fashion. This make the protoss deathball exponentially stronger because stalker are stronger and collosi become harder to kill.
I stated that the damage to armoured would be similar or slightly higher. Note the word similar, meaning that this would not or would barely affect the damage that stalkers would do to corrupters and invalidates you whole point. Also you said as strong as I suggest. Maybe you didn't notice but I didn't actually suggest a specific increase, I just said that it should be changed, because specifics such as this cannot figured out with just theory, they have to be tested. My aim is to suggest possibilities WHERE changes should be made, not to just straight up make suggestions as to what should be done (except suggestion 4). Show nested quote +
4. Switching the PDD and SM will kill the raven role in the 1-1-1 and they will just do the variation without the raven. Once again, solves nothing but kill another possible variation. Raven already neglected enough, doubt they will see the light of day if SM and PDD get switch. I would rather get a reactor than a techlab on my starport in TvT if that was the case.
At least you can scout the variations without the raven with an observer and can adequately prepare for the correct all in(As adequately as possible anyway, most cases the Terran will still steamroll the Protoss). Protoss doesn't have any other way to efficiently scout which one is coming. Hallucination is too expensive in this situation and costs a lot of much needed FF energy. *Edit: Also I think Terrans would lose a lot less lategame TvZ's if they invested in the Raven to counter burrowed banelings.
1-1-1 is not impossible to stop so you dont need any cute unit idea or a buff or anything like that. It can already be stopped. The only problem is scouting it. That is all I am trying to say. The game lack scouting and that what should be looked at first although it hard to fix, it something that will not alter the game as much as the change you have suggested. The only suggestion I can think of that will not alter the game so drastically would be decrease build time on the robo bay or get rid of observer speed upgrade and just give it to them.
If PDD was switch with SM or charge was changed to get faster or get HT faster, none of these deal with the real issue and that scouting. They will also alter the game way to much and they might fix 1-1-1 but they might do more damage than good. If protoss can get charge much faster, it would kill any form of bio aggression. Early Bio aggression can already be neutralized pretty handly by FF and gateway unit pounding on them. If they can get charge faster and cheaper....that would completely kill terran ability to do any aggression. Do you even know the current meta game right now in TvP? It to turtle up into a big ball and then HT and ghost duke it out. That what happen when both side dont choose to do a 1 base all-in because if protoss good, terran can not do any damage with drop or pressure and protoss dont have to attack cause they are to pinned down from the drops and they can just turtle up into a death ball. This lead to passive 200-200 ball battle which is very passive and boring and one of the reason why blizzard made smaller map in the first place.
How will you know if a 1-1-1, bio push, or cloak banshee is coming? Have you seen MLG incontrol vs boxer, he faked a 2 rax push into a 1-1-1 and owned incontrol because his observer went into boxer base when boxer army was already siege outside his base. There was nothing he can do about it because of the lack of information. If 1-1-1 was IMPOSSIBLE to stop feasibly, then you alter the game to that extent by moving stuff around but first you must look at stuff that arent used (observer upgrade) and see how it can change if it is used or toggle with build times.
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On August 24 2011 03:04 Rob28 wrote:
Marine>Zelaot=Zerglings
Zealots and zerglings aren't equal. In a straight-up fight 100 minerals of zerglings beats 100 minerals of zealots with 50 minerals of zerglings left alive. To get better results, either you have to stutter-step micro your zealot and the lings must be un-micro'd. Or you have to have a positional advantage that allows at most two zerglings to hit the zealot at once. Of course if the zealot has a positional advantage then the zerglings don't have to engage.
Zealots, like all protoss units, don't get much done in a mono-unit comp. Unlike mass-marine or mass-ling, mass-zealot requires support units or and upgrade advantage to be useful.
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On August 24 2011 06:03 galivet wrote:Zealots and zerglings aren't equal. In a straight-up fight 100 minerals of zerglings beats 100 minerals of zealots with 50 minerals of zerglings left alive. To get better results, either you have to stutter-step micro your zealot and the lings must be un-micro'd. Or you have to have a positional advantage
Protoss is a race which heavily relies on positional advantage. While zerg relies on the opponent to make the mistakes by either getting out of position which would allow 100minerals of lings to beat 100minerals worth of zealots. So Protoss requires the positional advantage to be ahead.
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This may or may not have been discussed but I feel they are good ideas that need mentioning.
1. Lower chronoboost on each nexus to 50. NOT INTENDED to nerf 4gate or stargate play or anything of that nature, but to make protoss players use chronoboost more effieciently. No more being lazy, forgetting about spending chronoboost and spamming it.
2. Lower orbital command energy from 200/200 tok 100/100. Pretty much nerfing mules/scans. Forcing the terran player to be more active with their mules and not being able to spam 15 mules after forgetting about them in the late game.
3. Making Ultralisks a little smaller or improving the AI of them in a late game army.
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On August 24 2011 06:38 FluXen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:03 galivet wrote:On August 24 2011 03:04 Rob28 wrote:
Marine>Zelaot=Zerglings Zealots and zerglings aren't equal. In a straight-up fight 100 minerals of zerglings beats 100 minerals of zealots with 50 minerals of zerglings left alive. To get better results, either you have to stutter-step micro your zealot and the lings must be un-micro'd. Or you have to have a positional advantage Protoss is a race which heavily relies on positional advantage. While zerg relies on the opponent to make the mistakes by either getting out of position which would allow 100minerals of lings to beat 100minerals worth of zealots. So Protoss requires the positional advantage to be ahead.
which is stupid because this isn't mimicked by the other races. positional advantage doesn't so anything in the case of any other hard counter e.g. marauders vs stalkers, zealots vs roaches, mutas vs void rays.
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On August 24 2011 06:46 Ruyguy wrote:
This may or may not have been discussed but I feel they are good ideas that need mentioning.
1. Lower chronoboost on each nexus to 50. NOT INTENDED to nerf 4gate or stargate play or anything of that nature, but to make protoss players use chronoboost more effieciently. No more being lazy, forgetting about spending chronoboost and spamming it.
2. Lower orbital command energy from 200/200 tok 100/100. Pretty much nerfing mules/scans. Forcing the terran player to be more active with their mules and not being able to spam 15 mules after forgetting about them in the late game.
Same thing here.
3. Making Ultralisks a little smaller or improving the AI of them in a late game army.
You don't have to reduce the energy for Chronoboost, just implement a cooldown so unused Chronoboosts cannot be spammed in succession to make up for bad management. Same for Mules.
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On August 24 2011 06:49 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:46 Ruyguy wrote:
This may or may not have been discussed but I feel they are good ideas that need mentioning.
1. Lower chronoboost on each nexus to 50. NOT INTENDED to nerf 4gate or stargate play or anything of that nature, but to make protoss players use chronoboost more effieciently. No more being lazy, forgetting about spending chronoboost and spamming it.
2. Lower orbital command energy from 200/200 tok 100/100. Pretty much nerfing mules/scans. Forcing the terran player to be more active with their mules and not being able to spam 15 mules after forgetting about them in the late game.
Same thing here.
3. Making Ultralisks a little smaller or improving the AI of them in a late game army. You don't have to reduce the energy for Chronoboost, just implement a cooldown so unused Chronoboosts cannot be spammed in succession to make up for bad management. Same for Mules.
Also make larva despawn if still unused after 25 seconds, or alternatively cap the maximum number of larva that one hatchery can support at 8. A zerg shouldn't be able to spam up a bunch of units if they got lazy and forgot to use their larva, right?
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On August 24 2011 07:02 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:49 QTIP. wrote:On August 24 2011 06:46 Ruyguy wrote:
This may or may not have been discussed but I feel they are good ideas that need mentioning.
1. Lower chronoboost on each nexus to 50. NOT INTENDED to nerf 4gate or stargate play or anything of that nature, but to make protoss players use chronoboost more effieciently. No more being lazy, forgetting about spending chronoboost and spamming it.
2. Lower orbital command energy from 200/200 tok 100/100. Pretty much nerfing mules/scans. Forcing the terran player to be more active with their mules and not being able to spam 15 mules after forgetting about them in the late game.
Same thing here.
3. Making Ultralisks a little smaller or improving the AI of them in a late game army. You don't have to reduce the energy for Chronoboost, just implement a cooldown so unused Chronoboosts cannot be spammed in succession to make up for bad management. Same for Mules. Also make larva despawn if still unused after 25 seconds, or alternatively cap the maximum number of larva that one hatchery can support at 8. A zerg shouldn't be able to spam up a bunch of units if they got lazy and forgot to use their larva, right?
Well to argue your point, if a zerg is NOT lazy and has kept up on his larvae injects all game. Once at 200/200 he may have more larvae than needed with spending them all game long. You shouldn't nerf someone for keeping up on their larvae injects well.
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On August 24 2011 06:46 Ruyguy wrote:
2. Lower orbital command energy from 200/200 tok 100/100. Pretty much nerfing mules/scans. Forcing the terran player to be more active with their mules and not being able to spam 15 mules after forgetting about them in the late game.
MULEs aren't some magic comeback mechanic. That's like saying it doesn't matter when a Terran produces SCVs as long as he does it eventually. Don't drop MULEs and you'll be behind where you should be.
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On August 24 2011 07:05 Ruyguy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 07:02 galivet wrote:On August 24 2011 06:49 QTIP. wrote:On August 24 2011 06:46 Ruyguy wrote:
This may or may not have been discussed but I feel they are good ideas that need mentioning.
1. Lower chronoboost on each nexus to 50. NOT INTENDED to nerf 4gate or stargate play or anything of that nature, but to make protoss players use chronoboost more effieciently. No more being lazy, forgetting about spending chronoboost and spamming it.
2. Lower orbital command energy from 200/200 tok 100/100. Pretty much nerfing mules/scans. Forcing the terran player to be more active with their mules and not being able to spam 15 mules after forgetting about them in the late game.
Same thing here.
3. Making Ultralisks a little smaller or improving the AI of them in a late game army. You don't have to reduce the energy for Chronoboost, just implement a cooldown so unused Chronoboosts cannot be spammed in succession to make up for bad management. Same for Mules. Also make larva despawn if still unused after 25 seconds, or alternatively cap the maximum number of larva that one hatchery can support at 8. A zerg shouldn't be able to spam up a bunch of units if they got lazy and forgot to use their larva, right? Well to argue your point, if a zerg is NOT lazy and has kept up on his larvae injects all game. Once at 200/200 he may have more larvae than needed with spending them all game long. You shouldn't nerf someone for keeping up on their larvae injects well.
And just like zerg may need to stock larva to remax after a push, protoss may need to stock chronoboosts to remax more quickly after a push (by chronoing gateways). Terran may need to stock orbital energy to save up scans to push against DTs, or to drop mules after taking a new expansion. It's not always laziness or lack of skill that leads to energy buildup on a nexus or an OC; often it's a strategic decision. Example: pooling chrono early game to chain-chrono the warp gate upgrade, or attack/armor upgrades, or collosus building. Sometimes you need to save up to spend strategically. It's not like spawn larva where the skill boils down to hitting the buttons on a timer like a robot.
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Atm I think Infestors are too powerful , every stream/replay I watch of a Protoss they seem to just decimate the Protoss force for the Roachs/Lings to clean up. I really don't see why Blizzard removed the talisman thing for HT's yet have a similar upgrade for Infestors still in the game?
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On August 24 2011 04:33 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:07 Techno wrote:
Mutas are better harassment options than Blue Flame Hellions. You only need a wall/1 turret/1 spore/1 cannon to stop BFH. The amount of units a Terran has to leave at home to defend Mutas past the 15 minute mark is about 2 thors, 16 marines and 1 or 2 medivacs. 1 cannon to stop BFH. Is that before or after they kill all the workers?
Thats to stop the medivac cause your sim city stops everything on the ground. Or at least mine does
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EPT
