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On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man.
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On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game.
The only people who don't think WG is broken are in denial. Gate way units being "weak" is a cop out used by people who realize there is no logical explanation for the balance of WG.
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On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man.
obv.,
see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play.
And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none)
Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup.
Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss)
The only people who don't think WG is broken are in denial. Gate way units being "weak" is a cop out used by people who realize there is no logical explanation for the balance of WG.
By that argument you state that WG can never be balanced? how does this make sense.
Obv. if you decrease the the power of gateway units or increase there cost high enough.
It will always result into a switch from supposed to be OP to supposed to be UP therefore the will also be a state were it will be considered balanced.
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On April 26 2012 03:15 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man. obv., see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play. And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none) Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup. Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss)
Are you only specifically talking about PvZ? Because I've seen colossus determine a lot of TvPs recently.
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On April 26 2012 03:15 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man. obv., see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play. And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none) Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup. Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss)
I think your analysis is completely off the mark. PvZ changed after both the map pool changed and Blizzard practically guaranteed the third with the spore crawler change (dramatically reducing air play's viability) and infestor buffs. Up to that point it appeared almost unsolveable for zergs. Right now, zergs are able to get a level of Eco and thus be so deadly vP hitting windows before tech comes into play effectively. On the flipside, balanced PvZ now requires a certain sort of map with a relatively easy to grab third; otherwise, you start seeing issues with mutapacks.
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On April 26 2012 01:23 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:17 Shiori wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Only if you remove smart-fire. Terran lategame is 'shit' because Terrans REFUSE to use their LATEGAME STUFF in the lategame. No shit Marines with 45 HP in a battle are going to die when AoE comes at bigger numbers!? Tadam. I have yet to see use of Battlecruisers, Ravens, Ghosts, Thors as a transition into the lategame. Why doesn't anybody use those? Ravens are awesome. Also, start playing random because you are biased as fuck. THe only crybaby in here is you.
Terrans "refuse" to use their late game because it is shit. That is the reason that it sucks. It is not as though Terrans have tried to use Battlecruisers, Ravens, Ghosts (not lategame, and they are shit anyway), or Thors. In the rare situation it will work. Vast majority of the time it is a waste, as, for instance, the High Templar counters every single one of the units you mentioned.
You make it out as though terrans say their late game is crap because they don't use it, but in reality it is the other way round. Most say that because they have no other option BESIDES upgraded MMM or Mech.
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On April 26 2012 03:15 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man. obv., see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play. And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none) Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup. Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss) Show nested quote +
The only people who don't think WG is broken are in denial. Gate way units being "weak" is a cop out used by people who realize there is no logical explanation for the balance of WG.
By that argument you state that WG can never be balanced? how does this make sense. Obv. if you decrease the the power of gateway units or increase there cost high enough. It will always result into a switch from supposed to be OP to supposed to be UP therefore the will also be a state were it will be considered balanced.
You have like 0 understanding. Balance isn't fully based on cost and "strength". The biggest "strength" to gateway units is WG mechanic, being able to warp in anywhere on the map. Being able to negate travel time. Being able to place units behind enemy lines, maybe in their own base, etc, etc. Positioning and timing are huge in RTS games and WG breaks both of those. WG would be broken in any RTS, it's just a bad concept from the start. It'd be alright as a super powerup thing like they had in C&C. Anyways, please tell me that chargelot, archon, HT, DT is weak. Please, I want a good laugh.
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On April 26 2012 03:44 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:15 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man. obv., see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play. And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none) Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup. Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss)
The only people who don't think WG is broken are in denial. Gate way units being "weak" is a cop out used by people who realize there is no logical explanation for the balance of WG.
By that argument you state that WG can never be balanced? how does this make sense. Obv. if you decrease the the power of gateway units or increase there cost high enough. It will always result into a switch from supposed to be OP to supposed to be UP therefore the will also be a state were it will be considered balanced. You have like 0 understanding. Balance isn't fully based on cost and "strength". The biggest "strength" to gateway units is WG mechanic, being able to warp in anywhere on the map. Being able to negate travel time. Being able to place units behind enemy lines, maybe in their own base, etc, etc. Positioning and timing are huge in RTS games and WG breaks both of those. WG would be broken in any RTS, it's just a bad concept from the start. It'd be alright as a super powerup thing like they had in C&C. Anyways, please tell me that chargelot, archon, HT, DT is weak. Please, I want a good laugh.
If we had to build them from Gateways they certainly would be. Every timing would be delayed by at least a minute, and considering every race can already defend Protoss all-ins if they react accordingly, this would make them near enough useless.
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On April 26 2012 03:44 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:15 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man. obv., see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play. And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none) Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup. Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss)
The only people who don't think WG is broken are in denial. Gate way units being "weak" is a cop out used by people who realize there is no logical explanation for the balance of WG.
By that argument you state that WG can never be balanced? how does this make sense. Obv. if you decrease the the power of gateway units or increase there cost high enough. It will always result into a switch from supposed to be OP to supposed to be UP therefore the will also be a state were it will be considered balanced. You have like 0 understanding. Balance isn't fully based on cost and "strength". The biggest "strength" to gateway units is WG mechanic, being able to warp in anywhere on the map. Being able to negate travel time. Being able to place units behind enemy lines, maybe in their own base, etc, etc. Positioning and timing are huge in RTS games and WG breaks both of those. WG would be broken in any RTS, it's just a bad concept from the start. It'd be alright as a super powerup thing like they had in C&C. Anyways, please tell me that chargelot, archon, HT, DT is weak. Please, I want a good laugh.
Ofc it is.
A Protoss will never be able to engage you with more than you have stuff if you don't skip units and play greedy.
(whole reason why Warpgate Timings work and not because Gateway units are good in themselves.)
(WG are there to allow protoss a different style of play people have to accept that.)
Warpgates in its current balance state are needed to keep the the opponent honest and not play to overly greedy.
Protoss has nothiing else in the arsenal that even comes close to this.
Terran has his harass and tech, Zerg his larva and Protoss his warpgate timings and specialised units.
I wouldn't even care about warpgate removal, but people will then have to realise that Protoss without Warpgates will underpowered alot.(and even this is denied by alot!) Zerg will be able to drone even more, Terran can be even more greedy and Protoss will become even less aggressive and more of a turtle?
A warpgate removal will always have to come in pair with a Gateway Units buffs:
In buildtime,
cost and
unit movement speed.
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On April 26 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:44 SupLilSon wrote:On April 26 2012 03:15 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On April 26 2012 02:42 freetgy wrote:On April 26 2012 01:33 Hoodlum wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Hmmm as a High Masters Terran player I feel like your completely mistaken... Terran has their strengths (marines w/ medivac good unit xD) that your ignoring while dogging the other races. First off, if this game was as imbalanced as you think it is why are different races consistently on top. How come Terran can still win stuff if these mechanics are so bad. Ya larva injects are nice but the reason why they weren't in brood war was because their units were so much stronger. Browder wanted a more swarmy feel to zerg so he nerfed their units and gave them larva inject. Warp gate is a pain in the ass for sure but like the guy said earlier, warp gate units are a joke. If you want to complain about protoss then complain about the three sets of aoe that have in the late game not something as rediculous as warp gate. Its annoying but not that great. In my honest opinion Terran has an interesting factor that no other race has. We have the ability to play perfectly. Let me explain... In any of the tvp or tvz matchup zerg and protoss play for terran mistakes. If we make a mistake then they can rofl stomp us (caught unseiged vz or missed emps vt) but if Terran plays perfectly, if I don't get caught unseiged or if I don't get suprised by a tech switch (just scout) if I nail my emps and focus down collosi with vikings etc then Terran rofl stomps ezpz. Its hard to play perfectly don't get me wrong but wouldn't you rather be the decider of the game then to be the guy praying that his opponent makes a mistake. That is why I play Terran! so much truth, Warpgates are a non issue, because all races are still limited in ressources. If a protoss goes for attack he has ressource limited warp-in potential. (why is it that both Zerg and Terran Maxx out earlier for example?) Warpgate would only be OP if Gateway Units were on par with Terran oder Zerg T1 units, which they are not. They are god awful. Protoss is the most reliant race on hitting AoE Spells, thats why they have got so many units with splash. Zerg already has the better transition into a deathball then Protoss and Terran will really good micro (good and many emps!) can beat even HT / Colossus Deathballs easily (but less forgiving, still Terran is in most times in control of this. If anyone saw White-Ra yesterday play on Metrolopolis vs. Terran will understand this. Without AoE protoss has no chance to win any engagement after mid / late game. The only time were Protoss Deathball gets OP is if the opponent is a bad player, thus mistakes (bad unit composition, bad positioning, bad micro) hurt alot more vs. AoE Spells. Which is why forums are so full of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. Are you telling me that most balance complaints are really just players who make mistakes and then blames the game for it? You sir are a mad man. obv., see how Protoss players for example struggle so much vs. Z in both greedy economic play and fast max out play. And only two players can just flip a match upside down alot infavor of Z (DRG, Stephano). Which was considered so much in favor of Protoss that Zerg players flamed night and day vs. 2 base turtle style play. How OP Colossus play is, how many pro games do you say these days decided by Colossus? (almost none) Zerg Tier 3 was considered absolutely useless back then, today they are a staple of the matchup. Most of these tools were in the game from the beginning but players just did not want to use it. (roach hydra corrupter for the win! these were some good days for protoss)
The only people who don't think WG is broken are in denial. Gate way units being "weak" is a cop out used by people who realize there is no logical explanation for the balance of WG.
By that argument you state that WG can never be balanced? how does this make sense. Obv. if you decrease the the power of gateway units or increase there cost high enough. It will always result into a switch from supposed to be OP to supposed to be UP therefore the will also be a state were it will be considered balanced. You have like 0 understanding. Balance isn't fully based on cost and "strength". The biggest "strength" to gateway units is WG mechanic, being able to warp in anywhere on the map. Being able to negate travel time. Being able to place units behind enemy lines, maybe in their own base, etc, etc. Positioning and timing are huge in RTS games and WG breaks both of those. WG would be broken in any RTS, it's just a bad concept from the start. It'd be alright as a super powerup thing like they had in C&C. Anyways, please tell me that chargelot, archon, HT, DT is weak. Please, I want a good laugh. If we had to build them from Gateways they certainly would be. Every timing would be delayed by at least a minute, and considering every race can already defend Protoss all-ins if they react accordingly, this would make them near enough useless.
Well good thing you don't.. Talking to protoss about WG is as painful as talking evolution to a creationist.
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On April 26 2012 04:05 SupLilSon wrote:
Well good thing you don't.. Talking to protoss about WG is as painful as talking evolution to a creationist.
That's not true because Warpgates were the biggest issue in PvP and not in the other matchups.
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On April 26 2012 03:44 SupLilSon wrote:
You have like 0 understanding. Balance isn't fully based on cost and "strength". The biggest "strength" to gateway units is WG mechanic, being able to warp in anywhere on the map. Being able to negate travel time. Being able to place units behind enemy lines, maybe in their own base, etc, etc. Positioning and timing are huge in RTS games and WG breaks both of those. WG would be broken in any RTS, it's just a bad concept from the start. It'd be alright as a super powerup thing like they had in C&C. Anyways, please tell me that chargelot, archon, HT, DT is weak. Please, I want a good laugh.
You do know that warpgates can't warp in just "anywhere" as you so put it, but only into powerfields, right? You also know that reactors and larva inject exist, yet somehow protoss is the only one capable of fast armies? As for "Negate travel time"? Please... toss is the slowest moving units of any army. If you're caught out of position, your fault mate.
Also chargelot, Archon, HT and DT would like a word with Marauders, ghosts and scans accordingly, thanks.
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The 2 posts above this prove my point pretty nicely.
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On April 26 2012 04:27 SupLilSon wrote:
The 2 posts above this prove my point pretty nicely.
This is TL, not the Bnet forums. Make an argument or stop posting. Don't just say inflammatory things for no reason.
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On April 26 2012 04:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 04:27 SupLilSon wrote:
The 2 posts above this prove my point pretty nicely. This is TL, not the Bnet forums. Make an argument or stop posting. Don't just say inflammatory things for no reason.
Sorry, I can't really argue against absurd claims, using logical responses. So I guess I'll just take my leave from this thread. DOTA2 is a better game anyways, no WG or Protoss.
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On April 26 2012 04:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 04:27 SupLilSon wrote:
The 2 posts above this prove my point pretty nicely. This is TL, not the Bnet forums. Make an argument or stop posting. Don't just say inflammatory things for no reason.
SupLilSon has a solid history of balance whining about protoss. Don't expect to many rational arguments out of him on the subject. WG is is not more of an issue than the speed boost for zerg for being on creep or swapable add-ons for terran.
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On April 26 2012 04:40 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 04:31 Shiori wrote:On April 26 2012 04:27 SupLilSon wrote:
The 2 posts above this prove my point pretty nicely. This is TL, not the Bnet forums. Make an argument or stop posting. Don't just say inflammatory things for no reason. Sorry, I can't really argue against absurd claims, using logical responses. So I guess I'll just take my leave from this thread. DOTA2 is a better game anyways, no WG or Protoss.
i am sure you will find something to whine about 
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Problem: It is very difficult to see what is being made from multiple morphing Zerg eggs (for the zerg player himself; not the opponent).
Solution: Have an icon of some sort appear in the units selected area that indicates what sort of unit each egg is going to morph into. For example, there could simply be a letter in the corner of the egg corresponding to the hotkey for morphing that unit (similarly to how Terran add-ons make a building have an R or T in the corner).
Side Effects: Maybe reduce the skill cap? Definitely be a little messier for the visuals.
I feel like this isn't a big change, or one that will be especially game-changing at high levels. I'm sure that pro Zergs know exactly what they build and what to do with it. However, I feel like this is a feature that is a little friendlier to the lower levels.
Example: A mid-game Zerg wants to use a bunch of his larvae to build assorted units. Creepy Zerg voice informs him that he is out of supply and needs to build additional overlords. Half-a-battle later, Zerg attempts to build more units, and is again informed that he needs to build additional overlords. Zerg player thinks: "Hmm. Did my overlords hatch and I already need more, or have they not hatched yet and I don't really need to build more, because they should be done within ten seconds or so?" Zerg player really has no viable way to find out whether overlords are being produced, short of clicking on every egg and seeing if it is an overlord. This is, of course, very tedious and time-consuming and he would overall be better off just making a few more overlords regardless of the presence or absence of currently morphing overlords.
With the suggested change it would really only be a little easier to find out in this particular circumstance. Here you would have to go to a hatchery (or several hatcheries in close proximity), Ctrl-click an egg, and then you would be able to see from the icons if there were any overlords being morphed. It would be possible that no overlords are within those eggs, but still being morphed in a location that was not close enough to be picked up by the Ctrl-click.
A Further solution to this sub-problem might be to have another global button on the hatchery to Select Eggs (similar to the Select Larvae button). This would let the Zerg player see all of his eggs (without even having to relocate the field of view to a hatchery; it could be done just using hotkeys) and see what is currently morphing. I am not sure whether I like the idea of having a Select Eggs button; as there are already enough buttons to press at the Hatchery. But perhaps it wouldn't be so big of a deal.
Comparing this idea to other races, it doesn't seem like an overbeneficial feature, since they can see very easily whether a pylon is warping in or a supply depot is under construction, and by pressing the hotkey(s) for their production facilities, they can tell which of their buildings is building Something, and I would think that they can usually remember which unit they attempted to build from which building.
I think that if there is any significant implication for high level play, it would be a lot easier to set individual rally points for different kinds of units. The most obvious case is sending overlords to a different location than the rest of the army. But it could be particularly useful for, say, corruptors that you wanted to morph into broods, or infestors that you would want to keep in a not-quite-so-exposed location, or mutas that you wanted to send close to the intended target. Again, this doesn't seem like an unfair advantage, since each Protoss or Terran building can be rallied to its own declared spot, if there is such a preferance for where these units go after production is complete.
Edit: Sorry for the really long post, I felt like if I say as much as I had thought about it, then it would save time and confusion from people asking for clarifications or whatnot.
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On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game.
What if Protoss had mules, scan, supply drop, and could fly their buildings and make planetary fortresses?
One race can defend better because they can expand inside their own base and then float it out, can mine better because they can call down a mule anywhere, scan anywhere, (forgot detection? no problem!) and drop supply. What if Protoss could lower and raise pylons? I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduced into ANY RTS game!!!
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On April 26 2012 01:23 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:17 Shiori wrote:On April 26 2012 01:08 teamhozac wrote:On April 25 2012 20:05 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 16:50 50bani wrote:On April 25 2012 12:24 usethis2 wrote:
Stop talking as if Warp Gates are a balance problem, because even if it was it would not go away. It is what defines the Protoss race in SC2 and Blizzard will not give up this unique/cool concept.
And exactly the same arguments can made for Spawn larvae. Zerg units have inferior stats per cost and generally don't have much synergy between them. (most of them are designed for "counter") Why do you think that should be the case? If you think Stalkers are made weak because of Warp Gates, then imagine 30 stalkers popping out after a big battle. How about 10 Colossi at once. Zerg units have to be weaker because they're easily massed.
You can make every race like Terran, sure. It'll be easier to balance. But then you will end up with mirror-like games in all match-ups. As much as warping and larvae-spawning seem problematic, the game needs to be balanced around them in order to have variety and fun. What if Terran had WG instead of Protoss? Do you see a problem here? One race can attack better and defend better at the same time because WG removes travel distance, as well as gain a unit round by instand warp-in followed by build time cooldown. I don't see how this doesn't look game braking to you. Just think of what this would do if introduce into any RTS game. Terran bio is way more mobile than Protoss. How would that be equivalent? The races are unique, what part of this do you not understand? I mean what if I started talking about "what if Terran had larva and could produce 20 scvs at once! Think of what larva would do in any RTS game. I don't see how this doesn't look game breaking to you." Yes, all races have "gamebreaking mechanics" if you haven't noticed. These are exactly the things that make the game interesting and fun to play. The "different races are different" argument is so stupid. Yeah no shit they are different, if something is overpowered and abusive, regardless of what race it belongs to, it shouldnt be in the game, period. Everyone whined about mules being OP but they are 100% necessary in order for Terran to keep up with zerg/protoss economy, even with them, we cant keep up, you will always have more income and supply than us in the first ten minutes of the game unless we do some crazy double/triple expand or we apply pressure, which basically every terran does now, realizing it is the only way to win, constantly attack Z and P. And what "gamebreaking" mechanic does Terran have? Mules? please. Not to mention, they NERFED the mule on gold minerals, so all the crybabies got partially what they wanted. Mules are not even that great until they very late game when you have like 5 orbitals and you can cut scvs. Most of the time anyways the Terran will lose if it gets to that point as late game terran = trash. Once again due to mechanics such as warpgate and larva inject, late game heavily favors zerg/protoss. Why zerg or protoss NEED warpgate and larva inject is beyond me, yeah they are cool mechanics for the races, but fair? Not so sure. I am not sure why players feel they ABSOLUTELY need these mechanics to stay alive when they were not even in broodwar, nor was chronoboost. I propose removing chronoboost, removing MULE, removing larva inject, and removing warpgate... this goes along with the "Breadth of Gameplay" thread, it would make armies smaller, micro more important, etc. Whos with me? Only if you remove smart-fire. Terran lategame is 'shit' because Terrans REFUSE to use their LATEGAME STUFF in the lategame. No shit Marines with 45 HP in a battle are going to die when AoE comes at bigger numbers!? Tadam. I have yet to see use of Battlecruisers, Ravens, Ghosts, Thors as a transition into the lategame. Why doesn't anybody use those? Ravens are awesome. Also, start playing random because you are biased as fuck. THe only crybaby in here is you.
All of those units except the ghost SUCK in TvP that is why no one uses them, maybe you should play (at all?) since you are the most unintelligible person on this forum, shown clearly by your posts
User was temp banned for this post.
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