On July 11 2012 00:11 Mentalizor wrote: The topic: PvZ + Show Spoiler +
Lately, I've felt that PvZ changed (in the last 2-3 months). The winrate might not be terrible. But I feel the protoss player either has to do a 2base all in, something gimmicky (dt openings, prism or phoenix) to buy time to get a third. Or they will just be overrun.
If you see any tournaments lately all the best protoss players will go 2base all in - or very few will take a 3rd after getting a bunch of immortals and sentries. Given, protoss DOES have a huge variety of 2base all ins, making it hard for the zerg to prepare for all of them. But I feel that it wasn't the intention of the matchup... to be purely about P trying to overrun the Z before he gets out of control.
Both of the latest zerg buffs seem to twist this matchup in a way I think was not intended.
- The queen range was given to being able to defend creepspread - mostly against hellions. However, the new queen range makes it impossible to scout a zerg with probes after a queen is made. You can't even run along the edges of the creep anymore since it can easilly still gun you down. So while the protoss has to make up his mind on a 2base all in, he will not have a good way to tell if he's already being countered. Hallucinations are simply too expensive early on - and going Robo and observer, you've already invested too much to suddenly go for another tech.
- The ferrarilords. While the queen is doing a good job denying intel, the ferrarilord will easilly give it now. Stalkers and sentries simply haven't got enough dps to stop a good zerg (flying in at the right time from the right angles). Even if the protoss tris to hide/proxy the tech, it will still be worth the 100mins to know that something is up.
Basically Protoss needs a reliable answer to Infestor/BL/Corruptor/Spine, because then we can afford to play passive without setting ourselves up to get dominated in the lategame. Either nerf Infestor/BL or give us a good way of dealing with it. And no, Carriers are not the answer.
Why aren't Carriers the answer? Because of the long buildtime, even with chronoboost? If you started going carriers as soon as he starts going broodlord, and you wouldn't reveal the carrier-tech, you could easily get mass carriers by the time the infestor broodlord hits.
Because of the supply-cost? You don't need to build 2-5 carriers at the same time, one is enough, if you scout the broodlord-transition early enough. You can always throw in small pockets of blinkstalkers or warpzealots into the Zergs base, doing almost guaranteed damage, and doing guaranteed damage after the point of Zerg having only broodlord/infestor/spine in his army. This way you can throw away, let's say 12 supply at a time, and make 2 carriers at the same time.
Because you need so many to be cost-effektive? True, but Zerg also needs a shitton of broodlord to be "super-imbalanced". We are talking 10+ broodlors, which against you should be able to get 5 carriers, mothership, and stalkers. Also, photoncannons are sick good against any Zerg ground units, you need to make those at your isolated expansions to prevent ling/roach runbys.
Zerg really has no effektive anti-air against carrier/mothership army when the army hits a certain point. You should always aim at making carriers in late lategame PvZ imo, because they actually are good, once you start getting upgrades to them. 3/3 carriers shred corruptors while themselves taking no damage, and let's not even talk about hydralisk..
Also, in lategame, if you do not go carrier, you need to vortex the infestors. In the current metagame they are almost always clumped together, one good vortex and everyone is gone. This would mean free reign for stalkers upon the broodlords, which aren't really that good against mass blinkstalker without the fungal.
First off, Zerg has no problem beating a few Carriers. Just suicide Corruptors into them. Corruptors are cheaper and have the ability to turn into BLs, so even if you dont' trade effectively, the Protoss will never be able to remake his Carriers. Secondly, you can pop out 5 BLs the second you get a Greater Spire. At this point, the Protoss would be lucky to have a Carrier even in production, because they're expensive as hell and because you also need to be getting Archons, Colossi, and the Mothership.
Even with a lot of Carriers, a smart Zerg will beat you in a straight up engagement because Fungal+ ITs + Corruptors + reduced ground army supply means the Zerg just needs to take out the Carriers and you'll be forced to remax on Gateway units.
Harassing expansions should not work against a Zerg who litters his base/expos with Spines/Spores just like you want the Protoss to do with Cannons.
Zerg production will always be ahead of Protoss, and once you get your super 20 BL deathball, we pretty much just lose the game.
On July 10 2012 18:22 Orek wrote: OK guys, enough is enough. Enough with I play race A, and race B&C are OP. I start a new approach to the balance discussion. NERF YOUR OWN RACE
I play protoss&terran.
nerf protoss: Zealot charge now drains 5 shields per use (if no shields left, zealot cannot charge) nerf terran: planetary fortress now does 50% splash dmg to friendly units
OK guys, enough is enough. Enough with I play race A, and race B&C are OP. I start a new approach to the balance discussion. NERF YOUR OWN RACE
I am a Zerg player as you can check from my post history, and I am tired of defending Zerg. Zerg OP? Fine, I’m gonna nerf them myself.
ZERG Queen:Ground attack range reduced from 5 to 4. Creep Tumor: Spawning duration of Creep Tumor increased from 15 to 25. Cooldown remains 15. Creep: Creep recedes 50% faster. Larvae: Maximum number of larvae a hatchery can hold is reduced from 19 to 11. From 19 to 15 for lair. Remains 19 for hive. Infestor: Fungal growth no longer prevents target unit movements. It now slows movement speed of target units by 75%. Stalker's blink distance is quartered while being fungal growthed. Infested Terran: Damage reduced from 8 to 6. Broodlord/Overseer/Baneling: No longer hatch always with full health. When corruptor/overlord/zergling or morphing cocoon is damaged, new hatching unit is damaged accordingly. EDIT: Broodlord: supply cost increased from 4 to 6. (+4 when morphing from corruptor instead of +2) #Optional# Hydralisk: Removed from game.
##Blizzard felt early game Zerg was too vulnerable vs some all-ins and buffed queen range by 2, which messed up everything in ZvT. Then, why not take a step back and reduce it so that queens are still better than pre May patch yet has slightly shorter range than hellion/reaper. ##Wide spread of creep is the problem today right? Then, make active tumors visible longer so that diligent denial of creep is rewarded more. Zerg has harder time to jump new tumors without defending with units. ##Creep stays on ground for too long even after killing tumors or creeping overlord at expansions. Make them recede sooner so that queens can’t just come back to replace tumors 30seconds after you kill them. ##Zerg tech switch and instant production late game is too strong? Let’s keep maximum larvae available according to hatchery/lair/hive state. It is strange that a hatchery can hold the same amount of larvae as a hive. Make 2 injects maximum for hatchery 3+4+4=11, 3 injects for lair 3+4+4+4=15, and 4 injects for hive as it is 3+4+4+4+4=19. For more larvae, Zerg needs to either make multiple additional macro hatches or morph some hatcheries to lair. ##Oh my units are fungaled, no micro whatsoever for me!! Not any more. Units can still slowly move under fungal growth to escape, spread, or attack forward. Fast units like hellion or phoenix would still move faster than off creep queen under fungal growth. ##Marine itself is OP enough that extra 2 damage for infested terran doesn’t make sense. DPS is too good for 25 energy only unit. ##Infested Terrans hatch from eggs with reduced health according to the damage taken while in eggs. Broodlord/Overseer/Baneling always hatch with full health. Keep them damaged accordingly as well. EDIT:##While 1 or 2 Broodlords don't achieve much, 15 Broodlords with infestor support is nearly unstoppable. BL deathball becomes too powerful once it reaches critical mass. Incerasing the supply cost prevents maximum BL number unless Zerg decides to sacrifice supply in other units. ##This is optional, but hey, why not. It’s not like Zerg players use hydralisk outside ZvZ anyways. Remove them for the hell of it. Then, better creep spread is rewarded more for queen/infestor mobility.
MAP Introducing new maps to replace some of the big maps today
##As I have shown in another thread Map Size Hisotry & Analysis average map size has never become smaller since release. Bigger maps reward Zerg droning and mobility more than the other 2 races. So, for the first time in SC2 history, bring new smaller maps. Also, it is good for viewership experience because no-rush-15-min macro-fest is so much harder with smaller maps.
How do those sound, huh? I tried to buff Terran/Protoss as well, but it was so much easier to come up with the ideas for the race I play. So, follow me, NERF YOUR OWN RACE guys. Nothing to nerf from your race? What an excuse… That’s what OTHER 2 races feel about their race as well. If no one else has courage to bring out ideas to nerf their own race, whatever. Then, I will keep defending Zerg or make another thread for only nerfing own race. I would like to see Terran/Protoss players bringing out some ideas on the table. After all, you know about your race the best.
As I suggested in NERF YOUR OWN RACE, how about making BL supply 6 instead of current 4? It is not those first few BLs that are the problem, but critical mass of them. Making supply cost higher means, at 200/200, less BL or sacrificing infestor/corruptor supply if Zerg wants to keep mass BL army. If 6 supply is too harsh, maybe 5. Also, making fungal "slow" ability instead of "hold" ability might solve some problems. Slowing 50% is probably not enough as stim increase the speed 50% to negate it completely, so probably 75% or so would be good. Marines can be split under first fungal to avoid the entire ball hit by another fungal, ravens can still move forward under fungal to seeker missile, and Protoss army can back off a little from BL siege or short blink to approach BL depending on the situation. Right now, you cannot do much under fungal growth so no decision making is involved once fungaled. Slowing means you can still decide to move forward, spread, or back off, which promotes better decision making from player.
I would like to hear more NERF YOUR OWN RACE. Terran/Protoss got nerfed already enough so you can't come up with anything? Nah, you'd be surprised how other races feel about your race. You know your race better than other races.
On July 11 2012 00:39 Toastie.NL wrote: My problem with Fungal is how the Zerg gets to abuse the Pathing AI while the other player fights against the AI, any move command you give forces you to make at least 20 more commands just so your army isn't all balled up, while for the zerg, backing off (and thus forcing the opponent to clump) and sieging from 9,5 range, makes the opponent fight the AI while Zerg is in an (in theory) superstrong position:
If he attacks, move back, force a clump, fungal. If he defends, use superior range to force a response
That is why I dislike Fungal.
Zergs AI is a pain in the ass in every other situation though, because almost every unit of Zergs is really stupid. Queens and ultralisks especially.
On July 11 2012 00:11 Mentalizor wrote: The topic: PvZ + Show Spoiler +
Lately, I've felt that PvZ changed (in the last 2-3 months). The winrate might not be terrible. But I feel the protoss player either has to do a 2base all in, something gimmicky (dt openings, prism or phoenix) to buy time to get a third. Or they will just be overrun.
If you see any tournaments lately all the best protoss players will go 2base all in - or very few will take a 3rd after getting a bunch of immortals and sentries. Given, protoss DOES have a huge variety of 2base all ins, making it hard for the zerg to prepare for all of them. But I feel that it wasn't the intention of the matchup... to be purely about P trying to overrun the Z before he gets out of control.
Both of the latest zerg buffs seem to twist this matchup in a way I think was not intended.
- The queen range was given to being able to defend creepspread - mostly against hellions. However, the new queen range makes it impossible to scout a zerg with probes after a queen is made. You can't even run along the edges of the creep anymore since it can easilly still gun you down. So while the protoss has to make up his mind on a 2base all in, he will not have a good way to tell if he's already being countered. Hallucinations are simply too expensive early on - and going Robo and observer, you've already invested too much to suddenly go for another tech.
- The ferrarilords. While the queen is doing a good job denying intel, the ferrarilord will easilly give it now. Stalkers and sentries simply haven't got enough dps to stop a good zerg (flying in at the right time from the right angles). Even if the protoss tris to hide/proxy the tech, it will still be worth the 100mins to know that something is up.
Basically Protoss needs a reliable answer to Infestor/BL/Corruptor/Spine, because then we can afford to play passive without setting ourselves up to get dominated in the lategame. Either nerf Infestor/BL or give us a good way of dealing with it. And no, Carriers are not the answer.
Why aren't Carriers the answer? Because of the long buildtime, even with chronoboost? If you started going carriers as soon as he starts going broodlord, and you wouldn't reveal the carrier-tech, you could easily get mass carriers by the time the infestor broodlord hits.
Because of the supply-cost? You don't need to build 2-5 carriers at the same time, one is enough, if you scout the broodlord-transition early enough. You can always throw in small pockets of blinkstalkers or warpzealots into the Zergs base, doing almost guaranteed damage, and doing guaranteed damage after the point of Zerg having only broodlord/infestor/spine in his army. This way you can throw away, let's say 12 supply at a time, and make 2 carriers at the same time.
Because you need so many to be cost-effektive? True, but Zerg also needs a shitton of broodlord to be "super-imbalanced". We are talking 10+ broodlors, which against you should be able to get 5 carriers, mothership, and stalkers. Also, photoncannons are sick good against any Zerg ground units, you need to make those at your isolated expansions to prevent ling/roach runbys.
Zerg really has no effektive anti-air against carrier/mothership army when the army hits a certain point. You should always aim at making carriers in late lategame PvZ imo, because they actually are good, once you start getting upgrades to them. 3/3 carriers shred corruptors while themselves taking no damage, and let's not even talk about hydralisk..
Also, in lategame, if you do not go carrier, you need to vortex the infestors. In the current metagame they are almost always clumped together, one good vortex and everyone is gone. This would mean free reign for stalkers upon the broodlords, which aren't really that good against mass blinkstalker without the fungal.
First off, Zerg has no problem beating a few Carriers. Just suicide Corruptors into them. Corruptors are cheaper and have the ability to turn into BLs, so even if you dont' trade effectively, the Protoss will never be able to remake his Carriers. Secondly, you can pop out 5 BLs the second you get a Greater Spire. At this point, the Protoss would be lucky to have a Carrier even in production, because they're expensive as hell and because you also need to be getting Archons, Colossi, and the Mothership.
Even with a lot of Carriers, a smart Zerg will beat you in a straight up engagement because Fungal+ ITs + Corruptors + reduced ground army supply means the Zerg just needs to take out the Carriers and you'll be forced to remax on Gateway units.
Harassing expansions should not work against a Zerg who litters his base/expos with Spines/Spores just like you want the Protoss to do with Cannons.
Zerg production will always be ahead of Protoss, and once you get your super 20 BL deathball, we pretty much just lose the game.
If you play the game well enough, you should have the required 6 colossi when Zerg starts making broodlords, transferring all that money to being able to make carriers/GW-units/mothership. True, Zerg can kill a couple of carriers easily, thats why I said that you need to make more than a few, and maybe even hide them in your base before you have, lets say, 6. Why do you have to be making archons at the same second as Zerg is making broodlords? You should be able to kill 5 broodlords with only blink-stalker, if you get the blink before fungal.
How can a smart Zerg destroy carriers with IT? At that point they should have atleast 2/2, which makes them take almost zero damage against infested terrans. Also, you should have a mothership too, which makes you able to vortex some corruptors, taking away even possibly huge percentages of the Zerg anti-carrier damage. If you do the carrier switch the way I am suggesting it, they shouldn't even know that you have carriers, which makes the Zerg have way too few corruptors once he/you attacks.
Spines are ridicilously un-effective against 3/3 zealots, almost to the point of 1 spine < 1 zealot. If the Zerg has 5 spines at his expo, and you warp in 8 zealots, you will take down the spines with only a few losses.
If Zerg makes the super BL-deathball of 20 BL's, you are supposed to lose with ground units. If he makes 20 BL's and you have 7 carriers, he can't counter your army without losing the broodlords. After that, he will have to remax on corruptor to kill if your carriers, and you should be able to just warp stalkers and destroy him, because the 20-broodlord army takes so much money that he can't possibly be making many more broodlords after losing it and making ~20'ish corruptors.
my suggestion for nerfing late-game zerg, actually the ability to tech-switch so fast: limit the larva per hatch from 19 (i think that's the right number) to 8-9. this will force the zerg to get more macro hatches late-game (+queens) to maintain the same larva production.
I am a protoss player so i don't really know how this will affect early-to-midgame zerg.... but i consider this a good idea..
On July 11 2012 01:29 CreationSoul wrote: my suggestion for nerfing late-game zerg, actually the ability to tech-switch so fast: limit the larva per hatch from 19 (i think that's the right number) to 8-9. this will force the zerg to get more macro hatches late-game (+queens) to maintain the same larva production.
I am a protoss player so i don't really know how this will affect early-to-midgame zerg.... but i consider this a good idea..
I suggest different maximum larvae for hatchery/lair/hive. Blizzard's reasoning for 19 maximum today is probably 3 from natural generation + 4 injects. So, while keeping 4 maximum injects for hive, making 3 max for lair and 2 for hatchery might add some dynamics. Hive =19 Lair =15 Hatchery =11
I think it is very rare to float 2 inject worth of larvae in early-mid game at top level, so this change will only affect late game.
My original suggestion:
On July 10 2012 18:22 Orek wrote: OK guys, enough is enough. Enough with I play race A, and race B&C are OP. I start a new approach to the balance discussion. NERF YOUR OWN RACE
Larvae: Maximum number of larvae a hatchery can hold is reduced from 19 to 11. From 19 to 15 for lair. Remains 19 for hive. ##Zerg tech switch and instant production late game is too strong? Let’s keep maximum larvae available according to hatchery/lair/hive state. It is strange that a hatchery can hold the same amount of larvae as a hive. Make 2 injects maximum for hatchery 3+4+4=11, 3 injects for lair 3+4+4+4=15, and 4 injects for hive as it is 3+4+4+4+4=19. For more larvae, Zerg needs to either make multiple additional macro hatches or morph some hatcheries to lair.
On July 11 2012 01:29 CreationSoul wrote: my suggestion for nerfing late-game zerg, actually the ability to tech-switch so fast: limit the larva per hatch from 19 (i think that's the right number) to 8-9. this will force the zerg to get more macro hatches late-game (+queens) to maintain the same larva production.
I am a protoss player so i don't really know how this will affect early-to-midgame zerg.... but i consider this a good idea..
I suggest different maximum larvae for hatchery/lair/hive. Blizzard's reasoning for 19 maximum today is probably 3 from natural generation + 4 injects. So, while keeping 4 maximum injects for hive, making 3 max for lair and 2 for hatchery might add some dynamics. Hive =19 Lair =15 Hatchery =11
I think it is very rare to float 2 inject worth of larvae in early-mid game at top level, so this change will only affect late game.
On July 10 2012 18:22 Orek wrote: OK guys, enough is enough. Enough with I play race A, and race B&C are OP. I start a new approach to the balance discussion. NERF YOUR OWN RACE
Larvae: Maximum number of larvae a hatchery can hold is reduced from 19 to 11. From 19 to 15 for lair. Remains 19 for hive. ##Zerg tech switch and instant production late game is too strong? Let’s keep maximum larvae available according to hatchery/lair/hive state. It is strange that a hatchery can hold the same amount of larvae as a hive. Make 2 injects maximum for hatchery 3+4+4=11, 3 injects for lair 3+4+4+4=15, and 4 injects for hive as it is 3+4+4+4+4=19. For more larvae, Zerg needs to either make multiple additional macro hatches or morph some hatcheries to lair.
Giving 19 for Hive might give players some more reason to (finally) double up on their important tech structures (including Hive) in the late- late game so drops don't thrash their production. I'm just waiting for the first Zerg to realise this.
Regarding TvP (yes, some terrans still think it's broken), would removing zealot charge's autocast be too radical a change?
The problem I have with zealots is that in the lategame they are cheap, difficult to counter, a-move units that can change the course of a game and require amazing micro to stop. It wouldn't feel so bad losing to them if it at least took some skill to use them. In return for the nerf, give them a faster base speed after they are upgraded.
Thoughts? How would this affect the other two match-ups? Would it make terran too powerful?
On July 11 2012 02:07 mosfet wrote: Regarding TvP (yes, some terrans still think it's broken), would removing zealot charge's autocast be too radical a change?
The problem I have with zealots is that in the lategame they are cheap, difficult to counter, a-move units that can change the course of a game and require amazing micro to stop. It wouldn't feel so bad losing to them if it at least took some skill to use them. In return for the nerf, give them a faster base speed after they are upgraded.
Thoughts? How would this affect the other two match-ups? Would it make terran too powerful?
Autocast removal might as well be removal of the spell. You can't target 40 zealots every 15 seconds.
I would be in favor of losing 10 shields/hp per charge, so turning charge on becomes a decision instead of a given.
On July 11 2012 02:32 U_G_L_Y wrote: Why doesn't PDD work on roaches and broodlords? I can't see a legitimate reason for it... Do Zergs feel this would be unfair?
I remember a long long long time ago PDD works on broodlords, I guess its too op since PDD takes forever to deplete but I think just reducing the total shots it can block is better than removing it outright. Imagine how different the metagame would of changed.... instead of regressing into pure bio into vikings it would be something like marine tank ravens medivacs.... and that sounds pretty damn exciting
On July 11 2012 02:32 U_G_L_Y wrote: Why doesn't PDD work on roaches and broodlords? I can't see a legitimate reason for it... Do Zergs feel this would be unfair?
I remember a long long long time ago PDD works on broodlords, I guess its too op since PDD takes forever to deplete but I think just reducing the total shots it can block is better than removing it outright. Imagine how different the metagame would of changed.... instead of regressing into pure bio into vikings it would be something like marine tank ravens medivacs.... and that sounds pretty damn exciting
Including the role for the Hydralisk ; the fastest depleter of PDD!
On July 10 2012 17:08 Bagi wrote: I don't think the problem with zerg is their macro mechanics.
Hive tech zerg is just too cost effective, especially BL/infestor. Its pretty much the strongest army composition in the game right now, and especially terran does not have anything that can trade with it cost effectively unless the zerg makes a big mistake. You cannot give one race an automatic economic advantage, map control, fastest unit production and the strongest army as well. It doesn't make a shred of sense.
Nerf hive tech zerg (or rather the core of the problem, the infestor) and you'll see things balance themselves out much better.
I agree. Before 13 minute mark, Terran can in fact keep and even surpass zerg in supply. The reason is the zerg army strength is OP. The reason that Terran has to do economic damage to win is the best indication of it.
And remember, 90% of things that Zerg got in HOTS are Hive tech. Swarm host is tier 2 but ultra burrow charge, hydra speed upgrade, the powerful viper, and the new Nydus network are all Hive tech !!! All new and powerful things Zerg will get are Hive tech !!! So, if there isn't a complete rework of Zerg in HOTS, Zerg will continue to dominate the late-game in HOTS.
This HOTS design is as good as Diablo 3's game design.
no Terran cant right now. They cannot keep up or surpass Zerg supply right now in the midgame. The only reason why they are even close to Zergs supply right now is, that at 13min every Zerg is already spending his money on mass infestor (which costs 50/75 per supply and is among the most expensive units in the game), banelings (100/50 per supply - the most expensive unit in the game among others) and meanwhile bunkering money to get Broodlords or Ultras (among the most expensive units in the game) up, while the Terran is building mostly marines and marauders (50 and 50/12.5, two of the cheapes units in the game) and only sprinkling in some expensive medivacs and tanks (50/50 and 75/62.5).
So no, right now Terrans can't keep up at all and therefore get rolled by amounts of units that they can't deal with, even though their composition is fine.
You have a very good point, which I think it's valid if the Zerg wants to get ahead in supply.
But I have seen many times recently in GSL and other tournaments that same supply + perfect split of marine marauder still lead to Terran's defeat. The army strengths of the same supply of terran and zerg are just imbalanced.
I think the problem is infestor. If the Zerg doesn't get infestor, then the same supply Terran army can have a good chance defeating the Zerg army. However, if Zerg goes infestor, which most Zergs do, then the army strength of Zerg will just be much stronger than Terran's. Here is the best example that shows this: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67594/?set=2&lang=
When July doesn't go infestor, the two army trades equally, but when the infestors come in, even July is like 80 supply behind, July can still fend off Yoda's attack several times with pure infestors.
I think the best solution for infestor is to bring backthe projectile of fungal growth. Now the fungal is an instant hit, but it was not like that in older versions. In this way, infestor is the same powerful as before, but it requires Zerg players to do some extra micros to get the fungal hits. Here is a video showing the projectile of fungal growth, which is in the game before:
On July 11 2012 02:32 U_G_L_Y wrote: Why doesn't PDD work on roaches and broodlords? I can't see a legitimate reason for it... Do Zergs feel this would be unfair?
Balance aside, roach part is probably because it is not projectile type attack. I don't exactly know how point defense drone works storywise, but if it is like catching a ball, then it makes sense not to be able to catch liquid.
By the way, now that queen ground attacks are projectile, PDD blocks them after last patch.
I don't think it is unfair even if PDD works on BL or roach. In fact, PDD wasting energy on BL broodlings instead of corruptor attacks would probably favor Zerg. PDD used to work vs BL broodlings a while ago.
Story wise, it makes more sense for PDD to work on broods and Not corruptors with their acid attack. It just feels like Zerg can tech switch to roach vs mech for negligible cost but terran cant tech switch out. PDD can only block so many shots so the roaches wouod still do a lot of damage in packs, even with zero AA support ....
On July 11 2012 00:48 Jarree wrote: nerf terran: planetary fortress now does 50% splash dmg to friendly units
It was already established a long time ago that this would make planetaries ridiculously useless because they would kill their own workers more often than they would protect them.
On July 11 2012 00:48 Jarree wrote: nerf terran: planetary fortress now does 50% splash dmg to friendly units
It was already established a long time ago that this would make planetaries ridiculously useless because they would kill their own workers more often than they would protect them.
I think you kind of butchered my post by quoting only that part
On July 10 2012 17:08 Bagi wrote: I don't think the problem with zerg is their macro mechanics.
Hive tech zerg is just too cost effective, especially BL/infestor. Its pretty much the strongest army composition in the game right now, and especially terran does not have anything that can trade with it cost effectively unless the zerg makes a big mistake. You cannot give one race an automatic economic advantage, map control, fastest unit production and the strongest army as well. It doesn't make a shred of sense.
Nerf hive tech zerg (or rather the core of the problem, the infestor) and you'll see things balance themselves out much better.
I agree. Before 13 minute mark, Terran can in fact keep and even surpass zerg in supply. The reason is the zerg army strength is OP. The reason that Terran has to do economic damage to win is the best indication of it.
And remember, 90% of things that Zerg got in HOTS are Hive tech. Swarm host is tier 2 but ultra burrow charge, hydra speed upgrade, the powerful viper, and the new Nydus network are all Hive tech !!! All new and powerful things Zerg will get are Hive tech !!! So, if there isn't a complete rework of Zerg in HOTS, Zerg will continue to dominate the late-game in HOTS.
This HOTS design is as good as Diablo 3's game design.
no Terran cant right now. They cannot keep up or surpass Zerg supply right now in the midgame. The only reason why they are even close to Zergs supply right now is, that at 13min every Zerg is already spending his money on mass infestor (which costs 50/75 per supply and is among the most expensive units in the game), banelings (100/50 per supply - the most expensive unit in the game among others) and meanwhile bunkering money to get Broodlords or Ultras (among the most expensive units in the game) up, while the Terran is building mostly marines and marauders (50 and 50/12.5, two of the cheapes units in the game) and only sprinkling in some expensive medivacs and tanks (50/50 and 75/62.5).
So no, right now Terrans can't keep up at all and therefore get rolled by amounts of units that they can't deal with, even though their composition is fine.
You have a very good point, which I think it's valid if the Zerg wants to get ahead in supply.
But I have seen many times recently in GSL and other tournaments that same supply + perfect split of marine marauder still lead to Terran's defeat. The army strengths of the same supply of terran and zerg are just imbalanced.
I think the problem is infestor. If the Zerg doesn't get infestor, then the same supply Terran army can have a good chance defeating the Zerg army. However, if Zerg goes infestor, which most Zergs do, then the army strength of Zerg will just be much stronger than Terran's. Here is the best example that shows this: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67594/?set=2&lang=
When July doesn't go infestor, the two army trades equally, but when the infestors come in, even July is like 80 supply behind, July can still fend off Yoda's attack several times with pure infestors.
I think the best solution for infestor is to bring backthe projectile of fungal growth. Now the fungal is an instant hit, but it was not like that in older versions. In this way, infestor is the same powerful as before, but it requires Zerg players to do some extra micros to get the fungal hits. Here is a video showing the projectile of fungal growth, which is in the game before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peczyb3csD8
Not only does that seem like a good idea but it's also much more appealing visually.
EPT
Bring some ideas - I'm clueless 
